turbo v superchared hmmm

jlosau03 · 06-05-2007, 11:56 PM

hey guys im lookin at supercharging or turboing my au3 ford
i was looking for the cheaper but best way ...anny suggestions on wat u recon ?
cheers..lads

JC · 07-05-2007, 12:02 AM

Cheapest for a good power incerase is supercharging; a full Capa kit is around $6k. Although a low priced turbo kits (around $3k from Snort) might be worth a look - expect to pay a few extra $$$ for exhaust, etc and you'll only get around 150rwkw.

You really need to work out what you want; ie when you want power etc, as each works differently.

jlosau03 · 07-05-2007, 12:14 AM

ah i c yeah atm i have pacemaker heeaders running with a lukey sports exhaust system in it and ive put a xr8 bigger snorkle and a k & n pannel filter on it running through with stainless steel piping...hmmm cheers man

The Monty · 07-05-2007, 07:29 AM

KKK K27 600hp Racing Turbo $1800
Snort log style manifold
38mm External wastegate
Dump pipe
600x300x76 intercooler
Intercooler piping
All these cam together ^^^^^^
32lb injectors $300
Rising rate fuel reg 2:1 $90.00
Pod Filter $100.00
3 inch Exhaust $450
Boost gauge $45.74
AFR gauge $62.50
Gauge holder $96.50
Deliveries $127

Total $3071.74

All I need is a unichip ($300), a catch can ($50), and fitting (doing all with forum members) and tuning (say around $500-$1000), so all up will be well under $5000. Much cheaper then a supercharger.
As for expected power, these are some figures others are pulling:
308 rwkw I6 Sedan Auto- Dansedgli
189 rwkw I6 Sedan Auto - Nudge
178.6 rwkw I6 Sedan Auto - AU-Steve
162 rwkw I6 sedan auto - TURBOTAXI
163.6rwkw EB Falcon Turbo 4.0L (3psi) -- SnyperEB
179.0rwkw EF Falcon Turbo 4.0L (6psi) -- EFFalcon
181.3rwkw EA Falcon Turbo, EL 4.0L -- Sundeep
183.0rwkw EB Falcon Turbo, --------- EVLELF
184.9rwkw AIT EA Falcon Turbo-------Dansedgli
188.6rwkw supercharged EA 4.0L ----- Rmyers
190.3rwkw Supercharged EF XR6 ------Obriza
202.1rwkw EB Falcon Turbo 4.0L------ Dansedgli
203.7rwkw EB XR6 turbo -> 6.2psi-----Rollin
232 rwkw ED Futura Turbo 4.0L------ EDturbo (mickmalta)
235 rwkw EF Falcon Turbo 4.0L-------Stevo_538
275 rwkw eb t/c falcon 4lt------------ EB SIX ON BOOST
287.4rwkw EL Falcon turbo 4.0l -------Fritzz
298.8rwkw EA Falcon turbo ---------- Turbo Tony (previous car)
335.8kw EB 4.0 Falcon Turbo --------------- ebs_4l
340.1rwkw EA Falcon T/C ------------ EASPRINT
357rwkw EA Falcon turbo 4.ol---------ea ba turbo
380rwkw@12psi EB Falcon turbo--------- Stevo_538
398.7rwkw EA falcon Turbo ----------- Turbo Tony (Caravan tower)
451.3rwkw EL XR6 Turbo --------------- PYROAY (427rwkw street tune)
460rwkw ED Falcon 4.0 Turbo -------- TUFED6

All are above 150RWKW, so that would be an extremely conservative figure. You would only need extremely low boost to acheive that figure.

lostdude · 07-05-2007, 07:49 AM

wow there's alot of turbo falcons out there. didn't realise there were so many.
everytime i see threads like this makes me wanna turbocharge my car.
only if i had the money

The Monty · 07-05-2007, 08:08 AM

I actually think its cheaper to go Forced induction then N/A. I had made up my mind to go N/A until this kit came up for sale, and I bought it, and seen just how cheap it can be. I was getting told like 10-15000 at least to get it up and running, but I just dont see why you would need to spend that much , unless you want to make over 250kw, which is a hell of a lot for everyday driving. I hope to make 180 on relatively low boost, and that will be my daily car. Its not heaps but its enough.

jonbays · 07-05-2007, 08:35 AM

You have to be pretty handy mechanicly for turbo or supercharger install to be cheap and don't forget you still have to be able to register and insure it with the mods or risk saying goodbye to the car and your money

jonbays · 07-05-2007, 08:42 AM

I looked into this question too but the true cost of properly getting it registered and insured meant it wasn't a worthwhile option. I did see the supercharger as the go for mid range and off the line urge not best peak power but with the big advantage it was easy to remove for rego inspection and insurance fraud. Of course decided not to do the wrong thing.

JC · 07-05-2007, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

KKK K27 600hp Racing Turbo $1800
Snort log style manifold
38mm External wastegate
Dump pipe
600x300x76 intercooler
Intercooler piping
All these cam together ^^^^^^
32lb injectors $300
Rising rate fuel reg 2:1 $90.00
Pod Filter $100.00
3 inch Exhaust $450
Boost gauge $45.74
AFR gauge $62.50
Gauge holder $96.50
Deliveries $127

Total $3071.74

All I need is a unichip ($300), a catch can ($50), and fitting (doing all with forum members) and tuning (say around $500-$1000), so all up will be well under $5000. Much cheaper then a supercharger.
As for expected power, these are some figures others are pulling:
308 rwkw I6 Sedan Auto- Dansedgli
189 rwkw I6 Sedan Auto - Nudge
178.6 rwkw I6 Sedan Auto - AU-Steve
162 rwkw I6 sedan auto - TURBOTAXI
163.6rwkw EB Falcon Turbo 4.0L (3psi) -- SnyperEB
179.0rwkw EF Falcon Turbo 4.0L (6psi) -- EFFalcon
181.3rwkw EA Falcon Turbo, EL 4.0L -- Sundeep
183.0rwkw EB Falcon Turbo, --------- EVLELF
184.9rwkw AIT EA Falcon Turbo-------Dansedgli
188.6rwkw supercharged EA 4.0L ----- Rmyers
190.3rwkw Supercharged EF XR6 ------Obriza
202.1rwkw EB Falcon Turbo 4.0L------ Dansedgli
203.7rwkw EB XR6 turbo -> 6.2psi-----Rollin
232 rwkw ED Futura Turbo 4.0L------ EDturbo (mickmalta)
235 rwkw EF Falcon Turbo 4.0L-------Stevo_538
275 rwkw eb t/c falcon 4lt------------ EB SIX ON BOOST
287.4rwkw EL Falcon turbo 4.0l -------Fritzz
298.8rwkw EA Falcon turbo ---------- Turbo Tony (previous car)
335.8kw EB 4.0 Falcon Turbo --------------- ebs_4l
340.1rwkw EA Falcon T/C ------------ EASPRINT
357rwkw EA Falcon turbo 4.ol---------ea ba turbo
380rwkw@12psi EB Falcon turbo--------- Stevo_538
398.7rwkw EA falcon Turbo ----------- Turbo Tony (Caravan tower)
451.3rwkw EL XR6 Turbo --------------- PYROAY (427rwkw street tune)
460rwkw ED Falcon 4.0 Turbo -------- TUFED6

All are above 150RWKW, so that would be an extremely conservative figure. You would only need extremely low boost to acheive that figure.

How many of the above figures do you think are achieved with only bolting on the S/C or turbo. I can tell you that it's probably the ones under 200rwkw. BUT, they will need an engine or auto trans rebuild soon. This is the hidden cost of S/C or turboing your car, and as Jonbays says, there is then the engineering costs, insurance etc (though Shannons won't charge you extra if you already have the car insured with them - apparently). Your $3k kit, that costs $5k installed suddenly becomes a whole lot more when you need a $2.2K auto rebuild etc because you have run too much boost on the turbo and killed the transmission.

For this reason, the CAPA low boost supercharger kit is the cheapest to get an immediate increase in power without the need to rebuild the motor, box, diff etc. It is supposed to be safe with a stock motor and running gear - just ask Nudge though. His auto is already up for a rebuild as it is starting to flare and clunk, so even then the $6k kit is becoming more expensive in overall parts/funds needed for the car.

The Monty · 07-05-2007, 11:10 AM

Engineering isnt that big an issue here in Brisbane, but I do understand it is a biggie in NSW. As for rebuild, for 1800 you can get a slight strengthen and full rebuild, and you would probably want to do one anyway, even without the turbo, as my gearbox is over 200k old. As opposed to N/A, wher eyou will need one anyway, and just ask some people here how much has been spent by them to get 160 rwkw in there car. Come to think of it, I can only think of a handfull that have even got that much, and it hasnt been a cheap road either. Bang for buck, forced (supercharged, or turbocharged) is the best way to go, in my opinion. Things will break on any car be it N/A or forced at 160 kw if it is driven the wrong way. I think with the supercharger/turbocharged option, its six of one, half a dozen of the other. If you like mid range, go for the supercharger. If you like whine, go the supercharger. If its that spool up sound your after, and that top end boost, go turbo. They will both work out even in the end price wise.

JC · 07-05-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

Engineering isnt that big an issue here in Brisbane, but I do understand it is a biggie in NSW. As for rebuild, for 1800 you can get a slight strengthen and full rebuild, and you would probably want to do one anyway, even without the turbo, as my gearbox is over 200k old. As opposed to N/A, wher eyou will need one anyway, and just ask some people here how much has been spent by them to get 160 rwkw in there car. Come to think of it, I can only think of a handfull that have even got that much, and it hasnt been a cheap road either. Bang for buck, forced (supercharged, or turbocharged) is the best way to go, in my opinion. Things will break on any car be it N/A or forced at 160 kw if it is driven the wrong way. I think with the supercharger/turbocharged option, its six of one, half a dozen of the other. If you like mid range, go for the supercharger. If you like whine, go the supercharger. If its that spool up sound your after, and that top end boost, go turbo. They will both work out even in the end price wise.

Yep, pretty much agree with all of that. Just saying the inital price tag isn't the only cost.

Norton · 07-05-2007, 03:51 PM

I would go the Supercharger for a V8 and a Turbo for a 6.

A Supercharger will be a little nicer to your internal components and driveline V's a Turbo but this is all down to the level of boost you are running (Superchargers tend to be lower boost then Turbo's).

It is also not necessary to run Inter/After Coolers with a Supercharger but an Intercooler is needed on a Turbo.

Superchargers tend to be more expensive (Initially) then a Turbo but should (I said Should) last longer.

Superchargers should give you a nicer power delivery with no "Lag", Most turbo setups have a "Lag".

They will both give you a great increase in power and both will far outweigh the "Bang for Buck" you could get by N/A improvements.

Just my 2 cents worth!

The Mighty Red · 07-05-2007, 04:19 PM

If I was going forced it would be with the Vortech Supercharger,

**Mechan1k** · 08-05-2007, 07:57 AM

If I had the cash ... I'd be bolting a blower to my I6 ... especially running on LPG ... no Pinging either.

As I'd rather have plenty of bottom-end to mid-range torque for driveability with the auto ... especially when loading carrying and towing .... I am not one to rev the crap out of my ute.

For me ... Supercharger FTW.

stiddy · 08-05-2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Our Blue XR6

If I was going forced it would be with the Vortech Supercharger,

Amen! Vortech S-Trim all the way.

Turboed 6's have been done to death, get something different, something unique, something that stands out.
I saw a charged EL i6 yesterday afternoon, you cant beat the sound of that scream.

Gunns · 08-05-2007, 10:59 AM

I have said it once and I will say it again:

If it is reliable and cheap it aint fast.
If it is fast and cheap it aint reliable.
If it is Fast and reliable it aint cheap!

StealthAu · 08-05-2007, 11:26 AM

It all depends on what sort of power your looking for. If your just looking to run low boost and not going to upgrade internals, easiest option is the supercharger. I'm currently tossing up weither or not to go fourced, and if so what root to take. Another bonus of the supercharger is the ease of installation/removal compared to a turbo, for me makes it less of a concern in getting it engineered. But if you want some serious power (and have some serious dollars to make it) turbo's the only option

b-juggles · 08-05-2007, 11:55 AM

I have a EL 6 running a 9psi powerdyne setup. I'm making 200rwkw (on both autotech and SAS's dyno). I have also done cam and 3k stally and 2.5" exhaust. There is room for more power once I upgrade injectors and exhaust.

I chose the supercharger over the turbo as I didnt want lag. That said though on a supercharger since its belt driven, boost is proportional to engine speed so you may not make as much boost a turbo at lower revs, but the power will come on more evenly (as engine speed increases).

The car is driven daily and drives like a normal EL at low revs, I have not had any problems with it (had the kit on since november last year). Also the install looks factory - read as if you get pulled over, the coppers probably wont even take notice of it, compared to a turbo which is a bit obvious IMO

StealthAu · 08-05-2007, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b-juggles

I have a EL 6 running a 9psi powerdyne setup. I'm making 200rwkw (on both autotech and SAS's dyno). I have also done cam and 3k stally and 2.5" exhaust. There is room for more power once I upgrade injectors and exhaust.

I chose the supercharger over the turbo as I didnt want lag. That said though on a supercharger since its belt driven, boost is proportional to engine speed so you may not make as much boost a turbo at lower revs, but the power will come on more evenly (as engine speed increases).

The car is driven daily and drives like a normal EL at low revs, I have not had any problems with it (had the kit on since november last year). Also the install looks factory - read as if you get pulled over, the coppers probably wont even take notice of it, compared to a turbo which is a bit obvious IMO

Sorry, but your only kidding yourself if you think a cop wouldn't notice your blower if he asks you to pop your bonnet

TAGS · 08-05-2007, 01:59 PM

in a year or so i will be supercharging my ef, i so far decided to go with the capa powerdyne charger, and for just over 5 grand i reckon its pretty cheap and effectve in the long run, plus as some have said less work to do converting back to factory. here's a pic, i love the way it looks.

and the specs:
(Water Inj/Stage/Boost/kW/Price)
EA-EB-ED 6 cyl 3.9L Multi point
Powerdyne option/1/7/200 ex/$ 5,354.00
Powerdyne inc/2/9/225 ex/$ 5,997.00

EF-EL 6 cyl 4.0L
Powerdyne option/1/6/215 ex/$ 5,351.00
Powerdyne inc/2/9/240 ex/$ 5,997.00
Vortech inc/3/9-14/Mod Engine/$ 7,995.00

AU 6 cyl INTEC & VCT
Powerdyne inc/1/9/240 ex/$ 6,319.00

*ex = Power obtained with modified exhaust system.

**Mechan1k** · 08-05-2007, 05:51 PM

Snort do the same kit for approx $4K.

Duffman · 08-05-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

How many of the above figures do you think are achieved with only bolting on the S/C or turbo. I can tell you that it's probably the ones under 200rwkw. BUT, they will need an engine or auto trans rebuild soon. This is the hidden cost of S/C or turboing your car, and as Jonbays says, there is then the engineering costs, insurance etc (though Shannons won't charge you extra if you already have the car insured with them - apparently). Your $3k kit, that costs $5k installed suddenly becomes a whole lot more when you need a $2.2K auto rebuild etc because you have run too much boost on the turbo and killed the transmission.

For this reason, the CAPA low boost supercharger kit is the cheapest to get an immediate increase in power without the need to rebuild the motor, box, diff etc. It is supposed to be safe with a stock motor and running gear - just ask Nudge though. His auto is already up for a rebuild as it is starting to flare and clunk, so even then the $6k kit is becoming more expensive in overall parts/funds needed for the car.

Im with you on that one. I tried the do it cheap turbo for 5k and had nothing but hassles went all out for the good quality stuff 8-10k upped the boost 1000km later the engine died. It was tested and dyno'd before been done and was all ok but still didnt last. Now the compression is rooted it pushes oil from the sump up the dipstick if you give it too much and has heaps of blow by. Now needs a full rebuild lucky it wont cost next to nothing as we have more tools/equipment then most workshops. Anyway if your gonna turbo might throw the few extra $$ at the engine and get it done so you can really boost it and wont blow it up.

stiddy · 08-05-2007, 08:09 PM

Geoff kits from snort dont use powerdynes from what he's told me.

In my opinion dont waste your money on a powerdyne, its people who get these bottom end chargers, only make 180-200rwkw and then whinge about it saying I should of gone turbo and blah blah blah. Unless of course thats ALL that you want.

You dont need to go turbo to make big power. A well thought out and set up supercharger kit will make just as much, just power comes on in a different way.
But either way you look at it, you need to spend the $$$

TURBOTAXI · 08-05-2007, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunns

I have said it once and I will say it again:

If it is reliable and cheap it aint fast.
If it is fast and cheap it aint reliable.
If it is Fast and reliable it aint cheap!

And I would ask again, what is fast, what is cheap and what is reliable. I understand the adage, just want to know what they mean.

Hibbz · 08-05-2007, 09:25 PM

what do capa include with a supercharger kit??

How do work out your fuel requirements?

Is a Flash Tune the best way to tune a vortech setup??

Thanks Jake

stiddy · 08-05-2007, 09:38 PM

Hey Jake,

The flash tune is the best tuning tool on the market for the AU and BA's at the moment bar none.
Fuel requirements takes a bit of working out, its not easy, basically you need to speak to someone that knows what they are talking about, they will steer you in the right direction. You still wont fully know till you have it up on the dyno. Although there are some proven set ups already, like a Walbro 255 fuel pump and Ev2 Greentop 440cc injectors..
In the kits you get the blower unit, bracketry, pulleys, belts, oil feed and drain, a hopeless off the shelf chip, and basic fuel system upgrade which may aswell go into the bin.
You should just get the kit minus the fuel system and chip. Ask for Justin he will help you out.

Norton · 08-05-2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibbz

what do capa include with a supercharger kit??

How do work out your fuel requirements?

Is a Flash Tune the best way to tune a vortech setup??

Thanks Jake

I have the full parts list from CAPA for a Vortech kit (Supplied from another AFF Member) PM me with an e-mail address to send it to (Word file).

Fuel requirements - Don't know I will be on Gas.

Flash tune is the best way to tune for any changes.

Hope this helps.

jlosau03 · 08-05-2007, 10:19 PM

hmmmmm i think ill just sell my car and get a r33 turbo skyline now hahaha

**Mechan1k** · 09-05-2007, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiddy

Geoff kits from snort dont use powerdynes from what he's told me.

In my opinion dont waste your money on a powerdyne, its people who get these bottom end chargers, only make 180-200rwkw and then whinge about it saying I should of gone turbo and blah blah blah. Unless of course thats ALL that you want.

You dont need to go turbo to make big power. A well thought out and set up supercharger kit will make just as much, just power comes on in a different way.
But either way you look at it, you need to spend the $$$

Hmmm interesting to know.

I am not after big power though ... I just want fatter bottom-mid rev torque ... and better driveability for load work. A PD is probably all i need anyway ... AFAIK quieter too ... which is another good thing for me too.

Also a well setup S/C system is less stressful on the drivetrain as well .... no sudden torque/boost spikes to make things go bang. Well ... it still could ... but power/torque delivery is smoother and more linear.

I already have the auto box built stronger as it is ... it was originally built to handle a boosted I6. So I am set there

b-juggles · 09-05-2007, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stockoau

Sorry, but your only kidding yourself if you think a cop wouldn't notice your blower if he asks you to pop your bonnet

the point I am trying to make is that it looks very factory IMO...see the pic TAGS posted.