How is the VE so fresh??

[vztrt]

I keep reading people say that the VE is such a fresh design and makes the B series look old.

How??

I've seen the Omega and the SV6 in the flesh and exterior wise it's nothing special. Now there are lots of comments like the front looks like a BA or an enlarged Astra so how does a similar design to aged platforms make the car look fresh?
Oh and the side and back look like a Mitsubishi 380/Gallant

Your thoughts....

[LUXO_8]

its nothing overly new, taking design ques from many current cars.............i wouldnt say its a fresh design at all, and i think its going to get very old looking by the time its ending its body run

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by vztrt

I keep reading people say that the VE is such a fresh design and makes the B series look old.

How??

I've seen the Omega and the SV6 in the flesh and exterior wise it's nothing special. Now there are lots of comments like the front looks like a BA or an enlarged Astra so how does a similar design to aged platforms make the car look fresh?
Oh and the side and back look like a Mitsubishi 380/Gallant

Your thoughts....

Its all propoganda from the darkside padawan : :alien2: _2:

[Smoke Pursuit]

I think the flaired out guards and the roundness of the body around the rocker panels up each side make it look very new and euro. If you compare its beautiful rockers to the BF it makes em look like crap, as they are plastic. I am certainly a bigger fan then I thought I would be of the VE, it just seems to do it for me like no other Holden ever has.

The rear lets it down somewhat, specially the huge *** tacked on spoilers but other then that and the stupid handbrake leaver I reckon its a winner.

[XRQTR]

Right on the money with the 380 comparison, even when the VY first came out I remember seeing it from a distance from behind and thinking it was the previous model Magna. It's almost as though Holden and Mitsubishi have something going here.

[Boss 290]

yes its all hype by the holden lovers...they cars have great engines but they look girly like the old ones..im sick of holden with the braggin rites for the v8s..i think orion will have lighter and better fuel efficiant cars then the comodores and if the rumors of 315 kilwatts for the gt is true then i think it will 1 up for ford again

[Ford_To_Holden]

Boss 290. I believe you think to much my son.

[Full Spectrum]

The VE is fresh because of it's body, It is modern it is safe it's the area where Holden has the biggest advantage over Ford right now its flexible and as tight as a tax mans wallet.

[Polyal]

Fresh meaning build date and thats about it.

As much as I love the BA/BF range, they will look dated next to a VE.

Thats not to say that the BA/BF is a bad design, but you cannot expect a 2002 shell (even 1998 if you count AU) to compete with something brand new.

[Twisted]

I have to admit I like the chunky look and the pumped out guards, im waiting to see what the new generation utes will look like.

[apolloxbgt]

Originally Posted by Twisted

I have to admit I like the chunky look and the pumped out guards, im waiting to see what the new generation utes will look like.

You'll be waiting a while..................

[Racecraft]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Fresh meaning build date and thats about it.

As much as I love the BA/BF range, they will look dated next to a VE.

Thats not to say that the BA/BF is a bad design, but you cannot expect a 2002 shell (even 1998 if you count AU) to compete with something brand new.

thats what I was thinking.. THe BA/BF is so close in shape to the AUII onwards it is a 6 year old look... I think the VE is a breath of freshness, similiar to the 300C... Just looks to me like the AU-BF shape is a touch dated in comparison

[HSE2]

My brother loves VE. Came home last night and said he saw Bobafett on the road for the first time. I assumed he was talking about one of the sport models.

In other news.

I got the SSv brochure pretty early and took in to work. With out a word of a lie, nearly all the comments were "it looks like this, and it looks like that"

Not once was it “That’s the new Commodore”

On road the comments are It has presence" but I had to look twice to realise it was the new car? What? How can something have presence when you have to have a doubt take?

Others seem to indicate that they walked straight passed it and didn't notice the new model.

Generally fresh doesn't automatically translate to better. Holden guys seem to think that because it is a new platform it gives them an automatic free kick in the best column. That’s not the case. The Holden will and should be better, it the question of how much and in areas that matter to the consumer. Ford has had the better product for a while and it hasn't helped them. In fact you see it a fair bit where the best product doesn't always translate to sales.

I truly believe if I were a genuine Holden person this car would appeal to me. But I am not. I would buy it if it had all the I’s dotted and the Ts crossed. To me the design pays homage to the past and that is the past of everything. European past- Holden’s past which is fine provided the market isn’t looking for fresh and forward. One could argue the guards are inspirational but I think more then a few will have issue with how big they are. That’s it. We are left with guards as a fresh design cue. It’s nice and it shouldn’t offend in large numbers and in time perhaps it will date the competition.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Generally fresh doesn't automatically translate to better. Holden guys seem to think that because it is a new platform it gives them an automatic free kick in the best column. That’s not the case. The Holden will and should be better, it the question of how much and in areas that matter to the consumer. Ford has had the better product for a while and it hasn't helped them. In fact you see it a fair bit where the best product doesn't always translate to sales.

Very true, BF has been around for a while now so people are familiar with it and used to its look, VE is new, so there's allways going to be "its new so it must be better" in peoples minds......
Ford have had the better product now for a number of years, but given the large number of cars in Fleets or on 3-4 year lease plans you'll never see instant sales success, the fact that FPV has continually realled HSV in with sales results to finally lead is proof that people are taking notice.
Time will tell whether Holden have got it right with VE: caught up or taken it to a new level.
Eitherway competition is good, without it we'd still be driving E series Falcons..

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Not once was it “That’s the new Commodore”
On road the comments are It has presence" but I had to look twice to realise it was the new car? What? How can something have presence when you have to have a doubt take?
Generally fresh doesn't automatically translate to better. Holden guys seem to think that because it is a new platform it gives them an automatic free kick in the best column. That’s not the case. The Holden will and should be better, it the question of how much and in areas that matter to the consumer. Ford has had the better product for a while and it hasn't helped them. In fact you see it a fair bit where the best product doesn't always translate to sales.
I truly believe if I were a genuine Holden person this car would appeal to me. But I am not. I would buy it if it had all the I’s dotted and the Ts crossed. To me the design pays homage to the past and that is the past of everything. European past- Holden’s past which is fine provided the market isn’t looking for fresh and forward. One could argue the guards are inspirational but I think more then a few will have issue with how big they are. That’s it. We are left with guards as a fresh design cue. It’s nice and it shouldn’t offend in large numbers and in time perhaps it will date the competition.

You are right, fresh doesnt mean better however in this case from all accounts the public (drivers) are voting better in terms of looks first then features second ( I am involved with a large fleet) so time will tell. With any new product you have to expect the fans to be excited and poistive. It is only a very small part of the market that post comments on forums such as this and whilst people will always look at a new car and compare it to something else, that is what we all do. What are people comparing the BFII to? AU etc
What some of you dont realise is that the next generation Falcon will have many design features that VE has, such as forward mounted front end, similar body & roof lines and maybe even pumped guards.
Why is VE so fresh? Its a completely new design in all repects and has a lot of new stuff that no-one else has so it must be. Why does it not stand out in a crowd? They dont want it too but they gave it presence and poise to set it apart and it has worked

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

Why is VE so fresh? Its a completely new design in all repects and has a lot of new stuff that no-one else has so it must be. Why does it not stand out in a crowd? They dont want it too but they gave it presence and poise to set it apart and it has worked

Both manufacturer for some time have been on similar design themes and working towards the same packaging so it will be a given that the cars will share similar philosophies. For example there are products with in Ford that use flared or degree of flared guards but they don’t currently enjoy the pleasure of being so disproportionate as the VEs. There is a reason why the Calais seems to offend less across the board.

It’s a fresh approach for Holden with the Commodore but that’s not really the question. From a design stand point there is very little that makes this design fresh with its surroundings. That’s why we are getting comments like, BA head lights, Audi type guards, Mazda 6 silhouette.

It is certainly fresh for a Holden, but in being an all new model, if inspiration were an element of fresh then the basis for design on which it is formed is considerably dated.

To me it looks like a new Commodore. Nothing more, nothing less, which is what Holden would have wanted. But the fact remains peoples instant response thus far has been along the lines of comparison with existing cars. For all new that’s a failure on the fresh front for mine. Doesn't detract from the product but rather a comment on design v expectation

[drcook]

Originally Posted by MADNC_8

taking design ques from many current cars.............

seeing as they signed off the design years ago (2002-3 ?) that would be difficult.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by drcook

seeing as they signed off the design years ago (2002-3 ?) that would be difficult.

No that’s part of the issue because the design they claim to have drawn inspiration from is exactly that vintage. The designs people say the VE looked like would have started at the same time but have reached market first.

It is somewhat surprising that VE is as old as Holden are claiming and that they locked themselves away so early. From what I have read on this issue GM were forcing them to a timetable that wasn’t necessarily for production reasons which may have hampered flexibility to react to current trends.

As the others have moved they would have seen their own toes being trodden on but yet they had no flexibility to freshen. I think that is why most companies are moving to digestion cycles that are closer to two to three years and looking for inspiration out side of the industry.

[Kenster]

I seen one of the new VE commodore once on the street in a car park walking past it you could tell its the new commodore but the car still dont have this wow fact to the design and looking from the body its look heavy and not light as the BF or BA looks.

Im hoping next week i could get a friend of mine to come with me to do a test drive of the VE commodore and see how it goes on the freeway and highway roads around and seeing how it goes during slow rev and take off. To me the VE still look like to me just like another day commodore while BA design did catch my eye with the looks and performance i seen on the road

[4Vman]

I think allot of the similarities that people draw between VE and other vehicles maybe as a result of conservative design trends as well.
If accurate meaningfull research and consumer feedback shows a particular trent for styling then you'd imagine all car manufacturers to follow or look similar to some degree, most have spent allot of money to gain this information, and unless they're sampling different demographics i can't see how this data will vary much.
The only example i can think of where a car manufacturer in this broad market segment has stepped away from current styling trends with something that could be genuinely described as bold or fresh is Chrysler with the 300C, and its other variants.
Chrysler is very different will all its vehicles from others within their various market segments, whether this will sell volume though is questionable...

[drcook]

theres no doubt in my mind holden had an Audi A6 parked in there r&d garage.

so with trying to build a completely fresh design car while taking inspiration from the A6 (in terms of details & quality control), plus estimating future design trends, trying to keep the car "recognisable commodore" and conservative enough to suit a large number of individual and corporation purchasers, plus adhearing to all ADR's, and within budget and engineering constrictions, theres a limit of "different and bold" they can put in.

and as said by 4vman, the chryslers a breath of fresh air style wise, but where are they in terms of cars sold in aus? top 5? top 10? top 50?. cars like that have a limit of sellable numbers.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Kenter

I seen one of the new VE commodore once on the street in a car park walking past it you could tell its the new commodore but the car still dont have this wow fact to the design

I am probably the only person in Australia that thinks this but I reckon they look best on paper then disappoint slightly in the flesh. Normally it s the other way round. The side profile is stunning and when Holden or the media place the old next to the new the VE does instantly date the VZ. New wheels mag has a picture of the VZ HSV next to the VE during testing and the difference is huge probably more so then any other Holden model.

I have only seen VE in showrooms but it somehow loses its impact for me in the flesh. It suddenly becomes less fresh but yet different.

The 300c is a little different to the rest of the competition. Certain aspect of US design has a retro theme going on, and for most part they are executing in a way that isn't offensive. Even people that don’t exactly like the 300c design feel its ok because Chrysler are trying to carry off a theme from the past and as iterations go, its a pretty good effort.

Companies that have long traditional design lines often say the flexibility to move and step up is in the interior. "Because of our heritage we are expected to play safe with exterior design” While I like the VE interior and the jump it represents over VZ, it very much follows BA in design and for me that is disappointing. They had some flexibility to really push in this area and didn't.

I have gotten into enough arguments over “Fresh, New and Generation” to last me a life time. Robos Wheels article is an interesting perspective on a similar subject.

[Bossxr8]

I've never heard anyone say they love the VE. Its always it looks ok or it looks a bit like a BA but no one ever says they love it. Even people who have written into this months Wheels magazine have burned it. Same as in last weeks Drive. The reaction seems to be very average. The way Holdens designers hyped it up made people think it was going to best the best looking car of all time, but the reality is that it is way from the mark they would have expected. Maybe they hyped it too much.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by HSE2

No that’s part of the issue because the design they claim to have drawn inspiration from is exactly that vintage. The designs people say the VE looked like would have started at the same time but have reached market first.

It is somewhat surprising that VE is as old as Holden are claiming and that they locked themselves away so early. From what I have read on this issue GM were forcing them to a timetable that wasn’t necessarily for production reasons which may have hampered flexibility to react to current trends.

As the others have moved they would have seen their own toes being trodden on but yet they had no flexibility to freshen. I think that is why most companies are moving to digestion cycles that are closer to two to three years and looking for inspiration out side of the industry.

HSE2, you've actually summed up beautifully my exact thoughts this afternoon. I followed a black SV6 along the Westgate freeway and yes it's a good looking car however something about its design kept me thinking...then it clicked...the VE could have been released 3 years ago and it still would have been no more a stand out design, good looking, but not the impression that say the VT brought about at it's release . I then remembered that Holden claimed the main style was set back very early, say end of 2002(?), which is 4 years before its release. In the distance the VE (say 100m) actually became very anonymous with the other traffic while a VT in the next lane stood out to me far more easily and identifiably. Earlier I spotted a VE parked amongst other parallel parked cars and if not for the guards I would not have picked it at all.

Back on the freeway, I then noticed a new VW Passat side by side with the VE and it dated the VE instantly.

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Back on the freeway, I then noticed a new VW Passat side by side with the VE and it dated the VE instantly.

Each to there own. I personally can't see how the VW looks more modern. The VW looks very Nissan Maxima like.

But at least we know where HSV got the inspiration for their tail lights.

[HSE2]

Each to their own is right. Only way to look at it. People have different views and tastes and see things differently.

[uranium_death]

I still think that for a billion dollars, the design certainly is not as groundbreaking as people think.

It still has a lot of the VT-Z heritage there. It's hype.

The Falcon looks better IMO.

But I'm an inbecile, so what do I know?

[Full Spectrum]

You could say that about every BMW Mercedes Benz Audi, They take a bit of there past forward with them. It's like there mark.

[uranium_death]

True.

But I reckon Mercedes, BMWs and AUdis suck. Don't interest me at all.

Love my Falcons.
Also like the 959 and F40. Bloody Test Drive II on the Commodore 64.

[Full Spectrum]

I'm a bit that way more into cars after the 90's built here.