heres an interesting fact.

EB Pete · 16-06-2006, 05:51 PM

Now to start with i got told this today from the bloke who rebuilt my auto. he seems to know everything about every gearbox.

anyway when i picked it up he asked me if my car had a tranny cooler. i told him a had just bought one and that i was contremplating whether or not i still use the radiator aswell. heres where it gets interesting.

he said EA-ED have barely any troubles with the oil core in the radiator breaking down, where as in the EF onwards it's a big problem. he said he replaces at least 1 radiator a week in these later model cars.

then he said that the reason is because of the THERMO FANS. he was told that the electro magretic field produced by the fan motors induced a voltage into the radiator, which in turn causes electrolisys (or whatever it is) in turn breaking down the cores alot faster. then he continued to say that he had been talking to some ford dude about it and was told that 'apparently' they earth the 2 fan motors to the thermostat and this normally stops it happening.

now i don't know if it's true but it makes sense to me as i have learnt all about that electrical crap. what do yas think?

EB Pete · 16-06-2006, 06:38 PM

no one else found that interesting? i'm about to put thermos on my car and i'm thinking about earthing them

1TUFFUTE · 16-06-2006, 07:03 PM

deff sounds interesting..if he went to all that effort to tell u the story u may as well earth them. Better to be safe than sorry bud

:

efgiar · 16-06-2006, 07:37 PM

why dont u just use a trans cooler? save ur auto, and ur radiator! but interesting to know. btw, i have a transcooler if anyone wants to buy it

has half the hoses too, the pipes from the tranny are stuffed :P

hako · 16-06-2006, 08:22 PM

The mechanic is correct - stray electrical currents will eat out aluminium core radiators very quickly. Check out this link:
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/straycurrent.htm

mik · 16-06-2006, 09:28 PM

interesting read i can atest too the power of electrolysis, a few years ago i was an owner driver of a semi , anyway after loosing coolant internally i found that one of the cylander liners had become porouse after after inspection the whole lot had too be replaced , it looked like wood borers had eaten the the liners, apparently diesels are more susseptable too electrolysis(static electricity), diesels use an additive too counter this problem, the earth strap sounds like a good idea

svo347 · 16-06-2006, 09:34 PM

Cant see how when the fans are connected to a diode which inhibits back current.

**Sorted** · 16-06-2006, 09:45 PM

I heard something similar with regards to electrolysis but it was to do with putting a Aluminum Head on my Cast Iron Hemi 6.

Electrolysis can eat into the head and destroy it

BUT it also was connected to using the wrong coolant or mixing it wrong......

To stop this from happening you had to add another earth to the block

EB Pete · 17-06-2006, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svo347

Cant see how when the fans are connected to a diode which inhibits back current.

do you mean back EMF?

anything that has electrical current flowing through it generates a magnetic field, which can induce voltage on some things.

Growler · 17-06-2006, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EB Pete

do you mean back EMF?

anything that has electrical current flowing through it generates a magnetic field, which can induce voltage on some things.

Isnt EMF early morning fat or 'morning glory'? what does a stiff have to do with anything said here??

XRated · 17-06-2006, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Growler

Isnt EMF early morning fat or 'morning glory'? what does a stiff have to do with anything said here??

LOL @ stiff!

But what's a "back EMF"

: Or shouldn't I ask?

EB Pete · 17-06-2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Growler

Isnt EMF early morning fat or 'morning glory'? what does a stiff have to do with anything said here??

electro magnetic force

EB Pete · 18-06-2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EB Pete

electro magnetic force

sorry thats wrong. its electro magnetic field

EB Pete · 18-06-2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRated

LOL @ stiff!

But what's a "back EMF"

: Or shouldn't I ask?

i'm not 100% sure about it anymore (learnt about it last year) but whenever an electric current is produced a current is produced to oppose it. when that current collapses a current is also creeated to keep it going. but it just gets to complicated. you don't need to know about it anyway.

Hippy · 18-06-2006, 08:31 PM

for every action , there is an equal and opposite reaction
[Law of relativity]
Earth strap to block should be sufficient , as H20 is a conductor , and is always in contact with block

opto · 18-06-2006, 08:48 PM

Im an Electrician, Here are some facts

1, Electrolysis requires a liquid or paste and normally 2 dissimilar metals.

2, Ths induced EMF created by the Electric motors would be that small they would be insignificant.

3, I believe most of the housing is plastic so it may be difficult to earth the motor, and a waste of time as the motor is using the "Earth" or negative as a return for the circuit.

4 Ask your tranny technician to stick with tranny info.

EB Pete · 18-06-2006, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opto

Im an Electrician, Here are some facts

1, Electrolysis requires a liquid or paste and normally 2 dissimilar metals.

2, Ths induced EMF created by the Electric motors would be that small they would be insignificant.

3, I believe most of the housing is plastic so it may be difficult to earth the motor, and a waste of time as the motor is using the "Earth" or negative as a return for the circuit.

4 Ask your tranny technician to stick with tranny info.

well i'm an app electrician and i don't really understand most of that stuff but all it needs is about .5V for this to happen. when he was talking to this ford technician he was told on average they get .8V difference so they earth it and it normally fixes the problem.

**Sorted** · 18-06-2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opto

4 Ask your tranny technician to stick with tranny info.

I wish everyone in their field of expertise stuck to giving advice only in their field - this would only happen in a prefect world

EB Pete · 18-06-2006, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRHEMI

I wish everyone in their field of expertise stuck to giving advice only in their field - this would only happen in a prefect world

well actually it has alot to do with his 'field of expertise' if you think about it. when someone brings in an auto to be serviced and he finds flakes of metal or whatever from the cooler core in the oil he has to work out where it's coming from. there are many more instances i can quote from him but he said every week he replaces at least 1 radiator out of a commodore or falcon because the oil cooler in the radiator has collapsd. he also told me that taxi companies get there radiators changed every 100 000 km just incase. i don't know about the rest of you but when a mechanic/auto technician/ auto electrician tells me a few things i should look out for i take it in cause if they bother to tell you they must see it alot and actually want to keep your business.

**Sorted** · 18-06-2006, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EB Pete

well actually it has alot to do with his 'field of expertise' if you think about it

Yeah but I was not having a stab at you mate - its all sweet

EB Pete · 18-06-2006, 10:58 PM

yeah same. i just found it interesting.

jmc-007 · 19-06-2006, 09:43 AM

I think it would be more a case of the Aluminium cored radiator not being earthed more than the themofans.

The after market Aluminium radiators i have seen for the E series have a earth strap that earths to the body or the engine. to stop this.

As what has been said the fans wouldnt generate enough electricity.

wulos · 19-06-2006, 06:47 PM

The actual process that you are talking about (one electrical source, transfering an electrical potential to another nearby conductive media) is actually called electrical induction. Electrolysis is a different thing altogether. (can go into describing that process in more depth if ya like - in short though is similar theory to how a battery works)
The thermo fans may well be a cause of earlier then expected failure.
It would be more likely that the fans are allowing increased rates of 'heat cylcing', which is increasing metal fatigue, increased vibration levels shaking the crap loose.

BI6TIM · 19-06-2006, 07:38 PM

As opto said, the induced EMF created by the electrical motors is insignificant.
As svo347 said the fans are usualy conected to a diode that inhibits back current.

I think you'll find that the problem with EF/EL radiator oil coolers is so much simpler. The reason is that the oil coolers in EF/EL had a copper mesh wound around the inside of the cooler, whereas the EA-ED coolers didn't. It is this copper mesh that is breaking down and travelling into the auto.
This is proven in the amount of EA-ED auto falcons that have had EF/EL twin thermo fans fitted for a number of years that haven't had the problem. Putting these fans on earlier falcons is not a new idea there are plenty out there running fine.

Hippy · 20-06-2006, 01:27 AM

Quote- [This is proven in the amount of EA-ED auto falcons that have had EF/EL twin thermo fans fitted for a number of years that haven't had the problem. Putting these fans on earlier falcons is not a new idea there are plenty out there running fine.]

Yep , no probs..steel heads etc./ go electrolysis , I and am not worried.....

BI6TIM · 20-06-2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Hippy

Yep , no probs..steel heads etc./ go electrolysis , I and am not worried.....

This thread is not about electrolysis in the head, the cast block/ alloy head setup will always have that same problem( however recently I learned that an earth strap between the head and the block could slow or even stop this ).

This thread was originaly about EF/EL thermo fans inducing enough electrolysis to break down parts of the radiator.
Also EB Pete you probably already know this but you mentioned something earlier on about alloy radiators. The standard radiators in these falcons is a steel core with some form of plastic tanks, they're not alloy.

EB Pete · 20-06-2006, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BI6TIM

This thread is not about electrolysis in the head, the cast block/ alloy head setup will always have that same problem( however recently I learned that an earth strap between the head and the block could slow or even stop this ).

This thread was originaly about EF/EL thermo fans inducing enough electrolysis to break down parts of the radiator.
Also EB Pete you probably already know this but you mentioned something earlier on about alloy radiators. The standard radiators in these falcons is a steel core with some form of plastic tanks, they're not alloy.

does the coolent additive helped stop the electrolysis between the alloy head and cast block?

BI6TIM · 20-06-2006, 06:59 PM

I think the aditive does help a bit with that. The best fix I've heard for that problem is, as I think I have already posted, the earth strap from head to block. It would be a pretty easy fix too, I'm going to put one on my car pretty soon.

MK120C · 25-06-2006, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BI6TIM

I think the aditive does help a bit with that. The best fix I've heard for that problem is, as I think I have already posted, the earth strap from head to block. It would be a pretty easy fix too, I'm going to put one on my car pretty soon.

Electrolysis is caused by the use of wrong coolant which as far as I know is the cause of the electrical current in the first place. Why do you need a earth strapp when the head is earthed with the head bolts?

Greg54 · 21-08-2007, 07:44 PM

I have had two radiators in 125k and have a concern that this one is not going to last. I have been investigating possible causes and have virtually narrowed it down to the fact that the core is not earthed. The action of the coolant with two disimilar materials ie the block is cast and the core alluminium will make a primative battery. And you get nothing for nothing so something has to go and being the softess the core is going to first. Therefore to halt the electrolitic action all it needs is an earth strap for the core. The same as with an aluminium hull of a boat or an outboard where you fit an anode. The anode in the car is the soft alluminum core. I have asked taxis and found out that they earth the raditor cores. So this weekend I will be grounding my radiator cores.