Help needed with a fiesta bought at a dealership

jeff_o · 02-06-2013, 05:10 PM

Hi it's my first time to buy a car from a dealership. It's a 2009 Ford Fiesta Zetec and bought at CARNET AUCTIONS at Smithfield, NSW.

I'm new to car buying so don't know the fine prints. I made an offer specifying all fees and everything included and my offer was accepted, not knowing that the transfer fee is not included in the sale.

I specifically told the dealer about my offer includes everything and he said yes. He took my $500 deposit and this happened just yesterday. I specifically asked that person if there are any fine prints that i need to know to own the car and he said none.

I remembered about the transfer fee this morning and called them up but i have difficulty getting that person who helped me out yesterday. I explained to the manager and the manager said i'll lose my $500 deposit.

Is there anything I can do to get it back? The dealer wasn't able to show me the logbooks yet. They told me cooling off period are only for financing and not cash purchase. Is this true?

4VCLEVO · 02-06-2013, 05:21 PM

Unfortunately the car yard is right, cooling off period is only available if you had finance on it and your cooling off period is one day. Cash has no cooling off period. Its all on the NSW fair trading website.

jeff_o · 02-06-2013, 05:27 PM

but when i asked them about the fine prints for additional expenses, they said none so isn't this a bit misinforming?

would you have the link to the NSW fair trade website? i was searching the entire website but could not find any?

Simple6 · 02-06-2013, 05:57 PM

Are you thinking of the transfer fee for getting the car into your name? When you're saying transfer fee I assume you're including stamp duty in that because the transfer fee is cheap (like $30 or something) - stamp duty is the big $$$.

If so, then that's charged to the new owner (you) by the RMS when you go in and transfer it into your name.

To be honest, I don't know why you'd think that's part of the deal? I wouldn't think the dealer would think you meant that either, mainly because, as I said, those fees are charged by the RMS not he dealer. I don't think a dealer would have the capacity to even process a transfer.

I could be wrong though. I bought a car from a dealer once and expected the transfer fees on top, charged by the RMS. Private sales, this goes without saying.

**PG2** · 02-06-2013, 06:01 PM

Transfer fees are not part of the used car transaction (it could be argued that they should be - they are to be included in new car prices).

Morally they could have told you about the transfer and stamp duty fees but legally, no they do not have to.

Do you know that you have 2 weeks after the taking delivery of the car to pay the fees.

EDIT: Was typing away while Simple6 posted - sorry.

Jallopy · 02-06-2013, 06:10 PM

[QUOTE=jeff_o;4758547]but when i asked them about the fine prints for additional expenses, they said none so isn't this a bit misinforming?
QUOTE]

Yes it is misleading, If you wanted drive away price.

Wait till tomorrow and talk to the original person you spoke to and left a deposit with, about the deal for clarification. It may very well include all stamp duty and transfer etc.

KIWI-1 · 02-06-2013, 06:17 PM

http://transition.accc.gov.au/conten.../itemId/871382 may help you.

jeff_o · 02-06-2013, 06:28 PM

yes i meant the transfer fee and stamp duty (3%). i'm new to Australia, moved here just 2010 and buying my first car from dealership. I was under the impression everything (drive away) includes everything for you to 'own' the car. i did not know about not including the transfer fees and tax.

i know for a fact that when you buy it off a private seller, you have to pay the transfer duty yourself.

I'll take a look at the link.

i'm looking at the tax invoice i have right now and i can see a GST of 10% of the sale price. is GST and stamp duty the same? but i guess this is not the GST of the transfer?

KIWI-1 · 02-06-2013, 06:40 PM

I think you are out of luck as the transfer is paid to a third party (RTA).

Time to be nice to the dealer and try to negotiate a solution based on your inexperience.

jeff_o · 02-06-2013, 07:18 PM

i think i was nice and very straightforward with the dealership. i went there, inspected the car, test drove and gave an offer. i'll contact them tomorrow, hopefully they'd be able to work something out. fingers crossed.

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2013, 08:02 PM

They have not mentioned the fee when you were talking knowing very well you would be up for it once you drove out of the lot. Of course, this would have been an 'accidental oversight.'

You most certainly can buy used cars off the lot 'drive away', having said that, in the end it's your word against theirs. Did the receipt for the dposit state that he deal was 'drive away' or 'including transfer fees'. Doubt it... You are dealing with 'professionals' after all.

I have learnt, through my own experiences that the reason car sales people are near the bottom of popularity list is that they will generally do and say anything for you to sign on the line and hand over the deposit. Once that is done the smiles quickly vanish and the legal jargon about how the deal is in their favour comes flowing from their mouths with no holding back.

Good luck with it. I bought a car from the same mob. If, for whatever reason you don't have factory warranty on the car go through it with a fine tooth comb, trying all electrical bits, making sure everything works as it should prior to the 3month / 5000km warranty runnign out.

They use a workshop next to Clyde station for their warranty work... I needed to visit them a few times in the first 3 months.

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2013, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simple6

To be honest, I don't know why you'd think that's part of the deal? I wouldn't think the dealer would think you meant that either, mainly because, as I said, those fees are charged by the RMS not he dealer. I don't think a dealer would have the capacity to even process a transfer.

If the OP has explained exactly how it the deal played out then they have taken the seemingly inexperienced buyer for a ride.

If the deal was promised to 'include all fees', then a person is to expect to pay the price and drive away... All fees means all fees.

Read between the lines with what has happened here...

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2013, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_o

i'm looking at the tax invoice i have right now and i can see a GST of 10% of the sale price. is GST and stamp duty the same? but i guess this is not the GST of the transfer?

GST and transfer fee are 2 different things.

When you said "The dealer wasn't able to show me the logbooks yet" do you mean the car log books / service history??

Did they say that they were to be included in the sale, at the time of negotiations??

Good luck.

jeff_o · 02-06-2013, 08:25 PM

yes, at that time they could not find the log books/service history. so i made a deposit with the condition that the log books will be shown to me and the logbooks are ok.

my orig q was is GST and stamp duty the same? i thought GST and duty are simply TAX so they're interchangeable.

KIWI-1 · 02-06-2013, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_o

yes, at that time they could not find the log books/service history. so i made a deposit with the condition that the log books will be shown to me and the logbooks are ok.

my orig q was is GST and stamp duty the same? i thought GST and duty are simply TAX so they're interchangeable.

Isn't Stamp Duty a State tax and GST a Federal tax passed on to the States?
edit
...and Transfer yet another State tax?

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2013, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_o

yes, at that time they could not find the log books/service history. so i made a deposit with the condition that the log books will be shown to me and the logbooks are ok.

my orig q was is GST and stamp duty the same? i thought GST and duty are simply TAX so they're interchangeable.

Yes and no LOL....

The duty is a 'transfer fee'....

Regarding the books. Was this agreement verbal or does it state in clear words that the books and service history are also to be handed over upon collection?

jeff_o · 02-06-2013, 08:41 PM

it was verbal agreement. i know i should have it written down but hey from what I remembered, i dont recall signing anything except for the credit card slip.

hopefully my memory serves me correct. i dont recall signing any agreement documents.

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2013, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_o

it was verbal agreement. i know i should have it written down but hey from what I remembered, i dont recall signing anything except for the credit card slip.

hopefully my memory serves me correct. i dont recall signing any agreement documents.

Ok... this may be your way out.

If you have paid by credit card you may be able to use the banks to reverse the tranaction. "Goods not as described"..

Verbal agreement... of course it was. I doubt they have the books. When you arrange to collect the car (should the transaction go ahead) the salesperson you dealt with would have had the day off, so you cannot even confront them regarding what was promised compared to what was delivered.....

Please... don't do anything till you make a few phone calls, and clarify your situation exactly.... Don't pay any money, don't collect the car.

Call the bank as well. If they offer to start the process to re-claim your deposit use that against the dealership.... if they don't want to play ball, try to get the transaction reversed.

Please, don't go into the dealership thinking this was all some big mis-understanding, or that it was an honest mistake. Be abrupt and upfront with them, explaining firmly what was promised and what you expect and don't allow them to fob you off.

So far you have been lied to, mis-lead and sold a car that was mis-represented. Think about it.....

**PG2** · 02-06-2013, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_o

it was verbal agreement. i know i should have it written down but hey from what I remembered, i dont recall signing anything except for the credit card slip.

hopefully my memory serves me correct. i dont recall signing any agreement documents.

Not trying to be smart, but how many things did you sign? You say that you only signed the credit card slip but then say that you don't recall signing any agreement.

If you only signed one thing, well, I would say that you are pretty safe that you didn't sign any agreement. Surely you would remember how many things that you signed or at least signing more than one thing.

jeff_o · 02-06-2013, 09:06 PM

@yellowfestiva: thanks i'll follow your advice. so far i have been straight with them. i was in the dealership only for 1 hr. during that time i was able to inspect, test drive and made an offer. things might have happened fast but i thought these guys are no bull. but i guess dealers will be dealers!

ill give em a call tomoro to clarify, hopefully we work something out. worse case it's a credit card reversal. what happens on credit card reversal? do the banks chase the merchant?

jeff_o · 02-06-2013, 09:08 PM

i remember only signing 1 which is the credit card slip. i dont recall signing any A4 sized paper. darn im getting old!

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2013, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PG2

Not trying to be smart, but how many things did you sign? You say that you only signed the credit card slip but then say that you don't recall signing any agreement.

If you only signed one thing, well, I would say that you are pretty safe that you didn't sign any agreement. Surely you would remember how many things that you signed or at least signing more than one thing.

I guess the chap paid the deposit by credit card, and signed the slip rather than used the PIN.

The agreement, I assume is the paperwork for the car.

I woul find it odd that no agreement was signed at the handover of the deposit, if that is indeed the case.

KIWI-1 · 02-06-2013, 09:13 PM

I would expect that you would have a copy of all paperwork you signed?

**PG2** · 02-06-2013, 09:16 PM

Whether you signed that agreement or not will be the issue. Contrary to what a lot of people believe (this is not a dig at you Yellow Festiva) you can get into trouble for cancelling credit card payments for no reason.

Even if you do cancel the credit card payment and you have signed an agreement the dealership can still take you to court for 5% of the purchase price. I am not trying to scare you either - most dealerships will not take this action but it is an option for them.

Before going down that road of cancelling the credit card payment, go in there first thing in the morning if you can and speak with them. Now if they play hard ball then up the ante. You never know you may be able to come to some sort of agreement where everyone is happy. They won't want to lose your business that easily.

Keep one thing in mind, if they don't have the log books, you don't have to buy the car.

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2013, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PG2

Whether you signed that agreement or not will be the issue. Contrary to what a lot of people believe (this is not a dig at you Yellow Festiva) you can get into trouble for cancelling credit card payments for no reason.

Not at all offended.

No worries.

jeff_o · 02-06-2013, 09:25 PM

i'm currently looking at the papers they gave me.
1. receipt for the 500 deposit
2. tax invoice for the remaining balance and purchase of the car
3. 2 pages of PPSR report

I don't see anything that I have signed. to add to the complexity... the dealer gave me both credit card slips: customer copy and merchant copy with my signature!

PG2: i will give them a call tomorrow first thing. i live far from them (epping vs. smithfield). i have no car and just got lucky last saturday as i was able to borrow my mate's car. i'll try to speak to him over the phone, hopefully i'll be able to grab hold of him as today was unsuccessful.

PG2: but let's say i take the cancel payment route (worst case), isn't this a valid reason where i was mislead by the price and now cancelling due to false advertisement?

FGII-XR6 · 02-06-2013, 09:32 PM

your transfer fee and stamp duty are nothing to do with the dealer or the transaction. it is a fee payable post purchase except with a new car. the dealer has no legal or moral obligation to pat this fee . I understand that you are new to this country but when you asked about fine print there was none as the dealer has nothing to do with this RMS fee
if you try a credit card reversal when they have a valid and legal sale recorded not only will it fail but they could lodge a police report resulting in criminal charges. make sure before you do this that you have a valid and legal case

**PG2** · 02-06-2013, 09:35 PM

Sorry mate but the fact that they did not disclose the transfer fee and stamp duty is not legally wrong. Absolutely, it is morally wrong but not legally wrong.

If you haven't signed an agreement you are ahead - and behind. It does not say anywhere that it is subject to seeing the log books. Don't panic though, if you have discussed this with the 'salesperson' verbally.

As Yellow Festiva has said, be strong, don't back down and feel pressured into something that you not comfortable with. Do you have a friend that can offer you support?

Any dramas, before you do anything get back on the forum with their proposal and I'll have a look at the forums tomorrow afternoon.

You can take this either way you want, but..... I was a car salesman for fifteen years (have been out of it for about five years). So yes, I do know how it all works.

FGII-XR6 · 02-06-2013, 09:47 PM

it is not morally wrong when you consider that it not a dealer fee. the dealer would have an expectation that someone with a drivers licence would know that there are post sale government charges, this case is of course somewhat unusual but the dealer probably had no idea that the OP had no knowledge of government charges for all vehicle purchases

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2013, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

it is not morally wrong when you consider that it not a dealer fee. the dealer would have an expectation that someone with a drivers licence would know that there are post sale government charges, this case is of course somewhat unusual but the dealer probably had no idea that the OP had no knowledge of government charges for all vehicle purchases

My friend married a person from OS and he got it licence swapped over to a full Aussie one with little fuss. Knowing the ins and outs of buying and selling a car had nothing to do with it.

Been here 18 months now. Ask him the details of how a car is bought and sold, as well as fees and he will still have no knowledge of the way it works.

If you were the salesperson, and an obvious newcomer to the country bought a car would you not mention the transfer fee? No even in general chat? You would not say, 'Don't forget mate, you got 2 weeks to change over the ownership'??

And if a buyer asked the question that the price was inclusive of all fees would you not mention it then again?

I bought a used car from Ford, and they gave me the option of a 'drive away' price or one without the transfer.