How important is handling to the average car buyer?

4.0i OHC · 15-02-2012, 07:09 PM

For January 2012, the top 5 sellers are the Mazda 3, Toyota Corolla, Holden Commodore, Holden Cruze and Hyundai i30. The Mazda 3 drove quite well (judging by my limited experience with the old model). However, it seems that the others in the

I recently had the opportunity to drive a VE E3 Clubsport R8 wagon. I was left severely underwhelmed. The 6 speed auto was atrocious (even taking into account my dislike for automatic transmissions), and the engine left me cold. However, the aspect that disappointed me most was the handling. You could feel how nose heavy the car was in corners. It felt like understeer which progressed into oversteer as you turned any corner (compared to the much more neutral Falcon). As well as this, there's an extreme lack of on-centre feel through the steering wheel. Moving the wheel slightly from side to side resulted in NOTHING. Steering responses were very dulled (matching the throttle response). Things became better as I moved further from centre, but they in no way matched the Falcon.
Yes, the Falcon isn't quite as dynamic as it was back in the AU days (mostly due to the heavily increased weight), but it's still streets ahead of the Commodore (its steering actually has some feel). Comparing the Commo to my dad's Mondeo is like chalk and cheese! Holden's advertising must be exceptional, as I couldn't think of any reason (with the exception of styling) that anyone would buy one over a Falcon. Is the availability of a wagon really that important? Besides, Ford has the exceptional Mondeo wagon.

I also had the opportunity to drive a Corolla. The Corolla's lack of steering feel is dangerous! The car understeers like crazy at the slightest hint of a corner. This car floated all over the road, like butter on a saucepan. As with the Commodore, there was so much play in the steering; no on centre feel at all. It reminded me of a Mercedes Benz in that while the steering completely lacked communication, it wasn't even light. Why buy one over a Focus? A 6 speed transmission?
I haven't driven the Cruze and i30, but by all reports they drive similarly.

I simply can't fathom why anyone is able to live with a car that drives like that. The aforementioned cars felt so lacking! On an enthusiast's forum, I don't expect people to be buying dire drives such as the Commodore, Cruze, Camry and Corolla. However, judging by the sales charts, these things are selling like hotcakes. I wonder what people's reasons are for buying such cars. How important is dynamics to the average car buyer?

Sorry about the negative assessment of the Commodore, but unlike some *cough* Joshua Dowling *cough* I didn't recieve any GMH branded pay packet.

Jim Goose · 15-02-2012, 07:17 PM

Most people out there arent "drivers", they are passengers in their own cars.
They only want to get from point A to point B, must have aircon, bluetooth, CD with ipod connectivity. Sadly day in and day out I also see a LOT of people just abusing their cars! ie driving fast on a very badly damaged road thus hitting pot holes at high speed.... bottoming out on culverts in the road.... jamming on their brakes at the last minute, instead of slowing down sooner.... going over speed bumps at high speed...

Handling isnt even though of by most.... but heaven forbid if their car falls apart sooner then later because they simply drive like idiots.

Nikked · 15-02-2012, 07:20 PM

The average buyer doesn't care about RWD/FWD, Torque, peak power, steering feel or 0-100 times.

**data_mine** · 15-02-2012, 07:22 PM

- fuel economy
- styles
- ipod connector
- price
- holden

I don't see handling in the list.

jpd80 · 15-02-2012, 07:26 PM

There's nowhere you can really try out the handling of your car these day unless you take it off road.
Apart for the stop light racers darting in and out of lanes and going around roundabouts at 80 kph,
there's not much call for good handling these days, soccer mums usually loads the kids in the SUV and off they go.

Sigh for the good old days,
These days, having fun in your car and enjoying the performance and handling is seen as very antisocial....

Franco Cozzo · 15-02-2012, 07:29 PM

Don't worry, Ford is in there with the woeful handling, my LV TDCI Focus is factory fit with crappy tyres and it body rolls like a boat and will understeer quite badly if you try push it into a corner, diesel engine is too heavy to have over the front wheels.

Still haven't driven anything that handles better than my WS Fiesta though, its like a go-kart.

just_pazz · 15-02-2012, 07:33 PM

most people are crap drivers that lack the ability to even recognise the difference between models of cars, let alone appreciate it. Hence the need for so many driver aids in cars and these artificially slow speeds we are forced to drive at.

just_pazz · 15-02-2012, 07:36 PM

well I've always felt that asking your front wheels to do three things sometimes in very quick succession is asking for trouble, so thats just the laws of physics mate. Leave the front wheels for steering and let the rear ones do some work.

FalconXR6 · 15-02-2012, 07:41 PM

Just because people don't buy a Falcon, doesn't mean they don't appreciate handling.

Quite the opposite could be true.

A Mazda 3 handles A-LOT better than an equivalent Falcon.

This, combined with the fact that the Mazda 3's are better equipped could be the reason why it's selling better.

My suggestion would be to re-think a buyers position; is it handling that buyers don't care about (my suggestion would be "no") or is it the 0-100 times that buyers don't care about as much as your average Falcon or Commodore buyer ??? Food for thought.

We all know why the Commodore sells; marketing and wicked discounting. Nothing more. Nothing less.

And standard features are important - it's what the car can offer you while your not ripping from 0-100 or tackling a round about at maximum attack speed.

FalconXR6 · 15-02-2012, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just_pazz

well I've always felt that asking your front wheels to do three things sometimes in very quick succession is asking for trouble, so thats just the laws of physics mate. Leave the front wheels for steering and let the rear ones do some work.

You need to take a proper handling FWD car for a week long spin (a quick 20 minute drive is no good) and come back and let us know what you think.

martyk54 · 15-02-2012, 07:44 PM

The fact that SUVs are so popular these days answers this question.. They all handle like rubbish. Most people wouldn't even know how to distinguish a car that handles well from one that doesn't anyway.

MAGPIE · 15-02-2012, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

I recently had the opportunity to drive a VE E3 Clubsport R8 wagon. I was left severely underwhelmed. The 6 speed auto was atrocious (even taking into account my dislike for automatic transmissions), and the engine left me cold. However, the aspect that disappointed me most was the handling. You could feel how nose heavy the car was in corners.

What exactly have you driven recently to compare it with ?

Some context is needed here, if all your comparing it to is a Mondeo & Corolla well of course it is going to feel nose heavy it's a V8.

Have you ever driven a 5.4 Falcon, they bring new meaning to the word nose heavy.

Holden/HSV offer a performance wagon... good on them. Nobody looking for a performance wagon is going compare one to a Mondeo wagon

just_pazz · 15-02-2012, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconXR6

You need to take a proper handling FWD car for a week long spin (a quick 20 minute drive is no good) and come back and let us know what you think.

You are right ..... I am not really qualified to comment on the handling of modern front wheel drives cars as my experiences with them have been fleeting at best but the prejudice runs deep with me and I just cannot bring myself to consider them. Since I was a boy there has always been a large rwd sedan parked in the driveway, and my father always made sure no one in the family drove a car that was fwd. Dangerous, especially in the wet he always told me .... I know things have changed greatly with fwd in the past couple of decades but with me even a fwd that clearly was great handling I would find a reason to hate on it.

Long live RWD and oversteer!

EDIT: and the Falcon!!

Franco Cozzo · 15-02-2012, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just_pazz

well I've always felt that asking your front wheels to do three things sometimes in very quick succession is asking for trouble, so thats just the laws of physics mate. Leave the front wheels for steering and let the rear ones do some work.

My WS Fiesta is one of the best cornering cars I've driven, has a stiff suspension, electric power steering which is dead on accurate and continental tyres, you can basically throw it into a corner hard and it just goes around.

But its about a good 250-300kg lighter than the Focus at 1088kg.

jpd80 · 15-02-2012, 07:59 PM

Driving an LV Focus auto ATM, what an A55clown of a car in the wet...
FWD sucks blows, wipes and needs another roll of toilet paper after that...

just_pazz · 15-02-2012, 08:02 PM

I think there is a relevant link between handling of fwd cars and weight. That's why the though of a front wheel drive d size being forced on us makes me spew a little in my mouth.

calais · 15-02-2012, 08:47 PM

Seems as though you have forgotten that the E3 Clubsport Wagon is a nigh on 1800kg vehicle. With a V8..... even though its all alloy it's still quite a mass to have hanging over the front axle-line.

I dont really care for anyone who says their commodore or falcon should be handling like a Lotus Elise, it's simple physics in action that something as large as a commodore of falcon will feel heavier and thus somewhat dull handling wise.

If you want handling, go and drive a Lotus Elise or a Caterham. Thats handling with a capital H!

As far as "performance oriented" family cars are concerned, all I am looking for is something stable, smooth, and predictable. Vicious or unpredictable handling characteristics have no place being exhibited by my family car IMHO.

EDManual · 15-02-2012, 09:06 PM

take a current model renault clio sport rs or magane rs for a spin to drive a great handling Fwd car! They dont compare to mazda 3s, compare to a focus rs.

SumoDog68 · 15-02-2012, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just_pazz

You are right ..... I am not really qualified to comment on the handling of modern front wheel drives cars as my experiences with them have been fleeting at best but the prejudice runs deep with me and I just cannot bring myself to consider them. Since I was a boy there has always been a large rwd sedan parked in the driveway, and my father always made sure no one in the family drove a car that was fwd. Dangerous, especially in the wet he always told me .... I know things have changed greatly with fwd in the past couple of decades but with me even a fwd that clearly was great handling I would find a reason to hate on it.

Long live RWD and oversteer!

EDIT: and the Falcon!!

In slippery conditions FWD is actually a safer option :-) especially for an average driver .

Nikked · 15-02-2012, 09:21 PM

And thus, the sinking of the great thread via a FWD/RWD iceburg.

Slowly it subsides into a cold and horrible depth.

Jim Goose · 15-02-2012, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

In slippery conditions FWD is actually a safer option :-) especially for an average driver .

you have never turned the steering wheel in a front wheel drive car in slippery conditions and continued on straight ahead with wheels pointing the wrong way then?

I cant see how you can say a front wheel drive is safer in slippery conditions?

Nikked · 15-02-2012, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

you have never turned the steering wheel in a front wheel drive car in slippery conditions and continued on straight ahead with wheels pointing the wrong way then?

That would mean you are going to fast for the conditions...or just simply bad driving, or poor tires...

**SSD-85** · 15-02-2012, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Most people out there arent "drivers", they are passengers in their own cars.
They only want to get from point A to point B, must have aircon, bluetooth, CD with ipod connectivity. Sadly day in and day out I also see a LOT of people just abusing their cars! ie driving fast on a very badly damaged road thus hitting pot holes at high speed.... bottoming out on culverts in the road.... jamming on their brakes at the last minute, instead of slowing down sooner.... going over speed bumps at high speed...

Handling isnt even though of by most.... but heaven forbid if their car falls apart sooner then later because they simply drive like idiots.

I think this answers the question posed. In summary; No, they couldnt care less about their own car, let alone its handling characteristics.

Franco Cozzo · 15-02-2012, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

you have never turned the steering wheel in a front wheel drive car in slippery conditions and continued on straight ahead with wheels pointing the wrong way then?

I cant see how you can say a front wheel drive is safer in slippery conditions?

More weight directly over the steering/driving wheels, double edged sword I guess.

Which is another reason why FWD is popular in the USA.

Ford_The_Win · 15-02-2012, 09:29 PM

Who cares about the average car buyer? The average car buyer is a braindead moron.

Nikked · 15-02-2012, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

Who cares about the average car buyer? The average car buyer is a braindead moron.

Yet, they are the ones making up a majority of sales, sales that make money for a company, companys that create jobs, jobs that provide for families...

Families that survive on that income, and pay taxes that go towards braindead morons that won't go out and get a job...

Jim Goose · 15-02-2012, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

That would mean you are going to fast for the conditions...or just simply bad driving, or poor tires...

And the difference between that and a RWD drive car whose tail slides out when going round a corner is?

My point being is that there is no way anyone can say that a FWD car is safer then a RWD in slippery conditions.

And my experience i was referring to was when i was 18.....

Mr Hardware · 15-02-2012, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

I also had the opportunity to drive a Corolla. The Corolla's lack of steering feel is dangerous! The car understeers like crazy at the slightest hint of a corner. This car floated all over the road, like butter on a saucepan.[/I]

An interesting assessment. The reason why you find the Corolla to feel different is because it has Electric Power Steering. I certainly agree it doesn't load up like a falcon.
Which model did you drive?
My conquest has the larger rims & tyres and I find the handling to be sterile, but it does go exactly where you tell it to.

Why did I choose a corolla? 7.5L/100klms, 5 star crash safety and damn good HVAC. Oh and reliability and resale.

new2ford · 15-02-2012, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyk54

The fact that SUVs are so popular these days answers this question.. They all handle like rubbish.

Um, haven't you forgotten about the Ford Territory? There are some good Euro ones too but you're right about the rest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

And thus, the sinking of the great thread via a FWD/RWD iceburg.

Slowly it subsides into a cold and horrible depth.

I grew up on the original BMC front wheel drives and they were fantastic and left RWD for dead. That company knew though that it was best for small cars. Since then, manufacturers have used it save costs on any size car, weight has been piled on and the balance of the car is often poorly sorted. RWD is better for a larger car but a small FWD can be good if it's well-designed, There's the rub!

The answer to the OP is that most people just want to get from A to B and don't know or care anything about how a car drives - and judging by the number of Toyotas in the right lane of multilane roads they don't know or care anything about how they drive either!

Franco Cozzo · 15-02-2012, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2ford

I grew up on the original BMC front wheel drives and they were fantastic and left RWD for dead.

Honda from the 90s to early-mid 2000s used to be the kings of FWD cars, particularily DC2/5 Intega Type R/S or the EP3 Civic Type R.

Now, Renault has a damn good idea on FWD when it comes to their Renault Sport line, those cars are mental.