1994-1999 Hilux Surf or SR5

[GTP-814]

I am think of getting a diesel Hilux Surf as a cheap daily run around & save the GT for weekend pleasure.

Does anyone have experience with reliability of this model range & if so what sort of things should I look for. Like I am aware of the need to change the timing belt every 100K, but wonder what else.

Many thanks in advance

[blownba]

My old man has one.
I bought it with 60K on it never regoed in Aus.
Its been pretty good but I look after a few of them and they have their faults, believe me.
It wouldn't be my first choice for a daily.
I'll run through what I know about the diesels as the majority are diesel turbo.
They do suffer from head cracks. The heads are a little fragile on the 2.4's.
Go for a 3.0L if you want one. the 2.4 is a complete slug.
The 3.0's are a bit tougher engine and ECM wise.
The injector pumps HATE our diesel. I have replaced NUMEROUS Surf pumps.
Our diesel attacks the seals and they leak like no ones business when they fail.
Pretty pricey fix too. With labour a brand new pump fitted and tuned is close to $2000!!!
My diesel guys say that the Surfs need to be pushed as much as possible as they are designed as a high revving diesel, I hate that. When you push them they just make smoke and noise and go nowhere. I prefer to use the awesome mid range torque from the turbo diesel and short shift them. I find they go MUCH quicker if you do that and I am sure it is a heap better for them than holding the foot flat to the floor and letting it change for you....

A few tips.
Get yourself a good quality diesel fuel conditioner/ additive and use it with each tank fill. This alone will keep fuel system clean and help to lubricate the pump.
My old man uses a conditioner which is only available to the auto industry and as soon as he started using it he picked up 40Km's extra to a tank of fuel and smoke decreased markedly.

Make sure you change auto oil every 40,000km MAX as they can be problematic if you do alot of towing or drive them hard. I use a full synthetic Penrite autofluid and the difference it makes in shift feel is remarkable.
I would also recommend changing the diff (both) and transfer case oils with a full synthetic product (I use Penrite Sin range) as they will provide superior protection when compared to the OEM product especially in our Aussie heat.
I would recommend using the Penrite HPR diesel 15 OR HPR diesel 5 in newer, low Km engines. I use it in almost all of the ones I look after and they ALWAYS come back for the next service with a full load of oil. Other oils I have used will always disappear.
I also run a can of Threebond foaming intake cleaner (the diesel version) though the intake and throttle (and intercooler if you have one) every service, to remove oil build up from there. It has a dramatic impact on performance. You can run a oil catch can but I have been told not to do it by a performance diesel builder as it can cause other issues that would make any performance gain offset by the damage it can cause.
Timing belt is no big deal. If it hasn't been done I would highly recommend doing it as a full kit. That means all the idler pulleys, tensioner pulley, all oil seals and the belt and I would HIGHLY recommend doing the water pump while its all apart cause 6 times out of 7 it will spit the pump a few months after a new belt has been fitted.
Pay particular attention to the lower crankshaft seal as it runs a sleeve on the crank that the seal runs on. Make sure you run a smear of high quality silicone sealant on the inside of this sleeve as it will weep oil through it and make it look like the crank seal is leaking and make sure you don't pinch the seal when re-fitting the sleeve.

The standard suspension is too soft for any serious off road or towing. I often remove the stupid electronic shockers and fit Heavy duty coils in the back and heavy duty torsion bars in the front with good quality foam cell 4WD shockers.
Make sure you get one that has good control arm bushes in the front lower arms. they have a tenancy to rip if they have been on hard roads. Try to stay away from Nolathane or urethane replacements as I find they do not last anywhere near as long as the genuine items. The genuine bushes feel the best on the road and outlast any other bush I have ever fitted to them, even in extreme conditions.

The radio's don't work on FM properly. You can get a converter to plug into the aerial to make it work with the Aussie stations, or rip it all out and put a proper head unit in.


The only other thing I can say is COOLANT, COOLANT, COOLANT.!!!
You MUST make sure you have a spotless cooling system. Flush it every 2 years if you use the genuine. Make sure you remove the thermostat and all hoses and use compressed air and water to flush out all sediment from the block and rad core.
Use a good quality corrosion inhibitor OR a good hybrid organic coolant. Hybrid organic is the top of the line as it will protect ALL components of the cooling system where some organic coolants will not protect the lead solder of the radiators. I see alot of leaks from the top and bottom tanks from poor cooling system maintenance.
They do have a tenancy to eat radiators and alloy cooling system components if you do not stay on top of the coolant condition. I did one last week where it needed a brand new radiator and some alloy housings that were all corroded away due to poor maintenance. Pretty pricey once you add a half a dozen heater hoses, 2 rad hoses and thermostat and coolant. And I have reported coolant flush to this guy the last 3 services he had.


Thats the main things I can think of. Sorry for rambling on for so long but I though I would help you as much as I could and that way you can make a more informed decision. As I said not my first choice as a daily, especially if you want to drive it a bit hard.
An Aussie delivered version is better as it is more suited to our conditions and the auto trans shift points are far better too.

Hope that helps.
If you have any other questions I'll try to help you with them too.
The petrol versions are a whole different kettle of fish but a little better in the engine department in some respects.

[old_mate]

like all diesels, they need to have had the oil changed every 5000k's.
If you get a hilux, be warned the 2.8 or 3 litre atmo diesels are SLOW. Surf's had problems blowing heads, i think on the 2.4L motors?

Pick of the bunch is 1kzte 3 litre turbo diesel. I have one in my 02 SR5 and its great. Its not a race car by any means, a newer common rail diesel in the navara/hilux/ranger blows its doors in but its still got enough to get the lux along nicely. Way, way better than an atmo motor.

http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/forum/ all the info u could want on surf's

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/ good 4x4 forum

[Kryton]

Hilux Surf and cheap run around dont go in the same sentence.
Stay away from the petrol variant, even on gas itll cost you a fortune to run.

Is there a particular reason you were looking at a 4wd or did you just like the look of it?
If you have no use for a 4wd, then dont bother getting one as a cheap run around as none of them are cheap to run.

[LANKY 1]

They look great though, i wanted one, but me bro explained how they are not really made for Aus, and the cracked heads is a big problem. Blownba hit the nail on the head, backs up what my bro said

[old_mate]

Originally Posted by davway

Hilux Surf and cheap run around dont go in the same sentence.
Stay away from the petrol variant, even on gas itll cost you a fortune to run.

Is there a particular reason you were looking at a 4wd or did you just like the look of it?
If you have no use for a 4wd, then dont bother getting one as a cheap run around as none of them are cheap to run.

I have found my hilux very cheap to run. It's very good on diesel, and if maintained properly nothing breaks. Servicing can cost a bit but if you're prepared to it yourself it's not much different than any other car. I am due to replace front CV's now, first time i've touched it in a few years (only needs boots but i'll do the whole lot as insurance)

[tezxr8man]

Surfs are a car that are OK until you need to fix them and replace parts, It'd be ok if they had regular Hilux parts but just for an example there are three diff clutches for the diesel and its all a random thing, you can have 3 of the same spec cars with identical driveline and have a dif 1 in each. its like a big bowl of fruit salad Good luck
being a spare parts guy i dread having anything to do with them for that reason, and workin on them aint much better

[blownba]

Same story with the brakes.
3 different types. No 2 are the same.
My old mans one runs a set of front pads that you cannot get aftermarket.
I have to get a set for hilux and cut the little warning scrapers and that section off the inner pads to get the right combination of pad with the correct amount of lining width.
Its a godddam nightmare.
And to make things worse it goes through pads REALLY quickly.
My old man drives like a SNAIL and I have already done 3 sets of front pads.
His old BJ74 series mid wheel base turbo diesel cruiser did 420,000kms from new and he only did 5 sets of pads all up!!!!!!!!! And that is NO word of a lie.

Now if ya want a REAL tough daily 4wd thats what I would go for.
A good turbo diesel Landcruiser.
Dads was the 13BT engine like what is in the Dyna's. It was rediculously tough, never missed a beat and I still sold it for 10.5 K with 420,000Km's on the clock cause the engine and driveline were still in unbelievably good condition.
That thing never went wrong, NEVER broke down on the road and Never not started first go.
We changed the oil every 5,000km religiously and did trans and diff oils with close regularity along with COOLANT flushes and it seriously never gave any issues.
The Surf on the other hand has already cost more to maintain and he has only done about 80K!!!
I look after quite a few Landcruisers and they ALL eat the Surf's for reliability and maintenance costs.
They also drive ALOT better.
They are the 4WD I would choose for Aussie conditions.
The Surf is made for Japanese wannabee's and has been configured just so.
Like I said drive a Cruiser of the same vintage then drive a surf.... You will see what I mean. They are like Chalk and cheese.

I would go for a mid wheel base turbo diesel 70 or 75 series cruiser. You might pay a little more to begin with but it would pay off in the long run.
Awesomely reliable 4wd. Haven't seen many brands or models come close to them in reliability and performance.

[smoo]

Not all of the 2.4 diesels are bad, the NA 2.4 diesels are pretty much bullet proof with correct servicing. We've a few kicking around at work, trouble free, our workshop hack is a single cab 2.4 flatdeck, got its **** handed to it by a customers 480hp MAN truck so you can imagine how bad they'd be in a Surf body.
But it's when they stuck the turbo on things turned bad, the design of the exhaust caused excess heat at the head cracking it. Early 3.0 V6s are no better and are known to crack heads too (same engine as Camry?), all motors are gutless, V6 will drink like a V8 but is nearly as slow as the diesel. These things with IFS are pretty poor off road too despite the myths that anything Toyota is good.

Not that I'd own a jappa but I'd go for a later model 3.0 diesel, we have a few at work used as field service utes, pretty trouble free, only gone thru a couple of rear diffs and thats it.

[GTP-814]

hey guys, thanks for all of the fantastic info, as it will help me to know what to look out for. I thought of the Surf because its a diesel first and thought it would be a miser of fuel as a car to get to work or leave at the train station (i dont like leaving the GT there). Plus it would be solid & take all of the kids to sport etc, with a bit of fun on the weekend. I coulnt find a diesel family size sedan from the 90's, so I thought of this path. A mate had one years ago to care all of his dive gear, tanks etc & it went ok. But age weary's them. I only want to get a manual & probably the TD 3lt (is there such a thing) so it not a slug. How would then Sufr/Sr5 compare in fuel usage as compared to the 70/75 series cruiser?

[rossi]

I've had a surf for the last 4 years now. Never had a prob with it, because I look after it. It sh*ts me to tears when people comment on; 2.4 blow heads, or injector pumps cost thousands to rebuild, because they heard it from a mate of a mate, so therefor won't buy one.

Surfs overheat and crack heads as there is a design flaw with the radiator. The outlet because of the tranny cooler blocks 2/3 of the flow. Doesn't help
when towing / 4wd'ing. Get an aftermarket radiator and you'll have no probs.

I'm also about to throw a 5l with the turbo into mine for the extra grunt needed for towing.

I've had more probs with the 5 fords i've owned, than I've had with my surf.

[nstg8a]

lol, 2.4s are well known for head problems for a reason... but if treated right they are fine, a decent big bore exhaust will stop it most of the time, as stated its a poor design exhaust that causes the head problems.

ifs is fine for off roading unless you wanna get real serious or plan on running huge wheels and tyres, then the cv's start popping and you run into the limitations off the ifs.

i had an older surf back home, but with the 2.4 td, and it was fine, had a rebuilt motor when i got it, i put a big exhaust on it and it never had an issue.

you just have to accept the fact theyre slow, and cruise in them, no point trying to cane them, cos all it will do is use fuel and make noise and smoke.

for what the op wants i reckon they would be fine, but i do agree with one comment made, if you can afford it get a later model one with the 13bt, they are brilliant motors.

heres a quick pic of my old one on all its glory

[2.8L Hilux]

Go for it mate. As you can tell from my user name I used to have a '94 2.8 Diesel Hilux.
It was a brilliant car. I put about 50,000kms on it before it got written off with hail. In that time, I only ever had to replace a pitman arm and a leaky radiator. Although after 320,000kms of driving it was expected.
On my way back from Fraser Island the best fuel economy it returned was 7.4L/100kms and around town it would always get 10L/100kms.
I think out of the factory they had around 70kws so they are painfully slow ;) It will sit on 100 clicks no worries, just getting there does take a while. The engine off road though it great, in low range you can go anywhere.
I'd certainly go for a Hilux over the Surf. Unless you've bought one that has already had the engine done up then you will certainly be up for a rebuild.
Heres a pic of the old girl.



If you jump on the Hilux Surf forum there is some very good info.
http://toyotasurf.asn.au/forum

Good luck with it mate

[myxr6]

You could always go here and get a conversion done.
link

[D.J.]

To try to dis-spell some of the "Garage Myths" about surf's ...

Yes, there is an issue with cracking heads if you don't do basic maintanance and upkeep on the cooling system (which is the same for any engine) and have not had any not trouble with mine at all. Oil changes every 5000 km also helps a lot to keep the crud from building up in the galleries. I re-newed the cooling system with std "off the shelf gear" from Toyota as a precaution (radiator recored with factory tanks). Have done some serious offroading with my auto version with boost raised to 12psi (max safe level with 20:1 compression and std internals) and it has not failed me due to engine/gearbox only CV's which is very reasonable considering where I take it.
The later 3.0 liter (1KZTE) version (93-95) is a much better motor and the 1st Prado sold here (90 series) was based on this running same driveline & chassis with a new body shell.

Parts, etc. are easy to get and are identical in every way to Aussie sold 4Runners except engine spec as none were sold through TMCA as turbo diesels however the same parts are used in the aussie sold 2LT & 3L as the jap spec 2LT & 2LTE.

Clutch is a dual diaphgram design and I agree with changing to a hilux solid flywheel & clutch setup is easier/better value in the long run. The gearboxes in them (R150) are tough as nails and have never heard of one breaking (they run them behind 1UZ V8 conversions).

Brakes are simple - in the 130 series (Aussie 4Runner body shape) only 2 different types, 8/89 - 8/91 42mm bore 4 pot caliper and 8/91 - 8/93 45mm bore 4 pot caliper (same as Aussie 4Runner). Both with slightly different sized rotor & brake pad to match.
When replacing the front pads, adjust the rear shoes and will stop wearing the pads out as fast and will stop better. Common issue with all drum rear hiluxes (and many sedans), the self-adjuster rarely self-adjusts .

I could go on but I think you get the idea, they are not anywhere near as bad as suggested just cause some see "import" and instantly add 2k to the repair price just from lack of knowledge.

All this, and much much more, is available for free on the Surf Forum.

Sorry for the novel tho as Ford owners, we are well aquainted with generalised "badge bashing", so just trying to put some real facts out there.
Have just pulled the factory fitted drive line in search of more HP ..... Ford 5.0 in the works :

I do actually "wheel it" offroad, not just on the keyboard : ....

[nstg8a]

^^^ that surf has had a lot of work lol...

what springs are you running in the rear to get flex like that? falcons?

nice sas conversion too

[atec77]

Originally Posted by GTP-814

I am think of getting a diesel Hilux Surf as a cheap daily run around & save the GT for weekend pleasure.

Does anyone have experience with reliability of this model range & if so what sort of things should I look for. Like I am aware of the need to change the timing belt every 100K, but wonder what else.

Many thanks in advance

They are very cheap for a reason
the 2.4 is gutless until you wind the turbo up and open the pump , when the pump seals go there is one available for $400 after market which will survive
when you break the 2.4 slot in a 3 litre and run the turbo so it goes like it should , change oils and filters often and auto fluid every 18 months
they suck in the dirt and go much better on home bio but of course drink gallons of the stuff , good luck if you do buy one and dont pay more than a couple of grand

[D.J.]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

^^^ that surf has had a lot of work lol...

what springs are you running in the rear to get flex like that? falcons?

nice sas conversion too

Yea, have worked with it a little.
Rear coils are from Lovells - std height, progressive rate, 80 series rears.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by D.J.

Rear coils are from Lovells

lol, i always thought they kept leaf springs right through, i learnt something new today

[InfernoSR]

Coming from a guy who used to work on the Surfs and custom making many cooling systems, and now working for Toyota in spares... i highly suggest the SR5 over the surf... compatibility of parts along is in the favour of the SR5...

[GTP-814]

Hi all I bought a 96 manual SSX 3lt TD surf to play with about a month ago. Engine has had a new head & is in excellent condthrouighoput. It is the imported model so it is full of creature comforts for a 14 year old car. Sold the GTP yesterday so it has become my daily drive till the new GT model comes out in a year