Help needed with a fiesta bought at a dealership

[PG2]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

it is not morally wrong when you consider that it not a dealer fee. the dealer would have an expectation that someone with a drivers licence would know that there are post sale government charges, this case is of course somewhat unusual but the dealer probably had no idea that the OP had no knowledge of government charges for all vehicle purchases

Fair enough. However did the OP tell the salesperson this? We don't know and maybe I should have clarified this before making that statement.

I am not for one second saying that the OP can or should pull out of the deal because of his lack of understanding of govt charges. Obviously the OP is not happy with the deal (buyer remorse?) and I am suggesting ways to deal with it so that everyone comes out happy.

However, what does concern me is that the salesperson did not get the OP to sign an agreement. Granted, that there can be a number of reasons for not getting certain customers to sign one but in this instance I can't think of any.

On the other hand, the OP can not say (remember) if he signed a sales agreement.

If he has signed an agreement and the log books turn up with the service history complete then he has no choice but to buy the car.

[jeff_o]

hmm ok i appreciate all your inputs mates! coming from the US, when you buy a car there from the dealer, whether used or new it is the dealer's responsibility to register and transfer it to the buyer's name (of course they will charge you). they won't let you drive it out of their lot if it's not on your name.

I was actually wondering how can you drive a car out of the dealership's lot (here in AUS) when it is under another person's name? i did not knew about the 14 day grace period of transfer either (now i know).

This is probably a miss on my end, but was expecting the dealer to be helpful and guiding in terms of buying car.

anyhow, i will give them a call tom and update you guys. i still can't remember signing a an agreement with all the small font disclaimers, conditions and agreement terms. i really don't recall signing any. if yes, the person should've at least summarized what i was signing. all i remember he showed me a predelivery paper bulleting what's to be done with the car (e.g detail, check this that, fluids, etc). sign the credit card receipt.. and that's it.

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by jeff_o

I was actually wondering how can you drive a car out of the dealership's lot (here in AUS) when it is under another person's name? i did not knew about the 14 day grace period of transfer either (now i know).

what happen in regard to this Jeff is on sale the seller , be it private or dealer lodges a notice of disposal with the buyers details on it. once this is lodged the RMS has a record of the new owner and the new owner is then responsible for the vehicle regardless of if the transfer is complete.
I'm sure it has been a steep learning curve for you but at least you know for any future purchases. As I mentioned earlier the stamp duty is only included in a new car purchase , this is due to the fact that a new registration needs to be established in the owners name and therefore these fees are payable when the registration is established

[Crazy Dazz]

Not sure what some people are on about. It is common for dealers to advertise “drive away no more to pay” which means that the stamp duty and transfer IS included in the price.
Clearly they’re saying that wasn’t the case here, but it is not uncommon.

In this case the OP has clearly conveyed that intent to the dealer, even if he has signed an offer that contradicts that, they are still guilty of deceptive conduct. (Impossible to prove unfortunately.)

I would find it very strange if they did not get you to sign an offer, that is absolutely standard procedure for every car yard.

Either way they CANNOT keep your deposit.

Deposits are taken to make it INCONVENIENT for you to back out. If you fail to proceed with the sale, their only LEGAL option is to sue for breech on contract. Theoretically they can ask for specific performance, however they are also required to mitigate their loss, which in practice means they have to resell the vehicle. You are then only liable for anything they lose.

But it will NEVER get to that. They will try to bluff and bully you.
Unfortunately your only option is to be even more unreasonable back. Take friends with you for moral support. Friends with big beards and tats come in handy for this.
Waste THEIR time, do not leave, be belligerent and LOUD.

Their preference will be to reach a compromise, to keep the deal in place. How much is the stamp duty? They may offer you something worth maybe half if you push them. They generally NEVER want to cancel a deal.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Not sure what some people are on about. It is common for dealers to advertise “drive away no more to pay” which means that the stamp duty and transfer IS included in the price.
Clearly they’re saying that wasn’t the case here, but it is not uncommon.

In this case the OP has clearly conveyed that intent to the dealer, even if he has signed an offer that contradicts that, they are still guilty of deceptive conduct. (Impossible to prove unfortunately.)

Garbage, read the link I posted - the dealer has done NOTHING wrong.

It is now clear that the OP has misunderstood the transaction because he assumed that what happens in the USA happens in AUS.

As I suggested, IMHO his best bet is go back to the dealer, explain the misunderstanding and (on friendly terms) negotiate a solution that suits both parties.

[jeff_o]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Garbage, read the link I posted - the dealer has done NOTHING wrong.

It is now clear that the OP has misunderstood the transaction because he assumed that what happens in the USA happens in AUS.

As I suggested, IMHO his best bet is go back to the dealer, explain the misunderstanding and (on friendly terms) negotiate a solution that suits both parties.

well i actually did conveyed that my offer includes all the fees and everything to own the car. i said my offer is this and includes "everything". I meant (as other refer to it as) drive-away.

i will try to find out tomorrow about the sales agreement, since i don't recall signing a sales agreement. i think i may be able to back out from the purchase and get my deposit back.

i still prefer to work something out with the seller, after all i need a car and i like that car, so we will see

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Garbage, read the link I posted - the dealer has done NOTHING wrong.

It is now clear that the OP has misunderstood the transaction because he assumed that what happens in the USA happens in AUS.

try READING the OP, and EVERY reply he has posted.

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Take friends with you for moral support. Friends with big beards and tats come in handy for this.
Waste THEIR time, do not leave, be belligerent and LOUD.

Good to see sound intelligent advice being given.
when I was in sales we would do our best to resolve conflict but if the customer was a lowlife who used tactics that caused disturbance we would call the police and have them removed and would then dig in and enforce the legally binding agreement ( most car sales contracts include a 10% forfeit in the event of cancellation) .
intimidation was never tolerated and would rule out any friendly negotiation.
a good rule of thumb is to try friendly negotiation , especially if you have no legal standing and at least try to get them to meet you half way. they have no obligation to do so but may as an act of good faith if you are rational and reasonable ( as opposed to being a loud mouth criminal thug like in the example above) . if they say no chalk it down to experience, learn from it and move on.
remember drive away means how much you have to pay the dealer to drive off the lot and does not include post sale expenses , or would some of you complain that having to fuel the car in the first 2 weeks is a breach of no more to pay ( same thing it is a post sale non dealer charge)

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by jeff_o

i still prefer to work something out with the seller, after all i need a car and i like that car, so we will see

Indeed however you need to be aware that despite their assertions and smiles they will generally NOT be “reasonable.” You MUST be prepared to stand your ground and get belligerent.
Unfortunately the more “reasonable” you appear, the more they will think they can bluff and bully you.

When I worked in the city I would visit dealers neatly presented in my suit and tie, and generally they tried to push me around because they assumed I would be civilised and “reasonable.”
Now that I work in the bush, I rock up in my boots & crappy clothes, with my long hair and untamed facial hair, I swear like a miner, and I get better service because the assume that I won’t put up with their crap.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

Good to see sound intelligent advice being given.
when I was in sales we would do our best to resolve conflict but if the customer was a lowlife who used tactics that caused disturbance we would call the police and have them removed and would then dig in and enforce the legally binding agreement ( most car sales contracts include a 10% forfeit in the event of cancellation)

Sure, and if you knew a fraction of what you pretend, then you would KNOW that that is absolutely unenforceable.

And where exactly did I suggest “behaving like a lowlife criminal scum”
I said take friends for moral support, and yes friends who look like they will actually support you do help, sitting meek & mild in a corner.

But you’re saying if a customer walked in and asked you nicely, you would just hand over the $500???
Guess that’s why you’re not in sales anymore.

Besides which, if you’d bothered reading the thread, you’d see that the OP has already spoken to them “nicely” and the dealer has been a typical ******** and threatened to gank his deposit.

[jeff_o]

ok guys i appreciate everyone's opinion on this and helping me out. i dont want this thread to start a flame or anything.

i will never resort to violence or tactics, so i will give them a polite call tomorrow and ask for the sales agreement that I have signed (if they can produce one). I don't think they asked me to sign one. All I have with me now are 1 receipt (deposit) 1 tax invoice (purchase price minus deposit) and a PPSR report.

Now if I did not sign a sales agreement, what are my next steps to get the deposit?

[PG2]

Jeff

Please take the advice that au3xr6 and myself are offering. It seems that au3xr6 is from a car sales background as well.

Just do what you said that you were going to do. au3xr6 is correct, if you go in there with all guns blazing they will dig their heels in. To say that the dealer would NEVER take it further is WRONG. I have seen cases of it happening.

Remember there is a difference between being aggressive and assertive. As I said earlier, be with a friend (they don't have to be a body guard) and if need be feel free to get some qualified opinions from this forum - that is unless a moderator locks the thread if we all continue to argue!

EDIT: Sorry you posted while I was typing. They will need to write you a cheque. Or you can cancel the credit card payment. Hopefully you can sort it out so you can have the car that you want.

[FGII-XR6]

if the paperwork is in order it is enforceable and we did win the one case we took to court to make an example of a low life who tried to rip us off. he tried to bring his mates too one hit the sales manager and did 12 months for his effort ( not his first time). I do know not just pretend and I am smart enough not to recommend violence and intimidation, but some people never grow up

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Sure, and if you knew a fraction of what you pretend, then you would KNOW that that is absolutely unenforceable.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by PG2

Remember there is a difference between being aggressive and assertive. As I said earlier, be with a friend (they don't have to be a body guard)

Correct.
Sorry if my colourful language implied being theatening. I suppose people have different definition of loud and beligerant.
As PG says, be ASSERTIVE, not submissive. Be POLITE, manners cost nothing, but make sure they understand that you will stick to your guns.

[Ibanezteve]

In my view a deposit is a guarantee that you will follow through with the purchase, so by reneging on the deal implies a forfeit of the deposit on your behalf. Out of curiosity what is the sale value of the car in question?

[jeff_o]

i never would've thought buying a car was this stressful LOL!

Fingers crossed everything will work out tom! hopefully the guy would take my call. he was away (busy as the manager said) whole day today at the yard entertaining customers etc etc.

hopefully I indeed did not sign any agreement. if that's the case, what do i do next?

I offered 12500 all included (to clarify my intent: including transfer fee and transfer duty) but did not say including transfer fee and transfer duty as I presumed it was included. i did put a 500 deposit yesterday.

just to give a background as 12500 is relative to each and everyone, i only had 12000 alloted for a car, i went there liked the car so was willing to go further 500 on credit. that is all I can afford (including the transfers) and 500 in my case is a lot.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

if the paperwork is in order it is enforceable and we did win the one case we took to court to make an example of a low life who tried to rip us off. he tried to bring his mates too one hit the sales manager and did 12 months for his effort ( not his first time).

and quite right too. Sorry if you thought my comments implied violence.
Obvioulsy you have expereinced the whole breadth of human MISbehaviour. I've no doubt you've had some right scumbags come through the door.
People even THREATENING violence should be reported to the police, and from a vendors point of view should be stood up to, and the contract enforced or damages sought.
If I thought the OP was that way inclined, I would not be suggesting beligerence. But (no offence to the OP) by his own addmission he has been a bit too trusting and naive. He is not a scumbag trying to rip them off, he simply wants what was verbally agreed to.

I will say, that SOME dealers are very reasonable. In fact my last two encounters with dealers have been noteworthy for their helpfulness.

However the OP has already said that he has spoken to the dealer, so I'm assuming this dealer isn’t one of them.

[FGII-XR6]

If you never signed the contract there is a bit of a grey area, by you paying they can claim a verbal contract did exist , a verbal contract can actually be enforced but the details are harder to prove so they are far less likely to pursue the matter. If the sales documents ( contract ) were shown to you at the time you paid this would reinforce their position . as I sais you would be entering a grey area that would only have 1 winner (the solicitors) .
Good luck, go in the way you have indicated , by all means be assertive but aggression will get you nowhere as I'm sure you know.
I think the best you can really hope for is a slight reduction to help cover part of you transfer, any more would be a big bonus

Originally Posted by jeff_o

ok guys i appreciate everyone's opinion on this and helping me out. i dont want this thread to start a flame or anything.

i will never resort to violence or tactics, so i will give them a polite call tomorrow and ask for the sales agreement that I have signed (if they can produce one). I don't think they asked me to sign one. All I have with me now are 1 receipt (deposit) 1 tax invoice (purchase price minus deposit) and a PPSR report.

Now if I did not sign a sales agreement, what are my next steps to get the deposit?

[Ibanezteve]

Mate, if you like the car, you may as well just buy it and pay the stamp duty and transfer fee. It will only be a couple of dollars. I've never heard of drive away no more to pay in a used car car yard.

[jeff_o]

Originally Posted by Ibanezteve

Mate, if you like the car, you may as well just buy it and pay the stamp duty and transfer fee. It will only be a couple of dollars. I've never heard of drive away no more to pay in a used car car yard.

i'm actually starting to have 2nd thoughts about the car. because when i inspected it, drive was ok. however 3 tires are shut which they will replace with used tires 80%. and my most concern was that when they started the car, the batts were dead and there's black liquid dripping at the muffler near the inlet from the pipe (not at the outlet), the outlet has some condensation which i know is sometimes normal.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

If you never signed the contract there is a bit of a grey area, by you paying they can claim a verbal contract did exist , a verbal contract can actually be enforced but the details are harder to prove so they are far less likely to pursue the matter. If the sales documents ( contract ) were shown to you at the time you paid this would reinforce their position . as I sais you would be entering a grey area that would only have 1 winner (the solicitors) .
Good luck, go in the way you have indicated , by all means be assertive but aggression will get you nowhere as I'm sure you know.
I think the best you can really hope for is a slight reduction to help cover part of you transfer, any more would be a big bonus

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, once they have a contract dealers are reluctant to release it (and understandably so, if they ripped up a contract everytime somebody complained, their business would be very difficult.)
They will usually try and reach a compromise, they might offer to tint the windows, fill the tank, etc. If you HAVE signed a contract, that is what you will probably need to accept.

If you haven’t signed a contract…

I have actually just remembered something… Once when buying a car, they wanted me to fill out a credit card slip and sign it, essentially as some kind of symbolic gesture, so that once the deal was done they could immediately charge my card for the deposit. So perhaps you haven’t actually done a deal yet? Have they actually charged your card?

They SHOULD have given you a copy of any contract you signed. Certainly not good practice if you signed and they didn’t give you a copy. They might have only had you sign an offer (which then becomes a contract when they accept it.)

IF NO agreement has yet been signed, then you should push that your verbal offer was to include all stamp duty and transfer fee. If they demure, well you can still negotiate, and if you’re not happy with the deal simply ask for your deposit back. If they refuse, contact consumer affairs (or whatever it is called now) then contact your bank and ask them to reverse the transaction.

To be honest, IF they have taken a deposit (and actually charged your card) without a signed agreement, and they are threatening to keep it, they SOUND like a dodgy dealer, and you’d be better off elsewhere.

I’ve had many “arguments” with dealers, and some are certainly very “sharp” when it comes to business, but mostly I have not dealt with anyone THAT dodgy.

[Ibanezteve]

Best case senario is to follow the advice of Pg2 and au3xr6, explain the misunderstanding and even tell a few fibs if need be, "financial situation has changed", "can't afford to continue with the purchase" etc. and if they are reasonable they will understand. If not, and you haven't signed any sort of agreement with them then you can demand your money back.

[jeff_o]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

So perhaps you haven’t actually done a deal yet? Have they actually charged your card?

no, my card was charged already with 500 and my offer has been accepted already too. no i dont have a copy of a signed (by me) sales agreement and don't recall signing one. i'll verify again tomorrow with the guy.

it's late for everyone and I appreciate all helping out and giving their inputs. it's always hard to move to a new place and learn everything from scratch in your midlife (plus crisis lol).

i'll keep everyone posted tomorrow. wish me luck fingers crossed.

[PG2]

Hey Jeff, go to bed, get some sleep and stop stressing. Speak to them in the morning.

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by jeff_o

i'm actually starting to have 2nd thoughts about the car. because when i inspected it, drive was ok. however 3 tires are shut which they will replace with used tires 80%. and my most concern was that when they started the car, the batts were dead and there's black liquid dripping at the muffler near the inlet from the pipe (not at the outlet), the outlet has some condensation which i know is sometimes normal.

tyre offer seems reasonable , better than re-treads that some dealers would fit. flat batteries were common in car yards when I worked in the game, usually wasn't an issue doors get left open by customers and car not started for a couple of days would normally do it we started the cars once or twice a week but things happen that can drain the battery if still faulty at delivery note it and get them to sign it so if the battery fails soon after delivery they will be more likely to replace it. generally a good run gets them back up with no dramas.

I would draw their attention to the exhaust prior to taking delivery . the problem would be warrantable but really best rectified pre delivery I never had a customer complain about a delayed delivery because I wanted the car to be right for them. back in the day I would never knowingly deliver a car with any defects. my opinion was that they only time I wanted to see a customer after delivery is them popping in during a routine service and telling me how good the car is or when the bring back a friend to buy off me.
unfortunately you are probably aware there is no cooling off period just because you change your mind

[EB#]

I have seen used cars offered in yards and their advertidsing at 'drive away' prices that
include transfer fee and stamp duty. Not common, but it's around.
Obviously this was not clear in the beginning for the OP.
Its also obvious that the salesperson did not highlight the transfer/stamp duty
when they could have, just from the perspective of good communication.

It looks like the main piece of paperwork that the OP has is a tax invoice for the
balance payment on the car. No contracts as such.

In this case, I would suggest that the OP return the tax invoice and ask for it to be
amended to include the other elements in your verbal agreement. ie the logbooks and
the transfer/stamp duty fees. By the way, if the logbooks aren't in the glovebox, they
may not be anywhere! If the books do show up, check them very carefully so that the
rego on the car and the books actually match.

[jeff_o]

Originally Posted by EB92

In this case, I would suggest that the OP return the tax invoice and ask for it to be
amended to include the other elements in your verbal agreement. ie the logbooks and
the transfer/stamp duty fees. By the way, if the logbooks aren't in the glovebox, they
may not be anywhere! If the books do show up, check them very carefully so that the
rego on the car and the books actually match.

I am thinking of just backing out completely, it seemed everything happened so fast and i went into a situation where i should've gathered more information about in the first place.

When I was there last sat, there were tons of packages inside the office for each car where the logbooks should've been kept. but they could not find a particular one for the fiesta.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Ibanezteve

Best case senario is to follow the advice of Pg2 and au3xr6, explain the misunderstanding and even tell a few fibs if need be, "financial situation has changed", "can't afford to continue with the purchase" etc. and if they are reasonable they will understand. If not, and you haven't signed any sort of agreement with them then you can demand your money back.

That is not a good idea.... it then makes it your fault that the deal didn't go through. They would be rightly entitled to keep the deposit due to the time wasted with a bogus buyer.

Jeff, you have been given several options and opinions. Most are based on sound advice IMO and I hope that it plays out to your benefit.

Good luck, keep us posted on how things go.

If the deal falls through, I can strongly vouch for a small family owned used car lot in St Ives that will not give you the run around.

I helped a mate buy a car just a few months ago and the 4 lots we visited prior to the last one tried every trick in the book, and used every BS line possible to get the sale.

My mate was shocked when I warned him of some of the common tactics used, and was more-so shocked when they actually did it in 4 of the 5 occasions.

Good Luck!

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by jeff_o

I am thinking of just backing out completely, it seemed everything happened so fast and i went into a situation where i should've gathered more information about in the first place.

When I was there last sat, there were tons of packages inside the office for each car where the logbooks should've been kept. but they could not find a particular one for the fiesta.

Don't give up your deposit without a fight..... if you show them you are serious about using all avenues to get it back they will generally not bother with it and refund your money.

A verbal agreement is a verbal agreement. Don't let ANYONE try and say that it didn't happen because it wasn't written down.

You have Fair Trading and possibly the Banks to help. If things go south when you try to sort things out with the dealership get the ball rolling the same day with taking it further. Often these processes take weeks...

[jeff_o]

ok, called them up today and the guy was busy (as always). called NSW fair trading and they suggested me to write a letter. I have written the below. can you guys kindly check it out and let me know what you think? If I have covered everything?

Dear Kurt, Used Car Sales Department
CarNet Auctions Smithfield
(address/phone)
Re: 2009 Ford Fiesta Zetec Gray 4dr 5spd (VIN)


On 01/06/2013, I placed a deposit of $500 for the above vehicle at your showroom in Smithfield. I made a total offer $12500 for the vehicle with the condition that:

• The logbooks and documents/manuals for the car are complete and up to date.
• There are 2 keys/fobs.
• There is just 1 previous owner.
• The vehicle had no accidents.
• All 4 (four) tires will be replaced with 195/50/16 with at least 80% tread depth with matching tread.
• The car will undergo 4 wheel alignment including an alignment report.
• Muffler leak on inner side will be checked and fixed for road worthiness.
• My total offer includes all fees and nothing else to pay (When we spoke, I specified “everything” including transfer fee and transfer duty to my assumption)

Since this is my first time to buy a used car from a dealership, I had asked you if there are any fine prints that I need to know and you responded there’s nothing else.

I tried reaching out to you the following day 02/06/2013 to clarify point 8 but you were not reachable. I was informed by Alan (surname) that the sale did not include the transfer fee and duty. Because of this I cannot afford to buy your vehicle anymore.

To resolve the problem, I request that you:

• Include the transfer fees and duty in my total offer. This would genuinely make my offer to cover all fees and nothing else to pay (as others term it as Drive-Away).
• Check and fix the gear shift lever light and the disconnected leather on the shift lever.
• Inspect the dead battery and replace subject to road worthiness

If you are unable to do the resolution above, I request you to refund me back my deposit as I was not informed about the transfer fee and duty.

I tried reaching out to you again today 03/06/2013 but you were not reachable. I look forward to hearing from you by 04/06/2013 latest. Please contact me at the above address, or by telephone (phone) or email (email).

Yours sincerely