The future for Ford workers: literacy will be key

[Kometes]

Originally Posted by Cheese3

Private Catholic Boys School , paid by the wages of my boiler maker father . . . Why you ask ?




It would mean that I would have to jump the fence and become something I mock

nah all serious though , I have thought about it and personally I would like to try something left of field and challenging. My old man says to me get my underwater welding tickets and my brother who is a Chemical Engineer (yes he is one of you, grrrrr) says try Mech eng . . .

On the subject of my brother though who is 4 years older , he quit being a chemical engineer for 3 years nearly to work as a rigger on building sites . . . He was getting more money and the experience he gained on the tools is priceless as the tradies he works with now are shocked that he knows the difference between a spanner and a hammer



Well I have never said a Teachers job is easy , my first initial post was reply to why Tradies should be paid less . . . It would be challenge and I would do my best to past if I don't party to much with the younger girls but with this thread about literacy mine has always been shocking I can remember my scores for the year 12 subjects I did .

General Maths : 32/50
Physics : 27/50
System Technology : 48/50 (yes it involved working with my hands)
and the last one English : 13/50

I look back on English now , I was left behind at year 10 trying to understand it and also I was a youngen kid . . . I finished year 12 when I was 17 , I wasn't mentally mature to grasp the English subject at all and I look at it now I could . . .

Without sidetracking too much:

a) Your comments about engineers knowing nothing about hands on are a sweeping generalization if ever there was one. I've got my welding tickets & can run a lathe enough to get myself out of trouble but hey those couple of letters after my name must really destroy those skills. I can sympathise with your comments RE most grads coming out & knowing nothing despite what you tell them but I've come across just as many tradies who are equally useless after 4 years on the job..

b) If you're going to get a degree I wouldn't recommend Mech Eng. As one myself I can safely say there is bugger all work around unless you want to design air con. There's a market at the moment for materials handling work in the mines but I expect that will die in time, there's not much as far as design for the manufacturing industry goes for the same reasons that the hands on jobs are disappearing. My goal was always motorsport/manufacturing and the best I've achieved is part time with the rest of my time spent designing transmission lines. Go for Civil for the most jobs, most flexibility and arguably the best pay. Yes you'll be doing something a bit different to what you're doing now but beats being stuck at a desk trying to design a system for getting farts out of toilet blocks..

[Benjamin Smith]

Flappist, I'm a just about to be second year sparky, I want to start my own electrical contracting business, is it as fun and enjoying as people say?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Benjamin Smith

Flappist, I'm a just about to be second year sparky, I want to start my own electrical contracting business, is it as fun and enjoying as people say?

That will depend on you.

[Benjamin Smith]

What sort of work do you do, when I do get my self up and running, I would be looking into doing big project work.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Oh man.....

I have lost count of the people who think they are worth their weight in gold for a school based on the fact they have a tally wacker between their legs.....

All jobs have their pros and cons. How good you go is almost totally dependant on you as a whole person not just while on the job. I would NEVER EVER say I'm better than someone else due to the job I do. My dad left school in year 7, can hardly read and write but is happily retired and always has a smile on his face. Worked hard, raised a family, got a few knocks in life (like we all do) and just got on with the job... no bloody excuses, no 'What if's' etc etc etc.

You teach because it's what you have a passion for doing. Forget about holidays, perks, hours. If you think we have it easy I assure you we don't. People who are in the job for their benefit alone will not last.

My younger brother is a sparky. In fact, he has his own electrical contracting business. What Flappist said is spot on, for both the work chalkies do, and what you as a person can get out of being an electrical contractor.

We (myself, brother and sister) have done very well due to the fact we saw our parents (un-educated, working class migrants) bust their behinds to do their best with the situation they have... Times change, ideals change but the fundamentals of survival remain the same....

I very much feel sorry for the Ford workers. And I very much know how they feel... was there several years ago myself. I pulled out of it, worked extra hard to compensate for my losses and moved along with life.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Spammy

As a Mechanical Engineer, comments like this make my blood boil. If you are as clever as you somehow seem to think you are, why don't you go do 4 years at university and then come back to your existing job and really show those brainiacs who is boss. Surely you would be unbeatable with your self proclaimed excellece and an Engineering Degree as well !!!

A degree ..... 4 yrs of Uni or 6 even, how about 8
Actually, you might be surprised to know that more than 50% of the fitters/sparkies at Holden achieved on average approx. 6 yrs of post trade schooling and walked out with a trade in their chosen fields, gained an average of 15yrs trade experience and also held a minimum of an advanced cert. in engineering or an ***. Diploma, not to mention all the other certificates/licenses to go with it eg. first aid, heights, fire, confined space etc etc etc.
Including time spent in your apprenticeship, this equates to an average of 10yrs schooling within a single profession.
And yes, alot of the times those brainiacs were shown who's boss. So in relation to some other posts, its pretty obvious we were worth the money.

With Fords trade agreement having many common tiers with GMs, (post trade education) im assuming that many of their maintenance workers have also shown those brainiacs who's boss many a time.

[CoupeKing]

If i was one of those 1200 affected, yeah i`d be peed off and concerned, but i`d also think i was kind of lucky being given '3 years notice' as appose to some people in the past that weren`t even give 3 days!

[Cheese3]

I must reiterate , I have never said a teachers job is easy . . . I only listed some perks that are attractive for my situation , mostly the male to female % ratio of teachers when hiring. . .

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes it is crap, the figure is more like 80 hours a week.

My wife is a prep teacher as in teaches 5 year olds.

This is a normal week:

Sunday; prepare weeks lessons and create all of the documentation and components, 4-6 hours.
Monday-Friday;
up at 5, leave at 7, prepare and look after kids until 9, start school.
Teach until first break.
While kids are on first break, watch kids and prepare next lesson.
Teach until second break. (lunch)
Try to scoff down a bit of food while on playground duty during lunch and then prepare afternoon lesson.
Ensure kids are picked up at 3pm and then start to prepare next day as well as feed all the crap into the computer for "one school" etc.
Get home some time between 5 and 6pm.
Mark work/homework and at various times do reports cards, naplan and all the other crap.

Saturday usually recover but at times do preparation.

Holidays:
Easter, clean up after exams and prepare for next term.
June, finish off semester and prepare for next semester.
September, same as easter.
December, yay year is over but in 3 weeks the whole thing starts again.

Of course it is just repeating last year......except if it is a different grade, the curriculum has changed, a new HOD or Boss wants to do it a different way or about a squillion other things.

I am an electrician by trade and used to work for a large corporation.
My week back then was:
9 day fortnight.
Turn up at start time
Have smoko .
Have lunch
Go home.
Do what I was told to do and if the job was not finished by knockoff then it did not get done until the next day.
Weekends were my time, stuff work.

I now run my own business and have a week off every couple of years if I am lucky.

Any employed tradie who thinks that professionals have it easy has NO IDEA AT ALL.

Great write up and what I bolded would be what I would miss from the trade , once you knock off you don't think of the work outside of the work place . . .

Originally Posted by Kometes

Without sidetracking too much:

a) Your comments about engineers knowing nothing about hands on are a sweeping generalization if ever there was one. I've got my welding tickets & can run a lathe enough to get myself out of trouble but hey those couple of letters after my name must really destroy those skills. I can sympathise with your comments RE most grads coming out & knowing nothing despite what you tell them but I've come across just as many tradies who are equally useless after 4 years on the job..

b) If you're going to get a degree I wouldn't recommend Mech Eng. As one myself I can safely say there is bugger all work around unless you want to design air con. There's a market at the moment for materials handling work in the mines but I expect that will die in time, there's not much as far as design for the manufacturing industry goes for the same reasons that the hands on jobs are disappearing. My goal was always motorsport/manufacturing and the best I've achieved is part time with the rest of my time spent designing transmission lines. Go for Civil for the most jobs, most flexibility and arguably the best pay. Yes you'll be doing something a bit different to what you're doing now but beats being stuck at a desk trying to design a system for getting farts out of toilet blocks..

I used the word "majority" in my first post and right now Im impressed with what you have listed , I don't no one engineer that have welding or basic machining skills till now. I bet when you are discussing a job with a tradesman you have a great rapport with them as they know you understand what they are talking about ?

I wouldn't say grads no nothing , they are just green and believe what they learnt at uni is the only way to achieve the result where a tradesman could of been doing the job for 25+ years he might have a few tricks up his sleeves that a professor doesn't know . . . An no argument from me with useless Tradies after their 4 years are up . . .

Personally I ain't to fussed about my Job as Im still young and not tired down , I feel sorry for the guys I work with that have a young family and a decent mortgage to pay . . . Geelong will be a ghost town for jobs IMO . . .

With me , like I said I would love to try something totally different to my current field and nothing is set in concrete but I have looked into Primary Teaching the hardest and to be honest sounds like one I would enjoy as well as challenging myself . . . If worst comes to worst for me , I would just join the defence force as I know they scream for trades but I ain't "Pro ADF" and it would be hard to enjoy it as my views differ from theirs . . . Though at the end of the day , as long as you can trust the people your with I can leave the personal opinions/views at the door .

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

If i was one of those 1200 affected, yeah i`d be peed off and concerned, but i`d also think i was kind of lucky being given '3 years notice' as appose to some people in the past that weren`t even give 3 days!

The good ones will jump early as they will be quick to snap up any good jobs in other industries.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by csv8

Yesterday’s announcement that Ford will close its manufacturing operations in Geelong and Broadmeadows by 2016 at the cost of 1,200 jobs raises questions of what the workers' future employment options are.

But as these workers consider their futures, we need to understand that nearly half of Australian adults are considered functionally illiterate. And manufacturing workers in Victoria, which includes those in the firing line at Ford, were found to have even lower literacy skills, with 54% scoring at the lowest levels.

The data are alarming and there are now serious concerns about these levels of literacy and the impact they have on the employment, health and education opportunities for workers.

Given the strong links between increasing literacy and better employment opportunities, economic independence and social conditions including health and education, this is a serious issue not only for manufacturing workers, but for the rest of the Australian community.
Advertisement
What is functional illiteracy?

Functional literacy is broadly defined as having the literacy skills for everyday living. This includes reading and writing lists, interpreting medicine labels, understanding road signs, using maps, navigating the internet, using instruction manuals and other procedural texts that people encounter in their daily lives.

While complete illiteracy refers to a total inability to read or write, functional illiteracy is much more difficult to see, as functionally illiterate adults can generally read and write to a limited degree.

UNESCO defines functional illiteracy as being unable to productively engage with society due to poor reading and writing skills.

Data from a recent Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) study, as part of the Programme for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies (PIAAC), assessing adult literacy and numeracy skills shows that about 44% of Australians aged 15 – 74 had literacy skills at levels that are considered to be functionally illiterate. Older Australians have lower literacy rates than younger Australians, with 65% scoring at the lowest literacy levels.
http://brisbanetimes.drive.com.au/mo...524-2k4u1.html

My Comment, if this is true, then Australia's education system has a lot to answer for...What has all the money on education , been spent on ??????

I honestly do not know where to start.............

What is with the misconception auto workers are mindless numbskulls. I have completed my VCE, I have completed my Rigging tickets and the complicated maths that comes with it these days. I am on a modest $26 an hour, not 50, not 70 or some other unworldly figure someone pulls from their backend. I took a job at Ford because I had a passion for it, if I knew I was going to be stereotyped for it 10 years later I would have ran for the hills. Reading that article makes me feel like I have a mental handicap. I cannot believe in this day and age a footballer is described as an animal and there is outrage, but you can describe a whole sector of the australian workforce as half wits and it is business as usual. Unbelievable.............

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

The good ones will jump early as they will be quick to snap up any good jobs in other industries.

Not if the company refuses to pay out their entitlements / redundacy payments prior to 'closure'.
Remember Ford has a business to run.
When Holden closed 3/4 of its operations in 09, the ones to move on first were the dead wood say to speak. They tried to keep their 'value added workers' till the end.

[Cheese3]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

The good ones will jump early as they will be quick to snap up any good jobs in other industries.

Depends on their age and situation , if closer to retirement you would see the 3 years out . . . If you have a young family and roughly early 40's you would jump if you can get similar pay and you know in the new job your employment will be longer than the current ford 3 years . . .

Originally Posted by fte50

Not if the company refuses to pay out their entitlements / redundacy payments prior to 'closure'.
Remember Ford has a business to run.

Also depends on your years of service , if you only been there a short time you would take the lost on the chin to gain a job with similar pay. But if you have been employed for 25 years and your 43years of age with a young family it would be harder to throw that away to gain a better job

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I honestly do not know where to start.............

What is with the misconception auto workers are mindless numbskulls. I have completed my VCE, I have completed my Rigging tickets and the complicated maths that comes with it these days. I am on a modest $26 an hour, not 50, not 70 or some other unworldly figure someone pulls from their backend. I took a job at Ford because I had a passion for it, if I knew I was going to be stereotyped for it 10 years later I would have ran for the hills. Reading that article makes me feel like I have a mental handicap. I cannot believe in this day and age a footballer is described as an animal and there is outrage, but you can describe a whole sector of the australian workforce as half wits and it is business as usual. Unbelievable.............

$26/h, are you considered "unskilled" in your job title?

Our auto elecs are on that much and they do 2/10 F all.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

$26/h, are you considered "unskilled" in your job title?

Our auto elecs are on that much and they do 2/10 F all.

I most likely would be, the only benefit I receive is that by being knowledgeable with my job has allowed me to rise to better positions within the factory.

[Gobes32]

One of my good mates is a senior tech with the local BMW dealer. He is on $24 an hour so I consider myself lucky.........

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

One of my good mates is a senior tech with the local BMW dealer. He is on $24 an hour so I consider myself lucky.........

Dealership motor mechanics are on pretty much nothing, but they don't tend to be unionised either which might be a reason why.

The mechanics at the Honda dealership I used to work with were on between $17.50-$20 an hour, $25/h was only likely as the workshop manager.

The only problem with more money is much more responsibility.

[fte50]

In reality alot of wages outside of 'big industry' is now being driven down due to competition of 'skilled foreign workers' (who majority of) will never cut the muscle.

In the meantime cost of living goes up and the politicians grant themselves a pay increase - now thats one job id like to see a 457 import occupy.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Ben...If you could read its actually stated in the original post!

JP

I didn't read the OP completely. Maybe I am illiterate?

Illiterate means "Unable to read or write"
Functionally illiterate must mean you cannot read or write very well, but you can get by. They are saying that almost 1 in 2 people are functionally illiterate.
I want to know if there is some sort of line you have to cross from becoming functionally illiterate to literate.

Out of all the people I know I would only consider 1 of them to be "functionally illiterate" due to English being their second language.
I don't think I know any adults that I would consider to be illiterate.

Do you just need a university degree or something like that to cross from being functionally illiterate to literate?

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Do you just need a university degree or something like that to cross from being functionally illiterate to literate?

Depends, you can go to uni , get a job and be functionally literate,
but then there is the functionally illiterate , such as those who study 'Arts' for the remainder of their life and do part time work in a 2nd hand clothing store but dont comprehend the term 'full time job'.

[TMC]

I think society puts too much emphasis on your value as a person being based on what you do for a living. So if you do menial tasks you're a failure, but if your an engineer with a 6 figure salary you're a success. Thankfully that is not the case in reality. I'm sure there are many highly educated failures out there. Your value as a fellow human being is not based on what pay packet you get.

[mash again]

anyone read rich dad, poor dad. Interesting read which addresses lots of these questions.

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes it is crap, the figure is more like 80 hours a week.

My wife is a prep teacher as in teaches 5 year olds.

This is a normal week:

Sunday; prepare weeks lessons and create all of the documentation and components, 4-6 hours.
Monday-Friday;
up at 5, leave at 7, prepare and look after kids until 9, start school.
Teach until first break.
While kids are on first break, watch kids and prepare next lesson.
Teach until second break. (lunch)
Try to scoff down a bit of food while on playground duty during lunch and then prepare afternoon lesson.
Ensure kids are picked up at 3pm and then start to prepare next day as well as feed all the crap into the computer for "one school" etc.
Get home some time between 5 and 6pm.
Mark work/homework and at various times do reports cards, naplan and all the other crap.

Saturday usually recover but at times do preparation.

Holidays:
Easter, clean up after exams and prepare for next term.
June, finish off semester and prepare for next semester.
September, same as easter.
December, yay year is over but in 3 weeks the whole thing starts again.

Of course it is just repeating last year......except if it is a different grade, the curriculum has changed, a new HOD or Boss wants to do it a different way or about a squillion other things.

I can vouch for all said above
teachers spend around 1/2 their holiday time working, whether that's at school or at home.
most stay in the profession because they care about kids and want the best education for them, they don't do it for the mostly poor pay they receive.

Think about it, a decent education is the most important thing, bar none.
Education leads to better health, less crime etc etc

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by mash again

anyone read rich dad, poor dad. Interesting read which addresses lots of these questions.

In a very simplistic and often incorrect way, many critics and financial advisers consider his advice to be dangerous.
I note the Author, Robert Kiyosaki, filed for corporate bankruptcy last year, having only made it big with the sale of this book, no previous wealth existed?

as with anything always seek an equal and opposite view before making a decision!

JP

[GQ_Smooth]

Does anyone in Australia consider themselves overpaid?

With what I've seen and read by both the Liberal party and the majority of Australian unions, I don't believe either of them have any idea of how to genuinely keep manufacturing viable in Australia.

[Cheese3]

Originally Posted by GQ_Smooth

Does anyone in Australia consider themselves overpaid?

With what I've seen and read by both the Liberal party and the majority of Australian unions, I don't believe either of them have any idea of how to genuinely keep manufacturing viable in Australia.

1) Stop selling gas to China cheaply
2) Tell the auto industry to make gas car's and keep improving them
3) Announce Australia wide that you are fixing the gas prices at 30cents a litre for the next 10 years and will revue it when the time is up for another 10 years
4) Announce Australia wide that if you buy a gas car you get a rebate

Not only will Australia make more money per a litre on gas. Families could saving $5000 + a year on fuel . . . An that would make anyone jump from petrol to gas . . . Families can then put the savings into other areas of cost of living which would reduce companies giving out % pay rises each year too

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I honestly do not know where to start.............

What is with the misconception auto workers are mindless numbskulls. I have completed my VCE, I have completed my Rigging tickets and the complicated maths that comes with it these days. I am on a modest $26 an hour, not 50, not 70 or some other unworldly figure someone pulls from their backend. I took a job at Ford because I had a passion for it, if I knew I was going to be stereotyped for it 10 years later I would have ran for the hills. Reading that article makes me feel like I have a mental handicap. I cannot believe in this day and age a footballer is described as an animal and there is outrage, but you can describe a whole sector of the australian workforce as half wits and it is business as usual. Unbelievable.............

This^^^

I have completed VCE and a year of mechanical engineering at TAFE. I don't know why they assume auto workers are illiterate, I don't know any who are. Maybe a few of the real old immigrants who struggle with english may have a few issues but there aren't many of them left these days.

Its probably these older immigrants that aren't quite at retirement age yet that will be hit the hardest though, or anyone over 50 who will really struggle to find work. I'm lucky i'm only 32.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by fte50

A degree ..... 4 yrs of Uni or 6 even, how about 8
Actually, you might be surprised to know that more than 50% of the fitters/sparkies at Holden achieved on average approx. 6 yrs of post trade schooling and walked out with a trade in their chosen fields, gained an average of 15yrs trade experience and also held a minimum of an advanced cert. in engineering or an ***. Diploma, not to mention all the other certificates/licenses to go with it eg. first aid, heights, fire, confined space etc etc etc.
Including time spent in your apprenticeship, this equates to an average of 10yrs schooling within a single profession.
And yes, alot of the times those brainiacs were shown who's boss. So in relation to some other posts, its pretty obvious we were worth the money.

With Fords trade agreement having many common tiers with GMs, (post trade education) im assuming that many of their maintenance workers have also shown those brainiacs who's boss many a time.

Continuing education and new skills is nothing new or unique. I have to do a certain number of relevant continuing education hours/points every year, even after 25 years in the industry.

The point you seem to be missing is the higher the hurdle the fewer the people who can clear it and therefore the fewer who earn the bigger bucks.

Example:just about everyone can drive - how many people can win a Formula 1 Championship?

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Spammy

Agreed but they can't be paid more than a school teacher at the same time, otherwise the product they are manufacturing will be too expensive to produce and cheaper imports will end up costing them their jobs.

Why not ?
Remember the core difference here - a school teacher provides a service whilst a manufacturer makes items to sell for profit, who's workers most certainly be entitled to a relative share of the profit pie.

Now im not even implying the worth of 1 vs the other, but comparing teachers vs manufacturers is ludicrous.

Originally Posted by Spammy

Continuing education and new skills is nothing new or unique. I have to do a certain number of relevant continuing education hours/points every year, even after 25 years in the industry. The point you seem to be missing is the higher the hurdle the fewer the people who can clear it and therefore the fewer who earn the bigger bucks..

I was highlighting a point against your reply to Cheese, and the tone in which you imply engineers know more than tradies purely coz they hold a degree.


Finally No, ongoing education / up skilling is nothing new nor unique, but neither is an engineer who 'often' looks down upon a tradesman and tries to discredit /dismiss real world knowledge/experience with a theory purely coz they hold degree '.

[ryeman]

The free GOAUTO emag has got a lot of automotive trade ads for employment positions FWIW.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by fte50

Why not ?

I was highlighting a point against your reply to Cheese, and the tone in which you imply engineers know more than tradies purely coz they hold a degree.


'.

If a doctor is clumsy at sticking on band-aids does he know more or less than the first aid lady at school who is very good at sticking on band-aids?