No terrorists in Australia, says Habib

[XR Martin]

Interesting doco on Islamic extremism.

http://obsessionthemovie.com/12min.htm

[crossingover]

Guys this country breeds them islamic extremists,And another thing really they shouldnt be classified as muslims because muslim people are quite different.I my self am turkish and an australian born muslim,No my mums not covered in a scarf or my sister and yes they wear makeup and hit the beach and pool and wear a costume.Muslim people are generally turkish and some lebanese.But these wackos who fully covers their wives and the men who wear those long white dresses should be stopped as they are a cult.They brain wash their peirs when their most vunerable and blame everything that happens to them on the westeners.The quran does not state you must cover up for women it only says for women to coverup when they pray as they bend down so their hair dosnt intefier in their praying basically its all crap there bloody extremists.I could go on and on as i live in broadmeadows melbourne and in the last ten years they have multiplied like rabbits,Most of them dont allow wifes to work and husbands are on the dole but they all own their own houses and drive new model cars.They dont borrow money from banks as they say interest is a sin so they now have formed their own islamic finance and mecca finance.These people are called islamic extremists not muslim.I my self chose not to socialise with these people as i believe i am australian and live the australian lifestyle and love the opprtunities this country has given to my self and family,And i believe if these maggots dont like the australian way and constantly critisize the lifestyle here and cant fit in well! they should go back to their country and live or practise as they wish.Im not racist and totally support multicultirism,But these people came here for a better life so they say but all of a sudden they now say this is how we are and australia should stop attacking so as we can live in peace.What a load of crap maybe if they got a job allowed their partners to work and contributed to the system aliitle rather than sucking centrelink drie of money,Also dressed in a civilised manner the nuts would be acceptible in society.Guys all i can say this problem is on the rise and amplifying over time and there will be alot of problems in the near future with extremists oh and also they do not suicide bomb to feed their families thats crap! They are brainwashed and they label themselves as jihad they assume they are gods footsoilders and by dying in the way of islam they automatically go to heaven.Thats really disturbing and ********ked up.There outright murderers.

[MITCHAY]

Reminds me when one of Saddam's lead men said the US aren't in Iraq. He looks like a joke than ever now :

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by crossingover

Guys this country breeds them islamic extremists,And another thing really they shouldnt be classified as muslims because muslim people are quite different.I my self am turkish and an australian born muslim,No my mums not covered in a scarf or my sister and yes they wear makeup and hit the beach and pool and wear a costume.Muslim people are generally turkish and some lebanese.But these wackos who fully covers their wives and the men who wear those long white dresses should be stopped as they are a cult.They brain wash their peirs when their most vunerable and blame everything that happens to them on the westeners.The quran does not state you must cover up for women it only says for women to coverup when they pray as they bend down so their hair dosnt intefier in their praying basically its all crap there bloody extremists.I could go on and on as i live in broadmeadows melbourne and in the last ten years they have multiplied like rabbits,Most of them dont allow wifes to work and husbands are on the dole but they all own their own houses and drive new model cars.They dont borrow money from banks as they say interest is a sin so they now have formed their own islamic finance and mecca finance.These people are called islamic extremists not muslim.I my self chose not to socialise with these people as i believe i am australian and live the australian lifestyle and love the opprtunities this country has given to my self and family,And i believe if these maggots dont like the australian way and constantly critisize the lifestyle here and cant fit in well! they should go back to their country and live or practise as they wish.Im not racist and totally support multicultirism,But these people came here for a better life so they say but all of a sudden they now say this is how we are and australia should stop attacking so as we can live in peace.What a load of crap maybe if they got a job allowed their partners to work and contributed to the system aliitle rather than sucking centrelink drie of money,Also dressed in a civilised manner the nuts would be acceptible in society.Guys all i can say this problem is on the rise and amplifying over time and there will be alot of problems in the near future with extremists oh and also they do not suicide bomb to feed their families thats crap! They are brainwashed and they label themselves as jihad they assume they are gods footsoilders and by dying in the way of islam they automatically go to heaven.Thats really disturbing and ********ked up.There outright murderers.

A lot of them are from places like Indonesia, Bangledesh and Pakistan arent they? There are plenty in my townhouses that fit your description of not working etc. Guy next door to my told me he was a University lecturer, but my wife (who does not work as I wont allow her to work in a bank when shes pregnant in case she gets a gun pulled on her which has happened a couple of times) says he is home all day. he has bred 4 children in his rented 3 bedroom townhouse.
I stopped being secretary of the owners corporation because he threatened me when I told him he couldnt put his airconditioners on the balconies and had to mount them around the back, out of sight like everyone else. I resigned because he was allowed to keep them.

[pb02]

Originally Posted by flappist

I love the way the media hype up stories. A few years ago there was a local story of a drug raid where no drugs were found but a "high powered rifle and 5,000 rounds of ammo" were seized.
Actually a rusty old slug gun and an old box of slugs was found in a box in a shed. The rifle did not work and had been there for years (before registration) and had belonged to a deceased family member.
The raid was based on information received that turned out to be vexatious.

But you know DRUGS and GUNS sell newspapers.........

I love switching from one news station to the next to see how the media screw everything up. Perfect example was one recent shark victim. The story went from a 6 foot shark to a 6 metre shark in minutes.... I'm waiting to see the recovery story of one mans traumatic ordeal with a 453 metre shark with a laser turret on his fin that had stalked him and his family for 6 months prior to the attack.

Don't always trust what you hear from the media. :

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by pb02

I'm waiting to see the recovery story of one mans traumatic ordeal with a 453 metre shark with a laser turret on his fin that had stalked him and his family for 6 months prior to the attack.

Don't always trust what you hear from the media. :

That was really a Russian nuclear sub.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by crossingover

Guys this country breeds them islamic extremists,And another thing really they shouldnt be classified as muslims because muslim people are quite different.I my self am turkish and an australian born muslim,No my mums not covered in a scarf or my sister and yes they wear makeup and hit the beach and pool and wear a costume.Muslim people are generally turkish and some lebanese.But these wackos who fully covers their wives and the men who wear those long white dresses should be stopped as they are a cult.They brain wash their peirs when their most vunerable and blame everything that happens to them on the westeners.The quran does not state you must cover up for women it only says for women to coverup when they pray as they bend down so their hair dosnt intefier in their praying basically its all crap there bloody extremists.I could go on and on as i live in broadmeadows melbourne and in the last ten years they have multiplied like rabbits,Most of them dont allow wifes to work and husbands are on the dole but they all own their own houses and drive new model cars.They dont borrow money from banks as they say interest is a sin so they now have formed their own islamic finance and mecca finance.These people are called islamic extremists not muslim.I my self chose not to socialise with these people as i believe i am australian and live the australian lifestyle and love the opprtunities this country has given to my self and family,And i believe if these maggots dont like the australian way and constantly critisize the lifestyle here and cant fit in well! they should go back to their country and live or practise as they wish.Im not racist and totally support multicultirism,But these people came here for a better life so they say but all of a sudden they now say this is how we are and australia should stop attacking so as we can live in peace.What a load of crap maybe if they got a job allowed their partners to work and contributed to the system aliitle rather than sucking centrelink drie of money,Also dressed in a civilised manner the nuts would be acceptible in society.Guys all i can say this problem is on the rise and amplifying over time and there will be alot of problems in the near future with extremists oh and also they do not suicide bomb to feed their families thats crap! They are brainwashed and they label themselves as jihad they assume they are gods footsoilders and by dying in the way of islam they automatically go to heaven.Thats really disturbing and ********ked up.There outright murderers.

You would have to be the most ill informed Muslim I've ever heard of. I suggest you educate yourself on any matter before you jump to conclusions.

Yes, there may be people that wish to cause harm on others, known to people as Muslim extremists. I wouldn't regard such people as having proper or any understanding of the Muslim faith.
These are the people you should target, if you know who they are. But to simply say those that a dressed in a particular way ARE the extremists is ignorant.

I would like to correct you on all your other misconceptions, however, that is off topic.

[GXL078]

Anything is open to intepretation.

[GK]

When you have one segment of Islam Sunni (spelling?) regularly blowing another Shiite (spelling?) up and vise versa, when both claim to be faithfully serving allah, how do you resolve that politically?

As for crossingover's comments about the muslim dress standards etc, most Turkish people are moderate muslims and IIRC Turkey is the only Muslim secular country that I know of. I could be wrong of course. Feel free to mention others if they exist.

His comments about others being extremists is a matter of context, he's moderate, clearly, and they are off the scale (in his reckoning) in comparison.

GK

[GK]

When you have one segment of Islam Sunni (spelling?) regularly blowing another Shiite (spelling?) up and vise versa, when both claim to be faithfully serving allah, how do you resolve that politically?

As for crossingover's comments about the muslim dress standards etc, most Turkish people are moderate muslims and IIRC Turkey is the only Muslim secular country that I know of. I could be wrong of course. Feel free to mention others if they exist.

His comments about others being extremists is a matter of context, he's moderate, clearly, and they are off the scale (in his reckoning) in comparison.

GK

[BPXR6T]

How is he going to repeal federal terror laws at state level?

[gtfpv]

the whole topic stinks to the brim
i'm going to give my 2c worth here because it's a free country, on 2nd thoughts . i'll leave it there . sadition is a terrible thing.

[robs_ls1]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

sedition laws are a terrible thing

I corrected your post for you...

[jimmy_c]

Who knows what to think anymore its getting beyond a joke.

One thing that springs to mind is:


Order out of chaos

[PHATXR8]

So what was Habib doing in Afghanistan in the first place?
What was Hicks doing in Pakistan, and why are there pitures of him with a rocket launcher on his shoulder?

Both look pretty dodgy to me....

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by GK

When you have one segment of Islam Sunni (spelling?) regularly blowing another Shiite (spelling?) up and vise versa, when both claim to be faithfully serving allah, how do you resolve that politically?

Is there any difference to one Christian Protestant bombing a market full of Christian Catholic's in Ireland and vice-versa? ANY difference at all?

No matter where you go there have always been religious divides, even here in Australia, from the very start. You have to take this situation with total historical context, not just pick and choose the tiny tidbit's of history that appear to support your argument.



Lumpy

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by PHATXR8

So what was Habib doing in Afghanistan in the first place?
What was Hicks doing in Pakistan, and why are there pitures of him with a rocket launcher on his shoulder?

Both look pretty dodgy to me....

Have you glanced past the first page of the Telegraph on your way to the Fashion section?


You do know how and where he was arrested don't you?

Arrested with NO weapon at a TAXI RANK in Kabul trying to get to the AIRPORT with tickets to LEAVE Afghanistan.

He completed BASIC TRAINING with a Islamist group that was NOT illegal at the time.

NO ONE has EVER given PROOF he has EVER MET let alone talked to Osama Bin Laden.

Even the US ARMY has admitted he was NEVER in a position (region) to fire a single shot at 'Coalition Forces.

The original charges against him were DISMISSED BY THE US SUPREME COURT.

Even John Howard has said that he NEVER BROKE THE LAW and could ONLY be charged IF they introduced RETROSPECTIVE laws.

The photo of him with an RPG on his shoulder was taken IN BOSNIA-HERZOGOVINA NOT in Afghanistan where he was fighting WITH THE UN security forces.



So basically, he's never committed a crime in any country and was arrested while attempting to flee a warzone and has been held without charge, in solitary confinement for 5 years the last two years have seen him chained to a floor with only exposure to sunlight for 1 hour a day practically continually.


Do you believe there is a case? That is fair, just and equitable treatment?

There isn't a case yet, because there's nothing he can be charged with. IF there was, he would have been charged by now, in fact, they have to bring in NEW LAWS to even have a hope of convicting him. He's being tried in a stacked Military court. For christ sake, they're even going to allow circumstantial and hearsay as evidence. These are NOT admisable in most civilised courts on earth and this is a basic tenement of Justice.

It's not fair or equitable treatment because by declaring him an 'Illegal Combatant' they also stated straight up he has NO human rights because he doesn't come under the Geneva Convention.



Lumpy

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i'll leave it there . sadition is a terrible thing.

As is sedition

Lumpen you can also attribute a lot of the delays to the US supreme court review of the military tribunal which had been proposed to try hicks and the other illegal combatants retained in guantanamo. It was this process that was overturned by the supreme court, i dont think hicks himself ever had his day in front of them.

Whilst i agree that he's been wronged, i have little sympathy for him. A militant group is a militant group, regardless of professed prophet and regardless of whether said group is on uncle sam's blacklist.

[MITCHAY]

Good post Lumpen. I find it unfair that they are trying to work the law to charge someone under laws which didn't exist when he was alleged to have committed offences in breach of them.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Good post Lumpen. I find it unfair that they are trying to work the law to charge someone under laws which didn't exist when he was alleged to have committed offences in breach of them.

The offence of "Material support for terrorism" was introduced by the US congress in 1996 in response to oklahoma, the first WTC attack etc. Whilst being tinkered with over the years (like most laws in most countries do)... they have been the basis for legal prosecution in this field even since.

I therefore fail to see where the argument arises that he is only being tried as a result of retrospective application of legislation??

[MITCHAY]

Well if they have him for that, why hasn't he been trialled, found guilty/innocent, served his sentence and/or set free?

5yrs is a joke don't you think? Do you reckon that they will include those 5 years as time served on his sentence, if and when he is trialled and found guilty?

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Well if they have him for that, why hasn't he been trialled, found guilty/innocent, served his sentence and/or set free?

5yrs is a joke don't you think? Do you reckon that they will include those 5 years as time served on his sentence, if and when he is trialled and found guilty?

He has not been tried because the USA has not actually decided which charges they intend on laying. Well... sorry... charges were laid in 04, but the commission that laid them was scrapped adn the charges were void...

The trial was due to occur in 05 iirc ... but the constitutional validity of the military trial was tested by the supreme court... and found to be unconstitutional.

Then there was the application for british citizenship...

Now they have to convene an authority to approve the charges they intend on laying...

So no, i certainly dont condone the approach taken by the US. But it's complicated and not as simple as the hicks supporters would have you believe. They're not just keeping him there for the fun of it, they have legal processes to follow and they're making a lot of it up as they go. Rejigging a legal system is not something that happens overnight.

And unofrtunately for hicks, you lose the protection of australian law when you go to the middle east to train with armed forces.

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

The offence of "Material support for terrorism" was introduced by the US congress in 1996 in response to oklahoma, the first WTC attack etc. Whilst being tinkered with over the years (like most laws in most countries do)... they have been the basis for legal prosecution in this field even since.

I therefore fail to see where the argument arises that he is only being tried as a result of retrospective application of legislation??

But at the time, Lashkar-e-Toiba was no more than a Religious Militia (as all the Muhajadeen (sp?)) were at that time.

He was arrested in late 2001. LeT was made illegal in 2003, how is that not retrospective?

It would be no different to arresting a member of a US Civilian Militia while he was in Australia and holding him with charge.



Lumpy

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

And unofrtunately for hicks, you lose the protection of australian law when you go to the middle east to train with armed forces.

Ironically, one of the most celebrated American writers of the 20th Century would be locked up and labelled as a terrorist under these same provisions.

Would the bell have tolled for him I wonder?



Lumpy

[gtfpv]

WELL HE WAS TRAINING WITH A TERRORIST ORGANISATION . any religion that gives glory to killing other people/or yourself can go and get . why would GOD create people to be killed by other people .surely hes capable of that himself!!and 2ndly if he wanted them dead , then why create them in the 1st place . people really are fooking stupid aren't they ????? anyhow back on topic . there were better places to go for holidays , the gold coast for example, no beheadings , no nuns,and a shooters gallary.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Lumpen Proletariat

The photo of him with an RPG on his shoulder was taken IN BOSNIA-HERZOGOVINA NOT in Afghanistan where he was fighting WITH THE UN security forces.





Lumpy

Lumpy , where do you get "fighting with the UN security forces"
Is this an impression you have or can you back it up with evidence?
cheers
Bill.

[XR Martin]

He certainly wasnt fighting for/with the UN (when does the UN ever fight anyway? : )
He was fighting for the 'Kosovo Liberation Army'.

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by Bill M

Lumpy , where do you get "fighting with the UN security forces"
Is this an impression you have or can you back it up with evidence?
cheers
Bill.

Clarified I meant that fighting for the KLA he was fighting, roughly, on the same side as NATO (not UN...sorry). That is, fighting against the Serbian and Yugoslavian invasion forces. In fact the NATO appointed Kosovo Protection Corps was formed from members of the KLA...


Lumpy

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

WELL HE WAS TRAINING WITH A TERRORIST ORGANISATION.

NO. He was was training with a militia. One that was part of a larger militant underground freedom movement that was financed, sponsored, trained and equipped primarily by the United States and United Kingdom Governments in their war against the USSR.

It was NOT an official terrorist organisation until two years after he was arrested.


Lumpy

[XR Martin]

The US and UK did not finance and equip the Taliban. After the Russian withdrawal in 1989 they ceased funding to the area. Taliban took power in 1996.
The Afghan commander who organised the fight agaisnt the Russians and later the Taliban was actually killed by Al Qaeda.

You are really over simplifying a very complicated conflict.