Tragic death of 4 year old in NSW

[AUIIIXR8]

The dogs were cagesd as well most of the time. You can't permanently cage an animal like that. What happened to the girl is horrific but for a child of that age to be out at 7pm several doors away and climbing fences the parents have no one to blame but themselves.
On the news a bloke said that any uncertain dogs must be restrained or caged. That would point to ALL dogs! The anaimals certainly aren't at fault. I'm not a fan of anyone breeding killer dogs but it's the way some live outback. Big wake up call to some parents out there for sure.

[BJ]

Well has this stirred up a hornets nest. I use to breed English Fox Hound's both for show and hunting ( both fox and deer ). At any given time i would have well over 15 to 20 dogs in the enclosure, i was a registered breeder with KKC and by law, now this was in the early 80s i had to have them in a 30 meter by 40 meter cage divided into separate area's for the dog's and *****'s. The point i am trying to make is that it is up to the owner not the general public to look out for the potential danger and make sure that you know who and what is going on in and around your back yard. Yes it was sad about the loss of such a young life but i think in this case the parent have more to answer for than the owner of the dog. We can all sit here and make assumptions over what happened but let's all just think of our own littel one and hope it never happens to any of us. Bj

[xceler8shun]

Where were the parents to have a child out at 7.30pm wandering around? There has been speculation that the parents weren't even at home at the time and the child was left alone. Will wait to see what comes of this in the media.

The owner enclosed the dogs in a double fenced run, how the child managed to get in the run, makes me wonder.

[punkin]

the child had climbed through 4 fences to get to the yard with the dogs - yes it is a shame the child died but it was in a place it shouldn't have been, in a secure yard (from the pictures at least 6 foot fences in the yard where the dogs were) with dogs which are hunting dogs.

I was mauled by a dog as a child, I was in the wrong place, I was old enough to know better (I was 5) yet I disobeyed my father and went into the yard, once the bite (on my face - I nearly lost an eye - scaring went away in my early 20s), had been dealt with by the hospital, released home I got a belting for disobeying him. Did I ever go into somewhere where I'd been told never to go again - no.

[MO]

BJ..I'm familiar with ANKC,SACA,NACA,VCA..etc but who is KKC?

[hanky]

A real tragedy!
There are laws in place concerning dog enclosures however these are rarely
policed properly.I believe in NSW that owners of restricted breeds are required to keep their dogs in an enclosure which not only keeps them in but also keeps others out,meaning the enclosure must be locked. I have a staffy at home which a council ranger insisted was a pitt bull, luckily I had a rego/birth certificate from RSPCA stating he's a staffy cross, so the ranger made me put clear perspex sheets over the yard gates to prevent someone sticking their hands in. Our dog has been very loyal and loves playing with our kids but these dogs can be territorial and for this reason no children go near him unsupervised.
Even though the dogs who killed the little girl may not be a restricted breed
by law the owner should have known they were aggressive and kept them
in a more secure enclosure. I won't comment on the little girl being out on her
own as the parents must be suffering greatly.

[Jeld-Wen Falcon]

Its a tragedy, no doubt. But the parents are to blame mostly, they were aware of those dogs up the street and should have kept an eye on there child. Its one of many things that COULD have happened, the child COULD have been hit by a car, the child COULD have been kidnapped, the child COULD have fallen into a lake, theres so many variables involved and blaming the dogs totally isnt fair.

The owners of the dogs have to take alot of the blame aswell, because those dogs should have been adequately restrained especially considering how lethal they are. The dogs were made for killing.

The question is why was the child allowed to wander the streets? And why were the dogs inadequately restrained?

[Boss 330]

A dogs nature is a direct result of their upbringing, I know people with pit bulls that are the most placid, friendly dogs youd ever see. it is unfair to label an entire breed as savage. If a person attacks another person, do we suddenly say that all people of that race, religion or whatever are savage??? I think not.

Dont get me wrong, if a dog gets out and mauls someone on the street it should be destroyed. BUT the child was in the dogs yard. The parents should accept some responsibilty, not just blame the old "dangerous dog" thing.

[xceler8shun]

Originally Posted by hanky

A real tragedy!
There are laws in place concerning dog enclosures however these are rarely
policed properly.I believe in NSW that owners of restricted breeds are required to keep their dogs in an enclosure which not only keeps them in but also keeps others out,meaning the enclosure must be locked. I have a staffy at home which a council ranger insisted was a pitt bull, luckily I had a rego/birth certificate from RSPCA stating he's a staffy cross, so the ranger made me put clear perspex sheets over the yard gates to prevent someone sticking their hands in. Our dog has been very loyal and loves playing with our kids but these dogs can be territorial and for this reason no children go near him unsupervised.
Even though the dogs who killed the little girl may not be a restricted breed
by law the owner should have known they were aggressive and kept them
in a more secure enclosure. I won't comment on the little girl being out on her
own as the parents must be suffering greatly.

In NSW, Restricted breeds must be kept in childproof enclosures, it is only in there that they dont have to have a muzzle on. However, nowhere in the legislation does it say that children, nor anyone else cannot enter the enclosure.

Thats how crazy the legislation is.

Your registration papers from the RSPCA actually wont protect your dog from being declared a Restricted breed by the council.

If the Council is of the opinion that it is Restricted and give you a "Notice of Intention to Declare a Dog Restricted or Dangerous" , and you cannot provide a Registration Certificate from DogsNSW (formally the RNSWCC) saying it is a purebreed eg Staffordshire Bull Terrier or American Staffordshire Terrier and have the relevant microchip and registration numbers with it.

You will have to obtain either an Identification Assessment or a Temperment Test or both.

If it fails the ID Assessment, it is a Restricted Breed, if it passes as a Restricted Breed Crossbred, it will need to have a Temp Assessment. If it passes that, you'll be fine.

If it failes the Temp Assessment, it is declared a Restricted Breed, and you'll have to comply with the requirements of owning a Restricted Breed.

Originally Posted by Jeld-Wen Falcon

The question is why was the child allowed to wander the streets? And why were the dogs inadequately restrained?

The child was roaming the streets through the fault of inadequate supervision from the parents and neglect.

The dogs were behind a multiple fence enclosure, some were even retrained in that enclosure. The owner actually took measures more that what was legally required of him to house the dogs.

[39ClevoUte]

But still, obviously, not child proof.

[GCFordChic]

'Child-proof'
- the special locking device put on the cupboard where cleaning chemicals are kept under the sink
- the caps of medicine bottles

Children have worked out how to open both these 'child-proof' things in different circumstances in the past. Have we blamed the chemicals for being deadly if ingested? Have we blamed medication for being harmful if overdosed on or taken by a child?

NO. Inadequate supervision of children in these circumstances is seen to be more of a contributing factor than the danger that has been locked away.

Even 'child-proof' doesnt mean in certain circumstances (ie. an extended period of time left unsupervised) that a child wont work out a way to beat the system and harm themselves.

[xceler8shun]

Originally Posted by 54Ghia

But still, obviously, not child proof.

I would dare say alot of backyards in the country are not childproof that contain any type / breed of dog, which is just as much a danger to children as that which occured in Warren.

I can walk 500m down my street and be confronted by a house that has 2 dogs, with no fences, another with 3 dogs and a 3 foot fence and continue further and be confronted by quite a few more with very poor fencing easily accessible by children which contain dogs.

If you have a dog, where is it now? In the backyard roaming around minding its own business? Not very childproof is it?

[BJ]

Originally Posted by MO

BJ..I'm familiar with ANKC,SACA,NACA,VCA..etc but who is KKC?

It should has been KCC which is the Kennel Control Council.

[xceler8shun]

Originally Posted by BJ

It should has been KCC which is the Kennel Control Council.

Thats who I was thinking of as well BJ, thought has to be a typo.

[BJ]

Originally Posted by Xrchic

Dogs that are bred to be that aggressive, and are brought up to be that aggressive should not be in suburban backyards. This time it was a little girl wandering over there, another incident involved a child falling out of a tree he had climbed... Next time it will be a family friend's child who wanders out the back on a visit or even a child who lives in the same house as the dogs and wanders out the back...

Its just too dangerous.

I find this comment rather strange. You talk about dogs that are breed to be aggressive? If we look at all breeds of dog's, now bear with me on this. take the Good old Poodle for starters' Do you know what that breed was for? Killing rats and other vermian. Next Pomeranian killing rats. Next Chow Chow guess what killing rat's and fox's next King Charles Spaniel yep you guessed it killing. Now theses are all breeds we have come to know and love, and i bet we all know one of these little buggers that is as mad as a hatter. they all have the power to kill some one and do a lot of damage in the processes. What i am trying to get at here is we always think it is the big dogs that kill, well it's not. About ten- twelve years ago we lived in Tassie, there was a women who was killed by her pet, guess what it was? A golden lab. I know we all have our own idea's as to what should be done, maybe we need to take a look over the fence once and a while. Bj

[hppsc]

The lesson here is, I think ALL dogs have the ability to be killers if at that time, and place, they feel threatened, or see a young child as prey for some reason, or whatever. It doesn't matter the breed, they can do some serious damage.

[drcook]

it seems that about 70% of the replies in this topic are concentrating on the dogs.

where were the parents?.

if by some peoples rationale that the dogs/owners are to blame because of not fencing of the dogs, then based on your arguments we need to fence of every lake, river, waterhole, drainway, roadway, freeway, highway, rail line, home, factory complex, shopping centre, bushland, playground, etc... blah, blah, blah.

the dogs were in an enclosure. THE CHILD WASN"T. how can a child of this age, get out at 7:30pm walk down the road and into the enclosure where the dogs were. This is not done in 10 seconds. How can the parents not of realised for such a long time that the child was gone.

The world is a dangerous place. Ubduction, hit by car, drowning (private pool or public waterhole), hit by train, attacked by any animal, getting lost.

Its up to parents to sheild the child from these dangers, not sheild every danger from the child.

[GCFordChic]

For those that think the dogs and their owners are to blame, would your opinion change if the circumstances were different and instead of a child the person killed was an adult burglar?

Im interested to know. I am guessing that it probably wouldnt have even made the news and if it did, would people instead argue that it was an intruder that came into the dogs' backyard and the dogs were only protecting their owner and their owners property, hence the burglar is to blame?

[GCFordChic]

Originally Posted by drcook

Its up to parents to sheild the child from these dangers, not sheild every danger from the child.

Agreed. There are a million 'what ifs' relating to children and potential dangers we can never anticipate them all and it is ridiculous to expect the whole community to be responsible for the welfare of a child.

[fiery]

Originally Posted by drcook

it seems that about 70% of the replies in this topic are concentrating on the dogs.

where were the parents?.

if by some peoples rationale that the dogs/owners are to blame because of not fencing of the dogs, then based on your arguments we need to fence of every lake, river, waterhole, drainway, roadway, freeway, highway, rail line, home, factory complex, shopping centre, bushland, playground, etc... blah, blah, blah.

the dogs were in an enclosure. THE CHILD WASN"T. how can a child of this age, get out at 7:30pm walk down the road and into the enclosure where the dogs were. This is not done in 10 seconds. How can the parents not of realised for such a long time that the child was gone.

The world is a dangerous place. Ubduction, hit by car, drowning (private pool or public waterhole), hit by train, attacked by any animal, getting lost.

Its up to parents to sheild the child from these dangers, not sheild every danger from the child.

Whilst I agree to a certain degree of what you are saying... I am one of the few that don't really think anyone is to blame.. it was a tragic accident.. an accident that could have, should have been avoided if this or that or even those were in place....
It was a tragic accident that happened and has destroyed so many lives..

Children can (and do) wander off at whatever time... sometimes the doors aren't locked the way you thought or whatever... You can be so busy getting dinner ready or tending to another child or something, and you think the child is playing in their room, the lounge room where ever... and you don't realise that they aren't in the house at all..

This can and has happened to many others.. whilst other parents have not had a tragic ending.. these people have.. a very very sad ending to this tale.

The dogs.... it's dark.. the owner obviously had tried to keep them restrained the best he could.. Two fences.... Two tied up, one roaming (not to sure why on that, but still not really the issue).. They are going to protect their yard, their property, their owner, each other... One attacks, the others will too.. Pack instinct..

Any dog can be a killer, and it is worse when there is more than one in a yard (or in the attack)... they do pack attack as they are pack animals..

I think everyone needs to stop and really think that gee, it was a tragedy and not say one is to blame over the other.. I am sure they are all playing the blame game bad enough themselves...

RIP little one

My heart goes out to the families involved all round....


Just my 2 cents worth....

[drcook]

Originally Posted by fiery

Just my 2 cents worth....

i agree with you completely. i will be the first to state i am not a parent so i cannot yet fully understand how difficult children (let alone the lost of one)can be.
and dont get me confused as a dog lover either. i fail to see any reason why any dog is needed and purely bred for hunting (guns, anyone?), and i hate dogs like pitbulls, etc.

its just everyone seem to knock politicians because of their "knee-jerk, quick-fix" policies, and then do the same in this situation... oh the dogs! blah blah.

[xceler8shun]

Removed by Xceler8shun and decided to bite my tongue instead.