Ecoboost V6 rant - Page 2

Vesper Martini · 23-06-2016, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

The Barra is a good show piece for what Australian engineering on a tight budget, can achieve. Many times Ford Australia ran orphaned engines, often to greater success than the yanks attempt. I find it hard to believe you lament keeping Aussies jobs for the sake of an engine that doesn't overshadow the Barra at all. Talk to any American Ford fans, and they lament the fact that the Barra never made their shores.

I loved the Barra when I had one but the only way it overshadows the V6 ecoboost is with physical size.
You need to move on, the Barra made its mark in 2003, It stops this year so what next?

FPV GTHO · 23-06-2016, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 208260

I agree! Time to work on this 2.7L Ecoboost V6 Focus RS 500, Ford! With a 9000 RPM Redline!
Unless you've already got it in the pipeline?

I doubt it will happen. There was talk of the Mk2 RS getting the Volvo I6 when the MK2 ST had the Volvo I5 but it never happened and they were the same family of engine. Switching to a V6 would be a big challenge for a small run.

**Luke Plaizier** · 23-06-2016, 08:34 PM

It's a pity about there being no Ecoboost V6 engines sold in Australia yet. It makes you wonder what sort of market there'd be for those interested in testing the swap-out of cars with older Duratec V6 - although not even many of those reached us - the Escape and Cougar come to mind. I don't recall any recent Mondeo's having the V6.

If I recall, Ford & Mazda co-developed the Duratec range of engines. And when Ford sold their majority share in Mazda, Mazda started evolving the design into their current SKyactiv, whereas Ford stuck with the Duratec, added Direct Injection, independent Cam phasing, stuck on a turbo and gave it a new badge.

I wonder if the I6T in Australia might have ever received the 'Ecoboost' sticker if they had given it Direct Injection? It has everything else required....

Lukeyson

Crazy Dazz · 23-06-2016, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

If I recall, Ford & Mazda co-developed the Duratec range of engines. And when Ford sold their majority share in Mazda, Mazda started evolving the design into their current SKyactiv, whereas Ford stuck with the Duratec, added Direct Injection, independent Cam phasing, stuck on a turbo and gave it a new badge.

Ford just slaps the same label on whatever they flog. They have applied "Duratec" to older engines still in production, Volvo engines, Mazda, etc, etc.
and if you stick a turbo on it, becomes "ecoboost."
Anything diesel (whether it is Ford, Mazda, PSA, etc) is call "Duratorque"

Crazy Dazz · 23-06-2016, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

I loved the Barra when I had one but the only way it overshadows the V6 ecoboost is with physical size.
You need to move on, the Barra made its mark in 2003, It stops this year so what next?

Most probably nothing.

Unless Ford can somehow justify building RHD Mondeos cheaply in Asia, we will continue to get a limited supply of British leftovers (from Spain) That's just not enough volume to support too many variations.

**ebxr8240** · 23-06-2016, 10:02 PM

Unless they utilise the Thai plant where trucks are assembled ? Only way I can think of small production ..

Crazy Dazz · 23-06-2016, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Yes Ecoboost is a Marketing Term, but read up its more than just a turbocharging an engine.

No, it really isn't.
As I said, technology has moved on, today's turbo-charged engines are much more sophisticated than something like the old Starion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

they are designed around economy, low rev response to give the feel of a larger engine.

Yes, and European makers (and some Japanese) have been doing that for decades. Saab was doing that back in the 80's, and Volvo weren't far behind.
The biggest joke is that whilst' SOME of Ford's "ecoboost" range are whole new engines, for others they have simply applied the technology to existing designs.

Most of us would view the I6 turbo as a performance engine, simply because the NA version is already large and has loads of torque. That would have been exactly the SAME had the Falcon survived and switched to the Cyclone V6. (Which could have been a 3.5, 3.7, or 4 litre) But again, slap a couple of turbos on it and it becomes "ecoboost"
Because it IS more economical than the big V8's its designed to replace.

The "2nd Gen" "ecoboost" is very definitely performance orientated, as it is designed to replace the HP V8s, with some versions expected to produce over 400kw.

FA have now made the ecoboost standard on the Focus. Which is a nonsense. Even the entry level model is $5k above its competitors, plus the increased maintenance and decreased longevity, just to save a few dollars a week on petrol. Madness.

Crazy Dazz · 23-06-2016, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched

According to Ford it doesn't.

That's ok, according to Ford, people like me don't exist anymore.

Junkyard-Dog · 23-06-2016, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford17

Yeah, it was called "Hi Cam" and appeared on Corollas in the 1980's; and well before DOHC started to become mainstream.

Territory ended up with the Jaguar-derived V6 diesel, which I don't think was ever referred to as an 'ecoboost'.

I had an AE82 Twin-Cam Seca with the 4-AGE engine. It had a "Twin Cam 16" decal on it.

Vesper Martini · 24-06-2016, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

I had an AE82 Twin-Cam Seca with the 4-AGE engine. It had a "Twin Cam 16" decal on it.

Yes because the 4AGE was a 16 valve twin Cam.
A fantastic revolutionary engine, built in transverse and longitudinal. which I had in my AE86.
Off memory Australia/NZ didn't get these either, the ones like we had would have been imports.

Vesper Martini · 24-06-2016, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

No, it really isn't.
As I said, technology has moved on, today's turbo-charged engines are much more sophisticated than something like the old Starion.

No its not just better because its more Sophisticated & modern, its specifically how its designed. they give a lot more low end power, running quite high compression ratios
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine

VW is the closest competitor which incidentally runs 12.5:1 ratio (quite high even for a N/a)
http://www.caradvice.com.au/438900/v...-5-tsi-engine/

Junkyard-Dog · 24-06-2016, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Yes because the 4AGE was a 16 valve twin Cam.
A fantastic revolutionary engine, built in transverse and longitudinal. which I had in my AE86.
Off memory Australia/NZ didn't get these either, the ones like we had would have been imports.

To clear it up, I was commenting about the 4AGE because I never heard of a Toyota "Hi-Cam" but the "Twin-Cam" label was well known. I don't know whether the AE82 was imported because I bought it second-hand. I seriously doubt they were import-only because there are plenty of them in Australia.

Crazy Dazz · 24-06-2016, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

No its not just better because its more Sophisticated & modern, its specifically how its designed. they give a lot more low end power,

Yes, and as I said, other manufacturers have been doing that for decades.

Obviously a newly designed engine (as SOME ecoboost are) will incorporate as much up to date technology as possible.

Fact remains that as a concept it is most definitely nothing new.

Crazy Dazz · 24-06-2016, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

To clear it up, I was commenting about the 4AGE because I never heard of a Toyota "Hi-Cam"

Australian Corollas were the last of the majors to fit OHC engines. So to confuse the average punter, they started calling their engines "Hi-Cam", even advertised it, and stuck badges on the car. Fact was it was the same side-cam engine they'd used for ages.

Junkyard-Dog · 24-06-2016, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Australian Corollas were the last of the majors to fit OHC engines. So to confuse the average punter, they started calling their engines "Hi-Cam", even advertised it, and stuck badges on the car. Fact was it was the same side-cam engine they'd used for ages.

They were last of the major manufacturers to fit them... really? Why did my '86 model Corolla have a 16-valve DOHC engine then?

Crazy Dazz · 24-06-2016, 05:49 PM

For me, the biggest irony of calling it an economy engine, rather than a "performance" engine, is that the biggest advantage lies in performance.
So you can offer it has a higher spec option on say a Mondeo or even a Focus, and a get a massive performance boost with negligible increase in weight, and without having to re-engineer and try to shoe-horn a V6 or I5 in there.

What they have instead done with the Focus, is nonsensical. They have gone with the smaller EB as standard across the range, and jacked up the price accordingly. It makes ZERO sense to talk about saving a few dollars a week in petrol, when you have made the car $X more expensive.

Their problem, unfortunately, is that since their devolution from Mazda, Ford have been left stranded without a new 2.0l engine. Ford is still making the old Mazda "L", whilst Mazda have moved on to the "P" series (aka "Skyactiv")

Don't get me wrong, the Yamaha developed Sigma is a good engine, as are the ecoboost versions. I'm just saying that turbo-charging is nothing new, Ford are hardly the first, probably not even the best, and categorising it as an economy engine is questionable.

The 1.5l version fitted to the new Focus is a fine engine, but it is LESS economical than the larger NA engines in the Mazda 3 and Golf, and only marginally better than the Civic and Corolla. But it does have superior performance.
Ironically, both Honda and VW market similar small turbo engines as "performance" options, and both get better fuel economy than the ecoboost.

Crazy Dazz · 24-06-2016, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

They were last of the major manufacturers to fit them... really?

Yes, "really"
(Although you could argue Holden cheated by selling a cosmetically altered Pulsar as the Astra.)
Can't remember who was first, but by the early 80's say 1982, The Colt, Laser, and Pulsar were all OHC. IIRC there was a time when Holden's only small car offerings were the Barina (Suzuki Swift) or their slightly larger Camira. Then they started re-badging the Pulsar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

They were last of the major manufacturers to fit them... really? Why did my '86 model Corolla have a 16-valve DOHC engine then?

Is that a trick question?
Maybe you fitted it yourself, but I assume it's because that's the engine Toyota put in it?
I'd have to double-check when Toyota first offered the "a" engines as an option but it was definitely well after Ford, Nissan, and Mitsi had gone exclusively OHC.
IIRC Your '86 model must have been one of the first of the '80 series with the "a" engines as standard, as the changeover must have been around that time.

Junkyard-Dog · 24-06-2016, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Is that a trick question?

No, you just don't seem to know what you're talking about.

2.8L Hilux · 26-06-2016, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

We have a few smaller variants available for sale here up to the 2.3L 4 cylinder in the mustang.

but no V6 yet!

The most recent article I read on the Ford Edge we arte getting says diesel only, so we miss out on the Edge Sport with the 2.7 Ecoboost V6??

let alone the 243KW Fusion/Mondeo Sport

I don't think there is a need for an Ecoboost V6.

The Ecoboost 2.3L 4cyl makes 232kW (with fuel excellent economy).
Your average punter isn't going to want or need any more than that.

I've driven both.. However one was in a mustang rental (and driven like a rental) and the other in a F150 (not rental)... not really comparing apples with apples.

Vesper Martini · 27-06-2016, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

They were last of the major manufacturers to fit them... really? Why did my '86 model Corolla have a 16-valve DOHC engine then?

I think What Dazz is saying is that Australian made cars were the last to have OHC
I haven't personally seen a High Cam Badge but it would probably have been in reference to the second Gen 4A-FE engine which had a Higher set Cam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_A_engine
(yes I had to Google for this)

Your 86 Corolla would have been an import, I'm pretty sure Australian assembled cars never had the 4AGE

Vesper Martini · 27-06-2016, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2.8L Hilux

I don't think there is a need for an Ecoboost V6.

The Ecoboost 2.3L 4cyl makes 232kW (with fuel excellent economy).
Your average punter isn't going to want or need any more than that.

I've driven both.. However one was in a mustang rental (and driven like a rental) and the other in a F150 (not rental)... not really comparing apples with apples.

I wont deny the 2.3 Ecoboost isn't a great engine.
For comparison it makes more power and Torque than the 4L Barra and at Less RPM.
This would make it feel like a Bigger engine, which is part of what Ecoboost is all about.

If its good in the Mustang it would be insane in the Focus RS.

My complaint with the lack of V6 is there is a Fusion Sport & Edge Sport with the 2.7 Ecoboost. yet we wont get it.