Falcon deserved better

[Smoke Pursuit]

Falcon has done alright. Some people at Ford have the passion. You only have to look at the GTF program to know that.

[mik]

Originally Posted by b2tf

Sorry but I don't actually disagree with the article. My FG XR8 was wofeul at braking under high speed and caught me out more than once. That said, I wouldn't say it was dangerous, just more a characteristic of the car that you had to get used to. Obviously the 5.0 is a lot better.

fair enough mate, theres no doubt when your exploring a bit of high speed stuff , you can always use more braking power, but general duties would it be fair to say 99% of these things are pretty decent ?(we might leave the AU S1 out of that statement ) .
A lot of the older cars where even pretty sad for general duties, and i have some interesting (even amusing )stories..................... i could share about road experiences involving brakes with older cars and trucks.......but that might be getting off the topic.... maybe another time.

[mik]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Having done an interstate trip in my old TE50, and done 3 in my old XR5T and 1 in my ST i can tell you that the Focus is a lot more accommodating of luggage then my old AU was. I dunno about the size of both but i always seemed to have more room in the Focus

sedans are good , but a big opening hatch has that extra height no doubt about it, i bought a largeish dryer a while ago, picked it up in the au, i got it home , but half of it was hanging out of the boot tied from the boot lid to the tow bar, the thought occured to me at the time it would have fitted in a terri or a hatch of some kind easily.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Falcman0o7

I can't afford a new car but plenty of people can.
Like people buy 4000 commodores but only 500 falcons and we know the falcon is better car. Reviews ect also have the falcon in favour.
When I say uneduacted I mean most of those that bought a commodore simply bought it because it was a COMMODORE.

I see your point, trust me i do. Buts its their money that they are spending. Not yours or mine so they can buy whatever they want, whether you or i think its right or wrong
As far as better, IMO id probably buy a VF over an FG. Having only sat in a VF SS, its bloody nice place to be. The only thing that sways me to FG is the turbo 6.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Falcman0o7

I can't afford a new car but plenty of people can.
Like people buy 4000 commodores but only 500 falcons and we know the falcon is better car. Reviews ect also have the falcon in favour.
When I say uneduacted I mean most of those that bought a commodore simply bought it because it was a COMMODORE.

A very broad brush you paint there. I certainly didn't buy one because I didn't know about Falcon. Heck it was my first Commodore, every large car before that was a Falcon or a Territory.

Take out the fan boys for both brands and when you look at the raw numbers, it would seem to indicate, many prefer the Commodore over Falcon. There is no other way to explain that kind of sales ratio between the brands.

As for uneducated, perhaps its the opposite problem. Perhaps many people know the Ford experience and don't care to experience it again? Ford haven't fixed the dealer networks, still think recalls are something other brands do and still have no decent marketing and social media.

Rinse and repeat that state of affairs year after year and you are going to see it affect sales.

[galaxy xr8]

I am a person that has experienced the dealer network and have been very much put of by it, sure it’s easy for people to say find another dealer, well guess what, just how does a person do that when there is only one Ford dealer in the town and they know they have the monopoly.
After the service I personally received I will never ever go back to that said dealer and I don’t feel like traveling 4-5 hours for a round trip to find another when there is a dealer 20 mins from me that needs a stern talking to.

I read an article not to long ago about how Ford Australia is remodelling its dealer network and trying to get back consumer confidence as they were and are aware of the image they have.

So until that day comes I will never set foot in my local dealer and they will never receive a cent of mine when I am about to look for a new vehicle very shortly.

[RSEA]

Bmw dealerships are the same. Theyre all car salesmen when it comes down to it

[prydey]

Originally Posted by RSEA

Bmw dealerships are the same. Theyre all car salesmen when it comes down to it

no that can't be right. i read on here all the time that its only ford dealerships. must be some mistake.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

And yes....maybe 100 years ago the camira was the best car at the time. Don't see how that's relevant to falcon v commadore.

He is just pointing out that COTY isn't the be-all and end-all of car awards, given that Wheels have made some questionable decisions in the past.


And for the record, the VE commodore won car of the year in 2006, and is the last Australian car to do so, last falcon was the BA in 2002.

[Falcman0o7]

I suppose I just get sick of the one eyed holden bogans I deal with at work and become just as bad as them! What annoys me is that when I ask them why the Falcon is **** they can't answer me.
Sorry for being a Knob.

[johnydep]

When I mentioned that Falcon & Commodore should have been slightly smaller, to keep up with market trends - Watch this http://www.drive.com.au/new-car-comp...bnr=MjM1MzQ5Nw yes it is the higher end of the market, but it is the sedan size that has become predominate on our roads.

If either of the local manufacturers had a similar sized rear wheel drive car, we'd have purchased one instead of the Honda Accord Euro. The Falcon and Commodore underpinnings are fantastic, it's just that the times have moved on. Our city's have become more congested, car parks & driveways smaller, families are smaller, people have 2 or 3 vehicles some to suit various needs - SUV for the weekend, ute for work.

Falcon deserved better - better CEO, better leaders, better people with a vision.

[davenl5l]

Originally Posted by Nikked

He is just pointing out that COTY isn't the be-all and end-all of car awards, given that Wheels have made some questionable decisions in the past.


And for the record, the VE commodore won car of the year in 2006, and is the last Australian car to do so, last falcon was the BA in 2002.

territory 2004

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by davenl5l

territory 2004

I believe Nikked was commenting about the Falcon - "last falcon was the BA in 2002."

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Couple things...not even really specific to Ford and the Falcon really...

If you just lazily sit back and don't advertise your product, don't whinge when people don't buy it.

If you don't read the market and see which way the wind is blowing and you don't respond accordingly, then don't complain when sales drop sharply.

Don't get lazy and believe that people will use the old logic of "dad had one and his dad had one so I'll have to buy one"...doesn't work like that now with increasingly-informed customers who realise that they don't have to purchase one particular make of car and can actually shop around a wide variety of choices.

The thing is Fomoco (US and OZ where applicable) *have*

- read the market and seen which way the wind is blowing and have responded accordingly (re-locating manufacturing in APac, consolidating and expanding their portfolio to include the types of cars that are popular [rightly or wrongly] at the moment)

- not been lazy and believed that people will use the old logic of "dad had one and his dad had one so I'll have to buy one"... (advertising the new batch of products online, radio, tv - partnering with popular [rightly on wrongly] TV shows)

It's hard to agree with the execution of some parts of the strategy, but Ford *does* have a plan and *is* transforming itself.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by johnydep

When I mentioned that Falcon & Commodore should have been slightly smaller, to keep up with market trends - Watch this http://www.drive.com.au/new-car-comp...bnr=MjM1MzQ5Nw yes it is the higher end of the market, but it is the sedan size that has become predominate on our roads.

If either of the local manufacturers had a similar sized rear wheel drive car, we'd have purchased one instead of the Honda Accord Euro. The Falcon and Commodore underpinnings are fantastic, it's just that the times have moved on. Our city's have become more congested, car parks & driveways smaller, families are smaller, people have 2 or 3 vehicles some to suit various needs - SUV for the weekend, ute for work.

Falcon deserved better - better CEO, better leaders, better people with a vision.

The problem is that would Falcadores of a size similar to those tested have provided enough sales volume and then enough profit margin. The biggest selling vehicles in Australia are the size down from these (Corolla/Mazda 3) and next is the utes and iirc comes SUV's. And none of these can be built here at a profit unless government incentives help meet costs and lets not forgot what help the Asian governments give their manufacturers, be it direct or through trade barriers. For any factory to make money in Australia it has to sell numbers equal to the top three sellers combined or export the majority. Our Asian neighbours have marvellous blocks to imports and I cannot see buyers in Europe choosing a mid-size Falcadore over VW/Fiat/Opel/Ford/Renault/Peugot/..et al.. and in the US they build the mid-sizers there and buy their own with far greater loyalty to "US-made" then we do.

[prydey]

bingo, not to mention very few other manufacturers have orphan models in their lineup. most other manufacturers that dominate the top of the charts sell the same vehicle to the globe. some badge it differently for different regions, but the falcon/commodore thing is unique, and it has died for a reason.

falcon/commodore could have been a global model, but not built here. it was never going to work the longer it went on. both GM and Ford haven't seen the value in keeping either product for whatever reason, and us aussies just need to deal with it.

[davenl5l]

Originally Posted by johnydep

I believe Nikked was commenting about the Falcon - "last falcon was the BA in 2002."

he did say aussie car lol

[johnydep]

How do you interpret these figures?

http://www.caradvice.com.au/305763/n...s-august-2014/

New Car sales for the month -
Small to medium 18404
Large - 3800

New SUV sales for the month -
Small to medium 6504
Large - 5862

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by johnydep

How do you interpret these figures?

http://www.caradvice.com.au/305763/n...s-august-2014/

New Car sales for the month -
Small to medium 18404
Large - 3800

New SUV sales for the month -
Small to medium 6504
Large - 5862

I think you've reinforced my point, small cars biggest sellers, utes next and suvs third.

Looking at top 3 sales from your link, top 3 smalls in both price ranges were 9928 units and I work out for the 2 price segments of top 3 mediums to be 3356. So how do Ford/Holden/Toyota make any money locally building and fighting it out for 3356 medium sized units per month if they down sized the falcadores. Or adding the large car top 3 to the medium segment which is another 3192 units and assuming everyone now buys the smaller new midsize Falcadores that's still approx. 6500 units between 3 players locally and then add the competition from importers. Actually more importantly to whom were they going to export their new mid-sized models because local only sales will only create more red ink.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I think you've reinforced my point, small cars biggest sellers, utes next and suvs third.

Looking at top 3 sales from your link, top 3 smalls in both price ranges were 9928 units and I work out for the 2 price segments of top 3 mediums to be 3356. So how do Ford/Holden/Toyota make any money locally building and fighting it out for 3356 medium sized units per month if they down sized the falcadores. Or adding the large car top 3 to the medium segment which is another 3192 units and assuming everyone now buys the smaller new midsize Falcadores that's still approx. 6500 units between 3 players locally and then add the competition from importers. Actually more importantly to whom were they going to export their new mid-sized models because local only sales will only create more red ink.

My opinion is only one as a personal buyer, and also of one working in the automotive industry.

What I see and hear are people wanting to buy Australian but not wanting to own a large 4 door sedan. A lot of couples have two cars in the driveway, one is usually either a SUV, People Mover, work Van or Ute. The other is either a Sedan or Hatch.

As another topic http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11424728 mentions, small cars are getting bigger. Yes, the manufacturers are brining in new smaller models to replace their previous small model that has beefed up - the Corolla is a perfect example.

This is happening across the globe.

Now imagine if Ford & Holden shrunk their models, just slightly. To bring them in line with other manufacturers. Other vehicle manufacturers only build large cars for their luxury market, their bread and butter is small to medium vehicles.

Holden attempted this by bringing in the Cruze, but the Commodore is too big to bring over a large proportion of buyers.

Ford tried with the Focus but instead of building here the contract went to Thailand, plus the Falcon is too big.

If the Falcon & Commodore where shrunk slightly, I believe that sales would have crossed into both medium & large car sales. And with a proper export plan and strucuture in place, more likely to sell in overseas markets.

At the moment the US Commodore model is well received as an SS but has no market as a standard passenger vehicle because they have better options. The same would go with the Falcon. Even though great cars, the budget spent on them is very low, due to the low numbers of sales.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

I still believe that if Holden and Ford had the backing and support 10 years ago, they could have built a strong export market for their models. However, they would have had to have had management with vision and strength to build the right models. Our size is not a disadvantage, we are the 12 biggest economy in the world. Bigger than Sweden which has three strong automotive exporters.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by johnydep

My opinion is only one as a personal buyer, and also of one working in the automotive industry.

What I see and hear are people wanting to buy Australian but not wanting to own a large 4 door sedan. A lot of couples have two cars in the driveway, one is usually either a SUV, People Mover, work Van or Ute. The other is either a Sedan or Hatch.

As another topic http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11424728 mentions, small cars are getting bigger. Yes, the manufacturers are brining in new smaller models to replace their previous small model that has beefed up - the Corolla is a perfect example.

This is happening across the globe.

Now imagine if Ford & Holden shrunk their models, just slightly. To bring them in line with other manufacturers. Other vehicle manufacturers only build large cars for their luxury market, their bread and butter is small to medium vehicles.

Holden attempted this by bringing in the Cruze, but the Commodore is too big to bring over a large proportion of buyers.

Ford tried with the Focus but instead of building here the contract went to Thailand, plus the Falcon is too big.

If the Falcon & Commodore where shrunk slightly, I believe that sales would have crossed into both medium & large car sales. And with a proper export plan and strucuture in place, more likely to sell in overseas markets.

At the moment the US Commodore model is well received as an SS but has no market as a standard passenger vehicle because they have better options. The same would go with the Falcon. Even though great cars, the budget spent on them is very low, due to the low numbers of sales.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

I still believe that if Holden and Ford had the backing and support 10 years ago, they could have built a strong export market for their models. However, they would have had to have had management with vision and strength to build the right models. Our size is not a disadvantage, we are the 12 biggest economy in the world. Bigger than Sweden which has three strong automotive exporters.

I can see your point, I just cannot see where the sales volume would come from looking at what we buy now. Would I be right in saying you believe a slightly smaller Falc/Commie would have maintained sales of what they did in the late 90's to mid 00's . The problem is that isn't where our market is now and this sized vehicle isn't sold in big numbers in most other countries as well. Doesn't Volvo produce many different sized vehicles from small to large SUV. Maybe if you looked at the numbers of mid-size they sold, domestically and then as exports to see if there is enough volume for say an Aust. manufacturer to only build/sell this size and still survive.
Cheers.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I can see your point, I just cannot see where the sales volume would come from looking at what we buy now. Would I be right in saying you believe a slightly smaller Falc/Commie would have maintained sales of what they did in the late 90's to mid 00's . The problem is that isn't where our market is now and this sized vehicle isn't sold in big numbers in most other countries as well. Doesn't Volvo produce many different sized vehicles from small to large SUV. Maybe if you looked at the numbers of mid-size they sold, domestically and then as exports to see if there is enough volume for say an Aust. manufacturer to only build/sell this size and still survive.
Cheers.

No, I don't think that they would have had the same local sales figures. Though I do think that if they had two successful models selling well going down the production line, and a successful export market, they could have remained a viable business in Australia.

The Territory, when introduced, took the market by storm. If management kept running with it and sorted out the bugs fast, introduced the diesel & 6 speed early on, and had the backing to push it hard as an export model, they could have picked up a lot of sales. But they needed the Falcon to be a successful sales model as well.

I would have liked to have seen a slightly shorter Falcon with a lower roof line, lower mounted seats & dash height

Volvo does build many different sized models, but so does FoMoCo world wide. I still reckon Ford Oz could have done well with two successful models, if they had a successful export market.

Now it's just hypothetical dreams.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by johnydep

if they had a successful export market.

the aussie dollar is too high for exports of any sort to work. the types of cars we produce here are a dime a dozen offshore, so they are generally sold at a loss.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by prydey

the aussie dollar is too high for exports of any sort to work. the types of cars we produce here are a dime a dozen offshore, so they are generally sold at a loss.

If everyone thought like that, there'd be nothing worth doing. We have some very successful Australian businesses exporting products.

The German's had the same problem. Instead of giving up they sold cheaper models with a difference that identified them, & then value added to each successive model. They looked outside the box and outside of their comfort zone.

Falcon deserved better - management, governments and union leaders that thought outside of the box, rather than the status quo 'the aussie dollar is too high for exports of any sort to work. the types of cars we produce here are a dime a dozen offshore, so they are generally sold at a loss'.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by johnydep

If everyone thought like that,......

its the facts though isn't it. Ford is a global company that already builds cars in much cheaper environments. If you think they didn't look at every scenario to help the australian manufacturing centre, then i don't think you are giving them enough credit.

no one but a handful of people care about which wheels drive the car, and ford already produce a mid and large car at other plants which are delivered to the globe. the aussie products were/are orphan products that didn't really fit in to the 'one ford' case.

australians (ford fans) let emotions get in the way. the falcon is a great car, but its run its course in the ford world.