Bad news & good news from CAPA

sly · 07-09-2007, 10:32 AM

Talking to Justin today, was looking to order a Powerdyne kit, he gave me some bad news & some good news.

The bad news is that the Powerdyne company in the US has "basically imploded" and CAPA are starting to phase out Powerdyne kits as supplies dry up.

The good news is that they still have an AU development mule and would most likely develop an entry-level Vortech kit for the AU in about 6 months' time as long as there seems to be demand for it. Obviously they can't lock in pricing before doing the development, but he talked about an upcoming entry-level Vortech kit for the Holden 3.8 coming in at around $4,000 for the basic hardware and about $1,000 for the fuel system and management.

I'd suggest that anyone who likes the idea of a complete, off-the-shelf Vortech kit for their AU start emailing CAPA now.

Eu-GenixX · 07-09-2007, 11:39 AM

vortech's have a wide range of boost they can run don't they?

sly · 07-09-2007, 02:11 PM

Yep.

They will probably do an entry-level kit at around 7-9 PSI to suit stock internals. Once the shine has gone off that level of performance, you don't have to junk the head unit to get more. Just add tougher internals, lower compression, bigger injectors & pump, management, whatever floats your boat, along with a pulley to provide the level of boost you want.

Mark351 · 07-09-2007, 02:56 PM

In six months time there will already be an AU kit well established (Raptor, not Vortech) that should start from a lower base cost.

sly · 07-09-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathXR

In six months time there will already be an AU kit well established (Raptor, not Vortech) that should start from a lower base cost.

and if it comes with emissions compliance paperwork enabling the car to be engineered and issued with a modplate then I shall consider it a serious contender.

If not, it won't be on my shopping list.

partie · 07-09-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sly

and if it comes with emissions compliance paperwork enabling the car to be engineered and issued with a modplate then I shall consider it a serious contender.

If not, it won't be on my shopping list.

i agree

honer · 07-09-2007, 07:21 PM

Should 'only' be 5 years away if its capa

And cost about 10k

Casper · 07-09-2007, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honer

Should 'only' be 5 years away if its capa

And cost about 10k

Thats a bit optimistic dont you think?

5 years and $10K.. for the base model that cant do 9psi.

Mark351 · 07-09-2007, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sly

and if it comes with emissions compliance paperwork enabling the car to be engineered and issued with a modplate then I shall consider it a serious contender.

If not, it won't be on my shopping list.

Emmissions paperwork rendered useless with exhaust, tune, etc...

Sledgehammer · 08-09-2007, 08:41 AM

Personally after having a S/C and a Turbo, I wouldn't be concerned, the Turbo is a better option IMO. (sorry dont want to hijack thread here either).

Eu-GenixX · 08-09-2007, 03:25 PM

i'm still waiting to see what this raptor kit has in it.. and how much it's going to cost....

sly · 10-09-2007, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honer

Should 'only' be 5 years away if its capa

And cost about 10k

So on that logic they are selling Vortech kits for BA/BF through the simple expedient of time travel...

sly · 10-09-2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathXR

Emmissions paperwork rendered useless with exhaust, tune, etc...

What does a tune do to emissions compliance on a stocker? Can the cops detect something invisible like a tune?

As far as exhausts go, my friendly local engineering signatory told me not 2 months ago that the exhaust would not be an emissions issue as long as I had a cat and O2 sensor installed. As I already have pacies and a 2-1/2" system and would be having the car engineered with same, he said he would have to do a static noise test to sign off on the zorst.

Don't get me wrong I'm not hanging **** on the Raptor kit, some competition will benefit us all. But I'd really like to see someone step up to the plate and do a full out-of-the-box kit with tune and emissions testing done. That's why I haven't just gone ahead and turbo'd it. The Snort kit lacks those essential (to me) ingredients. There is maybe one workshop here in Newcastle with the skill to put a turbo install together and tune it to pass the emissions test, and they are absolutely flat out.

I'd happily stump up the premium $$$ if someone started doing what Walkinshaw is now doing for Dunnydores. IIRC there were 2 compliant turbo setups available when the EA was new, from AVO and AIT. They seem to have long since disappeared.

sly · 10-09-2007, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer

Personally after having a S/C and a Turbo, I wouldn't be concerned, the Turbo is a better option IMO. (sorry dont want to hijack thread here either).

I'm not annual (the original word was filtered - you'll have to guess what it was) about my threads. What sort of S/C did you have? Centrifugal?

I'd prefer a positive displacement (say a Whipple) blower over either, but that doesn't seem to be an option.

sly · 10-09-2007, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

Thats a bit optimistic dont you think?

5 years and $10K.. for the base model that cant do 9psi.

If enough of us start hounding them they might pull the finger out, and may even be willing to launch it with a group buy. Who knows?

Casper · 10-09-2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sly

If enough of us start hounding them they might pull the finger out, and may even be willing to launch it with a group buy. Who knows?

They would want to drop their pricing at least 20% though. Thats the problem with Capa. The product is good (but no better than what Raptor appear to be doing) but the pricing is over the top.

I believe "CAPA" is latin for "Drag testicles through Wallet".

sly · 10-09-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

They would want to drop their pricing at least 20% though. Thats the problem with Capa. The product is good (but no better than what Raptor appear to be doing) but the pricing is over the top.

I believe "CAPA" is latin for "Drag testicles through Wallet".

You don't get emissions compliance for nothing. TANSTAAFL.

Casper · 10-09-2007, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sly

You don't get emissions compliance for nothing. TANSTAAFL.

Its not emission compliant. Its only a partial compliance. It still wont pass without further testing.

Its like getting a certificate saying "this bit is ok" but you have to have all the other bits engineered and tested. Effectively is worth nothing.

And yes, I have looked into this in extreme detail.

sly · 10-09-2007, 11:08 AM

I understood it was emissions certified so that an engineer can take CAPA's certificate as evidence of emissions compliance when certifying the whole installation, thus avoiding the need for a drive cycle test. Seems fair enough to me.

Are you saying it still needs the drive cycle done?

Casper · 10-09-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sly

I understood it was emissions certified so that an engineer can take CAPA's certificate as evidence of emissions compliance when certifying the whole installation, thus avoiding the need for a drive cycle test. Seems fair enough to me.

Are you saying it still needs the drive cycle done?

Yes.
Its not a "fit it and all is great, test passed" deal at all. The setup still needs to be engineered and that includes a emissions test if you want it to be legal.
End result is that the supercharger documentation is "engineer approved". That means that the engineering cert is easier to obtain as the hardware itself has already passed Australian standards.... but guess what? To get the whole thing engineered and legal you need an emissions test. The supercharger is fine but the setup, tune and exhaust emissions are all to variable to be "default passed". The Capa kits are not as engineer friendly as they like you to think they are.

GK · 10-09-2007, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

I believe "CAPA" is latin for "Drag testicles through Wallet".

Classic! LOL!

GK

sly · 10-09-2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

Yes.
Its not a "fit it and all is great, test passed" deal at all. The setup still needs to be engineered and that includes a emissions test if you want it to be legal.
End result is that the supercharger documentation is "engineer approved". That means that the engineering cert is easier to obtain as the hardware itself has already passed Australian standards.... but guess what? To get the whole thing engineered and legal you need an emissions test. The supercharger is fine but the setup, tune and exhaust emissions are all to variable to be "default passed". The Capa kits are not as engineer friendly as they like you to think they are.

After exchange of numerous PM's, the issue here is that my engineer (in NSW) on first approach is willing to accept CAPA's paperwork as evidence of emission compliance whereas Casper has been told by every engineer he talked to (in Vic) that they would not accept it and would require an emissions test.

So the issue is differences between individual engineers or between states, not necessarily a problem with CAPA's emissions compliance paperwork itself.

The bottom line is: anyone looking to fit and engineer a CAPA kit should do what both Casper and I have done, talk to an engineer and find out his requirements before having your testicles dragged through your wallet!

Mark One · 10-09-2007, 08:57 PM

One question. Are any superchargers or turbochargers on the market now that are emission compliant?

sly · 10-09-2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark One

One question. Are any superchargers or turbochargers on the market now that are emission compliant?

AFAIK CAPA are the only one who claim to be, provided you fit their entire kit in accordance with their instructions. Everyone else just supplies basic SC or turbo hardware and leaves tuning and compliance to the end user.

Mark One · 10-09-2007, 10:33 PM

So its possible to engineer most set ups to get compliance?

Now I'll stop hijacking the thread.

sly · 10-09-2007, 10:39 PM

I guess so. I'm not looking at anything that leaves emissions up to me. Options in Newcastle are very limited.

Eu-GenixX · 11-09-2007, 10:08 AM

i should probably investigate things up here in qld....

but i think any aftermarket engine management is automatically considered illegal up here.... but it's not enforced... any exhaust that is noticeable louder then standard.. is also considered defectable... which means atleast half the cars on the road are defectable...

i'll just get a blue plate and be done with it....

sly · 08-10-2007, 11:19 PM

A quick update... speaking to Scott at CAPA today, he said they hoped to have a range of sealed Vortech kits for EA-AU available "in a couple of months". Pricing may be along the lines of the new Vortech kits for VS-VY Dunnydores, which run $3995 for basic hardware (no fuel system or management), $4395 for a complete 7psi kit (no tune required) and $5395 for a complete 9psi kit. None of these include bigger injectors so the Falcon kits may be dearer by the cost of 6 injectors.

These Vortech kits may work out a lot closer to the Raptor kit in price and spec than previously thought due to use of the sealed head unit. Will be good to compare actual product.

BTW Eu-GenixX, Scott said that their kits build boost pretty much in a straight line against revs - at 2000rpm a 9psi kit should be giving between 2 and 3psi, enough to make a noticeable, but not huge, difference to pickup as the torque converter stalls up. I'm now pricing a turbo install which will give full boost at 2000rpm (but leave engineering/emissions up to me) against the CAPA Vortech kit plus the cost of a 2700 stally (in case I'm not happy with the response @ 2000rpm). Be interesting to see which one wins out.