Smart Regenerative Charging

[rondeo]

Smart charge failure 160000 km?

Seeing a small acid leak from the battery vent
I plugged a DVM into the cigar lighter.

Voltage remains more or less constant somewhere between 14.4 and 15.2, depending on temp (lower as temp goes up), and up and down slightly as engine revs go up and down.

Smart charge is meant to do the opposite, up to about 15v downhill and down to about 12.5 when accelerating, as I have verified on my other car.

I read somewhere the alternator defaults to a fixed charge voltage when smart charge fails. I'm getting overcharge though.

Possibles causes are alternator, wiring or PCM.

Alternator about $800.

Pays to check the battery compartment as there may be no indication to the driver via dash lights.

[NZ XR6]

Is the battery OK? From my observations when the OE battery was dying, the system keeps charging if the battery voltage drops too far when the alternator shuts off.

Sent from my SM-G9208 using Tapatalk

[NZ XR6]

PS I suspect it is still working because you are seeing over voltage. If it had failed, then I expect that you'd see a constant voltage of 14.4 V.

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

PS I suspect it is still working because you are seeing over voltage. If it had failed, then I expect that you'd see a constant voltage of 14.4 V.

That's what I thought as well.
Passed a battery test at battery shop OK, conductance and carbon pile.
While driving the voltage is constant at values mostly 15,14.6,14.4 but never goes below as I think it should with smart charge which goes up and down constantly.
Test should ideally be Ford IDS or auto electrician with expensive OBD.
There is a test box for the 3 wire regulators which can command the alternator to output specific voltages. None of the auto electricians I spoke to had a one wire LIN tester only the three wire.
Forscan has no PID for commanded generator output as far as I see, just state of charge. Which is currently 80%, exactly as it should be.
Will keep an eye on it for a while . . .

[mac_man_luke]

does it have a sensor on the neg battery terminal? on my ranger i could disconnect that and then the alternator defaulted to standard alternator behaviour - be a good test?

[rondeo]

Yes there's a battery sensor on neg terminal but not easy to bypass.
You gave me an idea though, I'll see what happens when I disconnect the LIN control wire from the alternator. It should default to a fixed voltage.
Currently it will stay fixed at 15v for 40 minutes at a time (round trip to town).

[rondeo]

Disconnected the LIN regulator control wire.

System voltage defaults to 13.8V max.

Fault code in PCM:
P1632:08-2C Smart Alternator Faults
Sensor/Circuit
Bus signal/Message failures.

Some Googling, the only smart regulator tester I could see:

http://autodiagger.com/autodiagger-a...FVcmvQodorwG2g

And the old BMS question, in post #6:

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...es-why.404981/

[rondeo]

"Fault detection includes Mechanical Fault, Electrical Fault, Thermal Fault, LIN Bus time-out, Comm error and LIN protocol errors. The extensive diagnostics that the IC provides shows how far a digital-controlled alternator has progressed beyond the simple idiot light of analog control."

I'm thinking I'm the idiot here.

Googling I came across the above which shows how complex charging systems have become:

http://www.eenewsautomotive.com/cont...harging-system

I reconnected the LIN bus and the voltage stayed at 14.4 for the run to town.

I'm looking suspiciously at the battery current sensor on the negative terminal . . . there's a PID in Forscan called 'Battery amps'. 'Battery amps' wouldn't make sense in this context, given the number displayed is 465500. Not sure what it means.

Less complex explanations here:

http://www.motoplat.nl/Tech%20Info/E...Alternator.pdf

[NZ XR6]

Wow, that's a bit more complicated than I expected.

I expect the BMS learns the new battery behavior after a while, so while the reset would be nice to do, it's not essential. Interesting thing with my wagon was I don't recall the fuel consumption dropping when stopped at the lights before replacing the OE battery with a Century.

[NZ XR6]

I was at Jaycar and bought a ciggy lighter DVM. Not impressed though, it's angled for LHD and the V symbol obscures the tenths digit. Might return it after a few days ...

Well, during a 15 minute drive, mine sat at 14.4 - 14.7 V all of the time, even when the fuel consumption at idle dropped. Is there any other energy saving measure that could account for that drop in consumption?

I turned on every electrical load I could at idle, and it never went below 14.4. One other observation is that I've never seen the headlights dim at night, which you would expect if the voltage dropped to 12.5. So does the low voltage only occur if the headlights are off?

Lots of questions and not much information. I suspect that the charging system is smarter than us!

[rondeo]

At least the LX is running fine despite doubts about the charging system. Not too worried about, just puzzled.

It behaves in a totally different way to the zetec which always shows the voltage going up and down between 13.5 and 15V.

I have a nice Fluke voltmeter with min and max which beeps when a new value is stored, so I don't need to watch it all the time. Once on a 30km trip the LX suddenly started doing what the zetec does, for about 5 minutes, then went back to the fixed voltage.

Im not sure what you are referring to when you say the fuel consumption drops at idle, is that when you switch off a load?

[NZ XR6]

Originally Posted by rondeo

At least the LX is running fine despite doubts about the charging system. Not too worried about, just puzzled.

It behaves in a totally different way to the zetec which always shows the voltage going up and down between 13.5 and 15V.

I have a nice Fluke voltmeter with min and max which beeps when a new value is stored, so I don't need to watch it all the time. Once on a 30km trip the LX suddenly started doing what the zetec does, for about 5 minutes, then went back to the fixed voltage.

Im not sure what you are referring to when you say the fuel consumption drops at idle, is that when you switch off a load?

No, if I'm waiting at traffic lights the instantaneous fuel consumption drops by about 0.4 l/hr after maybe 10 seconds. It doesn't always happen, for example if the aircon is on. But there isn't any change in the voltage.

Do you have different batteries in the LX and Zetec?

I've checked the ciggy lighter DVM, which reads 0.23 V high - another reason to return it. So the voltages are more like 14.2 - 14.5. I'm going on a trip next week, so hopefully might see more interesting behavior.

Where is the current sensor? I can't see anything on either terminal, unless it's hidden somewhere on the -ve cable.

[rondeo]

There's a Varta F18 ($320) on the zetec and a Bond 467 SMF ($270) silver calcium on the LX.

The current sensor is on the negative terminal concealed by the fixed battery cover.

[rondeo]

Original Ford system overview Mondeo 2007.5- (BCM=GEM):

Description and Operation

Smart Regenerative Charging

Smart Regenerative Charging is an intelligent charge control system that calculates and regulates the set generator
voltage.
The basic idea of the system is to increase the generator charge voltage when the vehicle is decelerating and
reduce it when it is accelerating.
This means that during the acceleration phase, there is no additional energy demand as a result of having a high
generator load; however generator load is increased when the vehicle is decelerating.
This strategy enables further fuel savings to be achieved.

Battery Monitoring Sensor

The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the condition of the battery.
The sensor is equipped to vehicles which have Smart Regenerative Charging or Start-Stop. These systems require
knowledge of the battery state of charge. The Battery Monitoring Sensor is the sensor used to provide this
information.

Battery Monitoring Sensor connection

The Battery Monitoring Sensor is clamped directly to the negative terminal of the battery and grounds to the
vehicle at the chassis ground connection point by means of a thick (25 to 35mm2) cable and eyelet. External
customer loads must only be connected to the vehicle at the customer battery connection point. If the external
customer load is connected at the negative battery post, the Battery Monitoring Sensor accuracy cannot be
guaranteed.
It is recommended that the Battery Monitoring Sensor pole clamp is not removed unless a battery replacement is
required. Should the battery need to be isolated, this should be done by disconnecting the ground eyelet at the
chassis ground.

Battery Monitoring Sensor reset

The Battery Monitoring Sensor also estimates losses in the battery capacity over time. The Battery Monitoring
Sensor should be reset to factory default settings, when the battery is replaced.
It is urgently recommended that the replacement battery has the exact same specification as the original battery.
If it does not, the accuracy of the Battery Monitoring Sensor outputs will be compromised.
The Battery Monitoring Sensor reset is part of the battery replacement procedure in IDS (Integrated Diagnostic
System).

[NZ XR6]

Originally Posted by rondeo

There's a Varta F18 ($320) on the zetec and a Bond 467 SMF ($270) silver calcium on the LX.

The current sensor is on the negative terminal concealed by the fixed battery cover.

Hmm. It would be Really Interesting to see what happens if you swap the batteries. I see that the Bond is a silver calcium, but it may not have quite the same characteristics as the OE battery.

I'll see what happens on the trip next week, but I suspect that it will sit between 14 and 14,4 V. I didn't see any sign of the voltage increasing when I coasted a few hundred metres downhill on the motorway, or dropping when accelerating quite briskly.

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

No, if I'm waiting at traffic lights the instantaneous fuel consumption drops by about 0.4 l/hr after maybe 10 seconds. It doesn't always happen, for example if the aircon is on. But there isn't any change in the voltage.

Do you have different batteries in the LX and Zetec?

I've checked the ciggy lighter DVM, which reads 0.23 V high - another reason to return it. So the voltages are more like 14.2 - 14.5. I'm going on a trip next week, so hopefully might see more interesting behavior.

Where is the current sensor? I can't see anything on either terminal, unless it's hidden somewhere on the -ve cable.

Will be interested to hear how yours goes on the trip.

To sum it up volts on my LX ALWAYS rises slightly on rev increase and vice versa. On the zetec its exactly opposite, always falling on increase in revs and rising on deceleration, by quite a significant amount ie down to 13.8 or so from at or near 15V.

[stefcio007]

I've observed quite a bit about the BMS lately.

If the battery is below 80% it will start charging, steadily reducing the current being fed into the battery until it reaches 80%.

Example. If the battery is at 78% it will charge with about 5A. When it's around 67% it will use 20A or more to charge.

When it starts to go above 80% the alternator completely stops charging the battery. The current will swing to about -20A (negative to indicate that current is being drawn FROM the battery). At 80% it will swing to charging and discharging the battery to maintain this 80% charge level. This ensures the battery can last many years as the last 20% of charging to 100% is the most damaging for a battery.

Symptoms of a failing battery is the percentage charge not increasing by much or fluctuating too much between drives and voltage drastically dropping after the vehicle is turned off.

When I replaced my battery with a new one ($130 from Ford Parts Store [E.D]) you HAVE to perform a BMS reset. You can use ForScan to do this via the OBD port. Failure to do this will result in your new battery being charged incorrectly.

The BMS stores battery % charge AND how old the battery is in days. An older battery has to be charged differently from a new one and the system is designed to take this into account.

[rondeo]

Thanks, very informative, hard to believe really!

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by stefcio007

I've observed quite a bit about the BMS lately.

If the battery is below 80% it will start charging, steadily reducing the current being fed into the battery until it reaches 80%.

Example. If the battery is at 78% it will charge with about 5A. When it's around 67% it will use 20A or more to charge.

When it starts to go above 80% the alternator completely stops charging the battery. The current will swing to about -20A (negative to indicate that current is being drawn FROM the battery). At 80% it will swing to charging and discharging the battery to maintain this 80% charge level. This ensures the battery can last many years as the last 20% of charging to 100% is the most damaging for a battery.

Symptoms of a failing battery is the percentage charge not increasing by much or fluctuating too much between drives and voltage drastically dropping after the vehicle is turned off.

When I replaced my battery with a new one ($130 from Ford Parts Store [E.D]) you HAVE to perform a BMS reset. You can use ForScan to do this via the OBD port. Failure to do this will result in your new battery being charged incorrectly.

The BMS stores battery % charge AND how old the battery is in days. An older battery has to be charged differently from a new one and the system is designed to take this into account.

Continuing my attempt to understand smart charge.

Plugged the DVM into the zetec again to verify earlier observations.

Suprised to find the voltage not swinging up and down as before. So have to retract:

'To sum it up volts on my LX ALWAYS rises slightly on rev increase and vice versa. On the zetec its exactly opposite, always falling on increase in revs and rising on deceleration, by quite a significant amount ie down to 13.8 or so from at or near 15V. '

So in a car with a good battery I'm suspecting the SOC cycle
might be slower than I thought, will keep wasting time on it and see.

Forscan on android shows 6 digit figures like 163750 while cranking and 473375 while cruising. Units are described as 'Amper'. Can't makes sense of it.

stefcio007 where did you find the information that the BMS must be reset?
Do you know of information specific to MY2011 TDCi Mondeo?
What did you use to check the current? Thanks.

[stefcio007]

Originally Posted by rondeo

Continuing my attempt to understand smart charge.

Plugged the DVM into the zetec again to verify earlier observations.

Suprised to find the voltage not swinging up and down as before. So have to retract:

'To sum it up volts on my LX ALWAYS rises slightly on rev increase and vice versa. On the zetec its exactly opposite, always falling on increase in revs and rising on deceleration, by quite a significant amount ie down to 13.8 or so from at or near 15V. '

So in a car with a good battery I'm suspecting the SOC cycle
might be slower than I thought, will keep wasting time on it and see.

Forscan on android shows 6 digit figures like 163750 while cranking and 473375 while cruising. Units are described as 'Amper'. Can't makes sense of it.

stefcio007 where did you find the information that the BMS must be reset?
Do you know of information specific to MY2011 TDCi Mondeo?
What did you use to check the current? Thanks.

I use Torque (Android and an OBD reader) with custom PIDs, I checked Mondeo and Focus forums and just tried each PID to see if they worked in my car.
BMS reset is listed as a service procedure in ForScan (used PC version) and in Ford IDS. I assume it's the same for the Mondeo. Do you have an extra sensor on the negative terminal cable attached to the battery? If you do then you have a BMS.

[rondeo]

There's a sensor on the neg battery terminal, all 2007- Mondeos have them, which implies a BMS system.

There is no service function for BMS reset for Mondeo in Forscan.

Not all For dealers agree on the need to reset the system.

What parameters did you set up as custom PIDs in Torque?
Can you link to the thread in the Mondeo forum you mention?

[NZ XR6]

Thanks for this info.

$130 for a new battery???

Sent from my SM-G9208 using Tapatalk

[stefcio007]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

Thanks for this info.

$130 for a new battery???

Sent from my SM-G9208 using Tapatalk

E.D = Employee Discount

[NZ XR6]

Well, no sign of over or under voltage during a 700 km journey. There were slight changes in voltage depending on temperature, so that part of the BMS works as advertised.

Also, it takes a few seconds for the alternator to start charging after engine start, which explains the change in engine noise when cold.

I've also discovered that the weird clicking noise with the engine off is the BMS measuring the charge state of the battery, as the voltage drops when this happens.

But I'm still unsure why the instantaneous fuel consumption drops when waiting at the lights. I can't see how it can be the BMS as there's no change in voltage, unless there ​is a load shedding process that somehow keeps the voltage the same.



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[rondeo]

Last time I enquired at Battery World they didn't have a Yu-Fit device:

http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/resources/yu-fit

but since then they have aquired one.

I was told Yu-Fit is for idle stop start systems only and the Mondeo did not require a BMS reset when the battery is renewed.

Meanwhile Forscan tells me the battery I changed about a year ago is about 6 years old (2200 odd days), which is the age of the car.

On the trip today the zetec's charging voltage suddenly started going up and down as previously noticed, downhill 14.8, uphill 14.4, whereas for the previous 60km it remained steady at various voltages from 14.8 to 14.4.

It takes a few seconds after starting engine for volts to go up as per NZ XR6.

[rondeo]

More talk here:

http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/185-...ere-s-why.html

[NZ XR6]

Originally Posted by rondeo

More talk here:

http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/185-...ere-s-why.html

Hmm, I get this message when I click on the link:

Sorry. The administrator has banned your IP address. To contact the administrator click here

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

Hmm, I get this message when I click on the link:

Sorry. The administrator has banned your IP address. To contact the administrator click here

Sometimes ad blocking causes it.

Here's the youtube video embedded in the Taurus forum post:

https://youtu.be/FAJeDX-T-Eg