W427 = profitable??

[kezzer]

http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...f_w427_program

Even if we had have built 125, the program would still have been a financial success, leaving aside the brand benefits and engineering know-how the W427 program has brought to HSV.

Is this for real? I swear I read somewhere they lost money?

I call BS, anyone else?

[Mr Brooksy]

What! I heard the same thing you did kezzer. How could they have made cash on a handful of custom HSV's that needed the front end redesigned to fit the LS9??? (cant remember if it was the same donk as the current Vette).

[Iggypoppin']

LS7 I think it was.

[SB076]

I wouldnt think it matters, they may have have made money on the project or they might not - however if they didnt they could use a bit of creative accounting to show that they did (ie attributing costs to a different project, allocation of overheads, I am sure there are lots of other things they could do too)

[RedHotGT]

Well really its simple maths....

137 vehicles @ $155,000 a pop = $21,235,000.

Not sure if they released the cost / development of the vehicle - but thats the raw figures...

I remember them saying that there was going to be 427, then 200, then 150....

But thats what the editorials and sales guys are for.... they always say they're going to sell HEAPS of cars...

Look at the Force 6 / Force 8 range... I'll bet that FPV planned on selling more than 100 of each of those...

What about the T-series TL range??? 58 total cars over 3 years....

It can go both ways I suppose.... It might make the above mentioned cars more 'desirable' in the future.... but at the end of the day - they were unloved to start with!! Ugly ducklings.... who may (or may not) turn out to be good one day...

Time will tell....

[Fev]

From what i can tell Harding means financial sucess through the development, techniques and knowledge they have learn't through the process of creating the W427.

Development costs can be astronomical and the skill's they've learn through making the W427 would be invaluable.

[T3ts50]

R+D funds gone into W427 have now also gone into E2, so I dont doubt it was profitable.

[Dave R]

Old news.

I can believe it. $155k for a Commodore (!), the only difference being the bigger engine and minor cosmetics like front bumper and wheels.

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Old news.

I can believe it. $155k for a Commodore (!), the only difference being the bigger engine and minor cosmetics like front bumper and wheels.

I'm petty sure almost every car part you could think of was upgraded on the W427.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

I'm petty sure almost every car part you could think of was upgraded on the W427.

Yeah, but to the tune of $155k? Seriously, the basic Commodore I've read is something like 20 grand to manufacture, then you start adding bits and pieces for the sports/luxury models. Now I don't imagine that R&D (which I've read was mainly spent on MRC recalibration) + the 7.0L + the other goodies end up costing more than $155,000 PER car. Remember, they sold 137 of these things! That's $21,235,000. Yes twenty one MILLION dollars. I doubt the costs associated with developing and manufacturing the W427 amounted to more than $21 mil.

[CFOUR]

They should have made a 427 ute, that would have been special.

[trippytaka]

I don't know... that's really stumpe me. I guess there really wasn't all that much developmnt... A few things I am thinking of:

- Would the crash tests of a the standard Common-whore been used, or did they have to crash the 427 cars as is?

- How much engine development would have been needed to meet ADR emmisions for such a big lug?

- The suspension etc would be pretty standard, not too much $ there.

- How much develpoment was needed in driveline?

Thinking about it, the man hours (designing etc), the marketing, wouldn't have aded up to 21m. Interesting. Certainly food for thought.

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by trippytaka

I don't know... that's really stumpe me. I guess there really wasn't all that much developmnt... A few things I am thinking of:

- Would the crash tests of a the standard Common-whore been used, or did they have to crash the 427 cars as is?

- How much engine development would have been needed to meet ADR emmisions for such a big lug?

- The suspension etc would be pretty standard, not too much $ there.

- How much develpoment was needed in driveline?

Thinking about it, the man hours (designing etc), the marketing, wouldn't have aded up to 21m. Interesting. Certainly food for thought.

I think the answer would actually be more than 21m. It's the getting bumper right so as not to hurt pedestrians in a collision, it's whether the dry sump explodes when having a frontal collision, it's the durability testing for the clutch and whether it shudders after 15 hard launches..... Ford got it wrong with the f6 manual on launch - look at how they were hammered for the clutch failures in the press cars. Testing and compliance costs a lot more than most think. For example - how much do you think it costs all up to hire a track for a day privately, take 2 or 3 test cars out there, and then pay for a few v8sc drivers and a heap of engineers to try things out? And that would be just 1 day. Add everything up and i see 21m going very fast to go very fast!

[tex]

Originally Posted by trippytaka

I don't know... that's really stumpe me. I guess there really wasn't all that much developmnt... A few things I am thinking of:

- Would the crash tests of a the standard Common-whore been used, or did they have to crash the 427 cars as is?

- How much engine development would have been needed to meet ADR emmisions for such a big lug?

- The suspension etc would be pretty standard, not too much $ there.

- How much develpoment was needed in driveline?

Thinking about it, the man hours (designing etc), the marketing, wouldn't have aded up to 21m. Interesting. Certainly food for thought.

There's no food for thought there, all there is is dribble from someone NFI.

[Iggypoppin']

Don't forget the badge...

[Charliewool]

R&D tax benefits aren't too shabby either!!

"R&D Tax Concession is a broad-based, market driven tax concession which allows companies to deduct up to 125% of qualifying expenditure incurred on R&D activities when lodging their corporate tax return. A 175% Incremental (Premium) Tax Concession and R&D Tax Offset are also available in certain circumstances."

[cs123]

Just imagine if Ford had attempted a project like this, we would be singing their praises.

I think good on HSV for having a crack at it regardless of whether they made/lost money.

[FPV8U]

Was/is a great car, albeit a bit overpriced, but good to see atleast one Australian performance car company having a crack.

[GTP owner]

It was far more than just an engine and cosmetics - the brakes, cooling systems, MRC, clutch, gearbox, fuel system, etc. If it were a ford i would have bought it. I still think about getting one (black one on carsales yes please). The are the pinnacle of modern muscle cars. And before anyone says their tuned f6 will whip it - try a 10 lap sprint race. By lap 3 the f6 would have overheated and lost the brakes.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

It was far more than just an engine and cosmetics - the brakes, cooling systems, MRC, clutch, gearbox, fuel system, etc. If it were a ford i would have bought it. I still think about getting one (black one on carsales yes please). The are the pinnacle of modern muscle cars. And before anyone says their tuned f6 will whip it - try a 10 lap sprint race. By lap 3 the f6 would have overheated and lost the brakes.

Dont try to rationalise with the experts, they "know it all" about this program and car.
HSV didnt make money on this car, but the car was a success..... and its FAR more than a motor, bumper and badge..

[tex]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

It was far more than just an engine and cosmetics - the brakes, cooling systems, MRC, clutch, gearbox, fuel system, etc. If it were a ford i would have bought it. I still think about getting one (black one on carsales yes please). The are the pinnacle of modern muscle cars. And before anyone says their tuned f6 will whip it - try a 10 lap sprint race. By lap 3 the f6 would have overheated and lost the brakes.

Settle......

But I agree by the way.

It (w427) didn't 'make' money, but it did produce a lot of unquantifiable returns on the investment. Halo product it is, without doubt.

Kudos to GMH, they have a go, and the fan base reflects this.

Todays wannabe, often become tomorrows buyer.

Take note FPV.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

It was far more than just an engine and cosmetics - the brakes, cooling systems, MRC, clutch, gearbox, fuel system, etc. If it were a ford i would have bought it. I still think about getting one (black one on carsales yes please). The are the pinnacle of modern muscle cars. And before anyone says their tuned f6 will whip it - try a 10 lap sprint race. By lap 3 the f6 would have overheated and lost the brakes.

Hmmm...

Having ACTUALLY DONE several sprints of 15, 20 and 30 laps on various tracks in a BA2 F6 fitted with RE50s, I never ran out of brakes nor overheated the engine.

I did manage to boil the diff once at QLD Raceway on a stinking hot day but so did several other cars and that was after 25 laps.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

Hmmm...

Having ACTUALLY DONE several sprints of 15, 20 and 30 laps on various tracks in a BA2 F6 fitted with RE50s, I never ran out of brakes nor overheated the engine.

I did manage to boil the diff once at QLD Raceway on a stinking hot day but so did several other cars and that was after 25 laps.

no no no, you're letting the facts ruin a good story.

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by flappist

Hmmm...

Having ACTUALLY DONE several sprints of 15, 20 and 30 laps on various tracks in a BA2 F6 fitted with RE50s, I never ran out of brakes nor overheated the engine.

I did manage to boil the diff once at QLD Raceway on a stinking hot day but so did several other cars and that was after 25 laps.

You weren't trying hard enough!
I destroy my gtp brakes after 5 hard laps, and would love to be abvle to give it more.
My point is that trying to call it just a motor upgrade that an aftermarket tuned f6 will beat is like saying the gtho ph3 was just a bigger camshaft and carby on a gs falcon.....hang on, that's what it is! Yet we get so misty eyed over the gtho and pay stupid amounts for it because it was the pinnacle of engineering at the time, as is the wd40

[XDV800]

Moot point overall, it never came to fruition so who knows what sort of a sucess it MIGHT have been.
Was just a pretty picture presented to teacher that didn't fit the image of HSV's budget performance car mould.
An M5/C63 would have thrashed it i reckon...Discuss.

[tex]

Originally Posted by yzfr101

Moot point overall, it never came to fruition so who knows what sort of a sucess it MIGHT have been.
Was just a pretty picture presented to teacher that didn't fit the image of HSV's budget performance car mould.
An M5/C63 would have thrashed it i reckon...Discuss.

No no no!


You miss the point.

This car was conceived in Australia.

It was assembled in Australia. All be it with lots and lots of over seas components, it was (and is) a damn fine ROAD car.

Let's not drag the C63, or the dearer M5, or the RS4 into this discussion, they cannot be compared,

Why not???????

because those afformentioned vehicle have been designed, R & D'd, , manufactured, and marketed on a vastly LARGER playing field.

Who's got the biggest developement buget, AMG, BMW, Audi, HSV????

You'd have to be a bit of a rock brain to pick HSV wouldn't you.....

[XR6_190]

Originally Posted by yzfr101

Moot point overall, it never came to fruition so who knows what sort of a sucess it MIGHT have been.
Was just a pretty picture presented to teacher that didn't fit the image of HSV's budget performance car mould.
An M5/C63 would have thrashed it i reckon...Discuss.

What drugs are you on? HSV built and sold over 100 of the ugly things.

[XDV800]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

What drugs are you on? HSV built and sold over 100 of the ugly things.

MY MISTAKE I GOT IT MIXED UP WITH THE 427 MONARO FROM A FEW YEARS BACK.

:togo:

[FPV8U]

Not to mention it did come through with well over 100 Sold..

Wait until someone throws a Decent OTRCAI, Exhaust and a Cam that has some lumps in it, those things are a monster waiting to be awoken and it won't cost 10K for 35hp like alot of the Euros.

[XRtowcar]

The way GM builds cars lately they hardly seemed worried if they make a profit on anything. Can always get the US government to throw in some more cash.