Towing

AWD Chaser · 05-02-2006, 09:58 AM

Just an experiance this weekend I thought I might share with you.

I had to go pickup a newly aquired car on the weekend and tow it back to my place.

Well, on Friday I had to get my towbar fitted that I got off ebay. Turned out the one I got from ebay is for a factory gas only!!! So the towbar guy swung a deal and took that off my hands and fitted a proper one for $170.

Then there was the towing. Check out this picture!!!

There was the slight problem that when towing it up Brown Mountain, it was soooo low, that I started smoking from the back - and when I looked - the exhaust was melting my bumper cause the bumper was just pushing down on top of the exhaust!

So when towing heavy loads, avoid steep hills!

FYI: My temp gauge NEVER went past the O in NORMAL.

Also, if you want to watch the restoration of the HZ: check out www.holdenhz.com

JC · 05-02-2006, 12:02 PM

Actually, the lesson is not to avoid steep hills - the lesson is to balance your load correctly. If you turned the car being towed around, the engine would sit past the wheels on the trailer at the back, helping to level the load towards the back of the car. I hope you used a 2300kg hitch to tow that lot - a 1600kg will do it, but not very often, and I wouldn't want to be behind you! You may also find a load levelling kit is required for your car if you tow loads like that a lot. It stops the back of the car squatting down so much.

LUXO_8 · 05-02-2006, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

Actually, the lesson is not to avoid steep hills - the lesson is to balance your load correctly. If you turned the car being towed around, the engine would sit past the wheels on the trailer at the back, helping to level the load towards the back of the car.

this is often a misconception, but its VERY dangerous..

you should always have the engine towards the front.......otherwise you'll cause the trailer to sway..... think about it,
---the way it is there, its causing the back of the car to sit down, because the front of the trailer is pushed down with the weight of the engine......
---if it was the other way around, the back of teh trailer will be forced down with the weight of the engine, lifting the front,of the trailer and thus lifting the rear of the car......

i can see EXACTLY what the problem was in that pic.... the car is too far forward on the trailer...... if he had it positioned back about a foot and a half, the load would be far better balanced

jonbays · 05-02-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MADNC_8

this is often a misconception, but its VERY dangerous..

you should always have the engine towards the front.......otherwise you'll cause the trailer to sway..... think about it,
---the way it is there, its causing the back of the car to sit down, because the front of the trailer is pushed down with the weight of the engine......
---if it was the other way around, the back of teh trailer will be forced down with the weight of the engine, lifting the front,of the trailer and thus lifting the rear of the car......

i can see EXACTLY what the problem was in that pic.... the car is too far forward on the trailer...... if he had it positioned back about a foot and a half, the load would be far better balanced

MADNC_8 is spot on here. I used to own a wreckers yard and towed more cars than I want to remember with an assortment of F****D cars, utes and trailers and you do want the engine up the front. Balancing the load is important too though some weight on the towbar is good too much is bad. I found for me I would just move the car up and down the trailer so the drawbar can be lifted onto the towbar just with one hand. Now the trailer will follow the car and the cars brakes and steering sort of work.

AWD Chaser · 05-02-2006, 02:18 PM

Cool. Thanks for your input guys. Prob was is we had it about a foot back and the ИИИИ of the car stuck out too much so we moved it forward and it made no difference to how low the back of my car already was.

LUXO_8 · 05-02-2006, 02:20 PM

doesnt matter if the cars butt is sticking out off the trailer so long as the wheels are still on it..... ive towed numerous cars behind my fairlane with the back wheelsof the car just on the trailer to get a good balance. if you have it tied down propperly, it wont move an inch.

if it made no difference, either your shocks are stuffed or springs are too soft......

JC · 05-02-2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MADNC_8

this is often a misconception, but its VERY dangerous..

you should always have the engine towards the front.......otherwise you'll cause the trailer to sway..... think about it,
---the way it is there, its causing the back of the car to sit down, because the front of the trailer is pushed down with the weight of the engine......
---if it was the other way around, the back of teh trailer will be forced down with the weight of the engine, lifting the front,of the trailer and thus lifting the rear of the car......

i can see EXACTLY what the problem was in that pic.... the car is too far forward on the trailer...... if he had it positioned back about a foot and a half, the load would be far better balanced

My bad. Your overall point is what I was also trying to make. Better Balance. On reflection, I can see why it would be important to have the weight FACING forwards, but distributed evenly over the trailer.

Jonbays - the one hand lift is exactly what we used to determine the right position of the wheels on our boat trailer. You can lift the whole 1680kg using one hand (with effort) to position it on the tow bar. Obviously the back of the car still squats a bit, but nowhere near as bid as au3 chasers.

Steve_T · 05-02-2006, 09:52 PM

I think it's also a good lesson in why to not lower your car. (prolly get flamed for that

)

Also as has been mentioned - if you do this in the future a load levelling hitch would be the go - even if not strictly needed it will make a _big_ difference to how the car sits and how well it tows (stability etc.)

LUXO_8 · 05-02-2006, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_T

I think it's also a good lesson in why to not lower your car. (prolly get flamed for that

)

im not going to flame you for the comment, but its wrong... my NC is lowered and it tows fine........as 1 mentioned before, its all in balanceing the load.....it doesnt matter if the car is 7" lower or 6" higher than factory

AWD Chaser · 05-02-2006, 11:02 PM

Quote:

either your shocks are stuffed or springs are too soft

Nope, sorry - shocks are only 20,000k's old and they are actaully stiffer then stock.

I mean, it is a BIG OLD HEAVY V8 after all, plus the trailer itself was very heavy too.

I never knew of these load balancing kits though.

Does anyone know how a torque converter affects towing? Better, worse?

JC · 05-02-2006, 11:10 PM

If your car is an auto, it already has a torque converter, so not sure what you mean by your last question.

LUXO_8 · 05-02-2006, 11:17 PM

and a ZH Fairlane with a 351 isnt heavy? towing that car my car sat DEAD even..... the rear wheels of it couldnt have been any further back on the rear of the trailer (which was heavy as well - a good 700 / 800kg)... - i'd purchased a leveling kit to tow that car because i thought it'd look like yours but i left it in its box as it wasnt needed.... which is where it sits even still...

that was with my car lowered as it is now, pedders lows and stock monroe GT shocks

Steve_T · 05-02-2006, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MADNC_8

im not going to flame you for the comment, but its wrong... my NC is lowered and it tows fine........as 1 mentioned before, its all in balanceing the load.....it doesnt matter if the car is 7" lower or 6" higher than factory

Yeah, was having a dig as much as anything - lowering done properly is fine to tow with but it will affect it after a certain point - lower car means less travel and less room to sag after all and body/exhaust etc. will be closer to hitting ground over rough roads/obstacles, but yeah, depends how often and how big a load you tow of course as to whats appropriate - balance and correct towball weight (downforce) is the key like you say - towing 1-2 tonnes is same sorta thing as throwing 100-200kg worth of gear in the boot roughly speaking.

re. the torque converter, if you mean is an auto (w/ torque converter) better for towing than a manual (with clutch) then yeah, it is. Auto box being a planetary gear setup is generally stronger than a manual and torque converters do a good job of taking the load as you start to move off and gradually transferring that load from engine through to drive train without being harsh on any part of the car - it's kinda like a hydraulic damper. Clutches are a week point with manuals when towing 'cause the only way to gradually transfer a big load through them without any harshness is to slip/feather the clutch which under load will overheat and wear it, but like anything it also comes down to driving skill/style also as far as what you can safely do with a given setup before things get damaged.

blackers10 · 06-02-2006, 06:28 AM

ive read somewhere that automatic transmissions aka torque converter'd cars
have so much more initial torque because of the way the fluid moves inside the converter.. and as said can bring the car upto speed easily without heating up the clutch.. (good for hills)

the only BAD thing about trailer towing with an auto is having to use the brake more to slow down down hills (cunninghams gap out near warwick QLD? and the big dipper heading thru the central coast NSW)

as a manual has so many more options for using engine compression braking
where as the autos REALLY dont like it.

the WORST thing to do is to drive a car trailer with or without a load.. along a concrete highway.. at 100kmh.. the car just seesaws.. as the car then the trailer hits the joins in the concrete slabs..(pacific highway)

always good fun

we towed a trailer once that had spray painted markings on it that had a line where the front axle was and said 75% weight over the front 35% over the back or somthing like that..

worst thing about LOW CARS being loaded ONTO trailers is A) they hit the ground.. B) they hit the join between ramp and trailer.. C) you have to climb out the window as the door hits the surround bit..

good fun

im led to believe a load level kit increases your towing capacity by 500kg? very comon on caravans...work great ive been told and seen

**Mechan1k** · 06-02-2006, 11:51 AM

Stiffer springs in the rear help with towing heavy loads ... also the adjustable airbags in the rear can help when towing really heavy stuff.

I found after fitting the LOWER heavier duty rear leaves in the ute that it can handle towing the horse float much better than it used to.

I'd only use a 2300kg kit for towing vehicles ... just to be on the safe side.
I didn't know there was a specialised towing kit for the EGAS models ... although I know it doesn't like to tow anything too heavy .. it's just gutless.

Manual Falcon can only tow a maximum of 1200kg from memory ... autos can take 1600-2300kg (depending on the hitch used).

If you have a heavy load like a car on a car trailer ... if the load starts swaying ... SLOW DOWN ... I'd never get up to 100km/h if I was towing such a load ... I don't really go over 80km/h when towing horses either. It's just safer to travel that little bit slower.

Ringo · 06-02-2006, 01:59 PM

All these points for towing are spot on. Positioning of the weight is critical.

Can tell you a story of a V8 Discovery owner who picked up his caravan after some running repairs where made to at a workshop. Caravan and Disco where empty of gear except the rear storage compartment of the caravan where the annex was stored, poles, canvas ropes etc. Without load 'the rig' was getting along at 100k's easily on the freeway home until a cross wind stated the pendulum effect on the van. Driver braked to slow down which made the pendulum effect worse. Ended up with a flipped and destroyed van, a Disco on its side, a driver with a lucky escape story and a lesson for the rest of us.

On auto's I have been told that it is good practice to tow in 3rd over 4th. 3rd is a 1:1 ratio and the torque convertor will still lock up. This will take nearly all the load off the trans gears because it all turning as one unit. Also and lessen the chances of it overheating as 4th is an overdrive and prolonged periods of heavy towing may cause it to build up heat and cook. Heat is an auto's most common enemy as we all know which is why a decent auto cooler should be seen as an investment rather than an accesorie

Now before people jump down my throat and take stabs at my comments this is good practice only - not a law, rule or even a recomendation from the manufacturers - Just something thought up by fella's rebuilding cooked 95LE's when BW35's seem to cope fine towing the same van...

AWD Chaser · 06-02-2006, 05:48 PM

Sorry - my mistake - what i meant by torque converter was stall converter. Having one of these fitted, how does it affect towing.

Baboon_AU · 06-02-2006, 09:45 PM

i wouldn't do it, too jumpy, not good for load. IMO

LUXO_8 · 06-02-2006, 09:50 PM

i reckon a higher stall torque converter wouldnt be too bad for towing with... would be good to put the car at peak torque as the trans is being engaged......you'd want a good trans cooler but!
if you planned on towing a lot, you'd whack ya car on the dyno, find out where its making peak torque and get a converter suitable for that.....

a lot of the older inter trucks with smallish V8's (small for a truck - 400 chevs and the like) and F100 banana-back towtrucks have fairly high stalls, you can hear it as they're taking off, so it mustnt be a bad thing to have for towing...

HLC · 06-02-2006, 10:24 PM

: the AU looks like this green p-plater's VX (dunno the proper model) statesman i saw once. obviously his airbags at the rear were having problems.

: looked ridiculous.

Steve_T · 07-02-2006, 02:52 AM

Ringo, yeah 3rd gear is the go for towing with the auto - and the AU (owner's) manual actually recommends that too.

blackers10 - nah, it's a common misconception that a load leveling kit can increase a vehicles towing capacity - it can't. But whatever load you are towing will sit better behind the car and be a lot more stable, better balanced and safer to tow with a kit.

blackers10 · 07-02-2006, 03:00 AM

thanks for that correction Steve T

AWD Chaser · 07-02-2006, 11:10 AM

Yeah, 3rd was ok, but i just decided (with the trailer unloaded) that it pulled just fine at 90K's in D instead of 90 or 100 in 3rd.

The only time i started getting freaked out was when I came around a steep corner (in 1st of course) and then started to put my foot down again at 30k's and it just didn't want to climb. That really freaked me. But then it just started eding upwards (RPM).

Mack 6 · 07-02-2006, 11:52 AM

As a recovery mechanic, my trailer is fine with up to 20 ton on it, but the same principles apply. The aim is to get the centre of gravity of the car over the centre of gravity of the trailer to balance.... more often than not it's a case of only being able to do it with the car facing forwards. Saying that. I HAD to put a car on backwards and it drove great the other weekend... although I hated it because it was hot and I had to do it by myself.
The other thing is please restrain the car properly. I've seen some shocking examples in the past and am surprised that there isn't more incidents. I'm in the process of preparing a powerpoint presentation for trucks but will modify it for cars sometime soon.