Diesel Rules

[russellw]

While reading through my annual report from the BITRE (), I came across the little morsel shown in the graph below:



Basically, for the first time since detailed records were kept, the consumption of diesel fuel exceeded that of petrol - 19,043.9 megalitres against 18,643.6 megalitres. It had been closing the gap steadily since 1985 but accelerated rapidly from about 2004 onwards.

Equally interesting to note the relatively low LPG use at just over 2,000 megalitres and the fact that after small but steady improvements up to 2004 it has been in slow decline since - seen a little more clearly in the chart below.



That 2,000 megalitres represents just over 5% of the total fuel used for vehicles (not counting marine and industrial fuels).

Cheers
Russ

[1TUFFUTE]

maybe ford should have developed the diesel for the falcon aswell....although we knew that allready....

[chevypower]

Why? Basic rule of economics is that when demand increases.....

[302 XC]

Ever tried running a big 4x4 on petrol ???
Let me tell ya , the diesels are near half the cost
Whats a big seller ???
SUVs and 4x4s

[cheap]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

Ever tried running a big 4x4 on petrol ???
Let me tell ya , the diesels are near half the cost
Whats a big seller ???
SUVs and 4x4s

It comes down to total cost of ownership. It is disingenuous to only compare the price of fuel and claim "diesels are near half the cost"

Most diesel engines are an extra cost option, even the new Territory diesel costs thousands more than its petrol equivalent. Add higher servicing and maintenance costs plus diesel is more expensive than petrol (it was on Sunday night). And it takes many many many thousands of kilometres to just break even.

I personally do not see the point of having to do +200,000 kms just to break even, and I tend to sell my cars @ 100,000 km's or 5 years.

If anything, the chart tells me that it is probable (due to the corrupt nature of the oil cartels) that diesel will continue to be priced higher than petrol.

I can not for the life of me understand why successive governments haven't taken advantage of Australia's vast LPG gas reserves and encouraged (mandated) the switch to widespread use of LPG, the current government has actually accelerated the disincentive to LPG!

[1TUFFUTE]

your missing a huuuge point here.....that gragh proves that if ford had got on the ban wagon earlier it would have made gains in the diesel market now and earlier when it was more profitable. having no diesel means you cant even pinch a tiny bit of the market...cus you have none

[Gobes32]

Has me buggered how LPG is not more popular. Converted my car last year and instead of $50 of petrol I am using $30 of LPG each week.

[Hulsty]

Does that graph include industrial use of fuels?

[DJR-351]

I can go anywhere in Australia and buy Diesel, not so with LPG and in some cases not even petrol...........

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Has me buggered how LPG is not more popular. Converted my car last year and instead of $50 of petrol I am using $30 of LPG each week.

This. Although I suspect it could be due to the lack of decent factory options. And lets face it, decent SVI and LPI systems have only been widely available for the past few years and the only way you'd know about them is if you chased the info yourself.

[The G6ET Spot]

Diesel use has been steadily increasing over the past 10 years.

May be the reason why it used to be 10c/l cheaper than petrol but is now dearer.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by cheap

It comes down to total cost of ownership. It is disingenuous to only compare the price of fuel and claim "diesels are near half the cost"

Yes.

But...

I haven't done any serious maths but if I did (or perhaps you might) I expect the numbers would start to make sense to people financing cars and what they have to lay out each week. A couple of thousand on the top of a new car when it is financed (particularly those who whack it on their house) would be less than the the fuel saving on larger vehicles - such as 4x4's.

Look at a new Prado GXL - petrol RRP $63404, td RRP 64404. Now in this case, the extra thousand bucks will come back pretty quickly but it is even more appealing under finance.

$63404 on 60 months with 50% residual costs $960 - for an additional $3.50 a week, you can have the diesel variant. By the time you get home from the dealer, you're in front. Then comes resale...

I don't know the servicing cost differential but I expect that servicing costs are less considered than fuel as an example.

I'd be interested if anyone has correct numbers to work it out.

[Mr Hardware]

When you've got Johnny Truckdriver filling up with 600L of diesel each day it's no surprise there's so much diesel consumed in Australia.

This high usage of diesel is no argument for using diesel in a passenger car.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

This. Although I suspect it could be due to the lack of decent factory options. And lets face it, decent SVI and LPI systems have only been widely available for the past few years and the only way you'd know about them is if you chased the info yourself.

My system is only a mixer on a EL Fairmont, and I have no complaints, in fact, I can't wait to drive an FG with the liquid injection and 6 spd auto.

[Polyal]

if they Gov had any balls, which is doesn't (Julia?) it would heavily back both Holden and Ford with LPG. We seem happy to export it for stuff all but charge Australians a premium to use it, go figure.

We have some great products here that need more support, the fact that an excise is going on LPG next year (apparently) is a joke. They give with one hand and take away with the other.

Im a diesel convert myself (dont own but would look at it when the time comes), but I will always go for LPG given the current status of costs etc.

Damn Ford for not having ECOLpi in the Terry, Id go that before the diesel.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

When you've got Johnny Truckdriver filling up with 600L of diesel each day it's no surprise there's so much diesel consumed in Australia.

This high usage of diesel is no argument for using diesel in a passenger car.

I'm not suggesting it is - but as the rate of diesel use has increased faster than the growth in heavy vehicles and we know that the percentage of diesel passenger vehicles has been climbing rapidly these last few years it is indicative of a buyer trend that any manufacturer can ignore at their peril.

Originally Posted by Hulsty

Does that graph include industrial use of fuels?

No it doesn't - it would be considerably higher if it did.

Cheers
Russ

[Hulsty]

I am not surprised in the increase of use for the domestic market. There are a large number of diesel vehicles now that offer low running costs and excellent fuel consumption.

A guy at my old work had a VW turbo diesel, he was averaging less than 5L/100km and it was a decent onroad performer!!


I am myself a diesel convert, though I have a very old tech one. I have a land cruiser with a all mechanical diesel engine with origins back in the 60s/70s and I get around 680km to 75L fuel daily driving with big tyres and tare over 2300kg and it still has good performance to boot. Previously I had the exact same car in petrol/gas configuration (always a compromise) and it used ~25L/100km on LPG!! it went nowhere near as well as my turbo diesel and guzzled the fuel.

[grey_esp]

It always suprises me why when people compare the "cost of owning diesel" compared to petrol they disregard resale. They always mention the cost to purchase as being higher and service (which I would think in a modern diesel would be almost the same as petrol) but ignore the fact that diesel resale is generally much, much better than petrol.

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by russellw

I'm not suggesting it is - but as the rate of diesel use has increased faster than the growth in heavy vehicles and we know that the percentage of diesel passenger vehicles has been climbing rapidly these last few years it is indicative of a buyer trend that any manufacturer can ignore at their peril.

Yep fair call. I suppose a clever manufacturer doesn't ignore the masses even if their wants are somewhat misdirected.

I also find it quite odd that despite the LPG rebate being introduced in late 2006, LPG usage has actually declined!
Perhaps it's hybrids cutting in on the taxi market?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Yep fair call. I suppose a clever manufacturer doesn't ignore the masses even if their wants are somewhat misdirected.

I also find it quite odd that despite the LPG rebate being introduced in late 2006, LPG usage has actually declined!
Perhaps it's hybrids cutting in on the taxi market?

Could people be getting Diesel vehicles rather then LPG? Especially since more cars are probably available with Diesel straight out of the factory then come with LPG.

I'm assuming fitting LPG to a new non-LPG car would mean no more warrenty.

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Could people be getting Diesel vehicles rather then LPG? Especially since more cars are probably available with Diesel straight out of the factory then come with LPG.

I'm assuming fitting LPG to a new non-LPG car would mean no more warrenty.

Wrong the only reason it will negate warranty is if they can prove the fitment of LPG caused the failure which would be a hard task given there is no power or torque increase and LPG actually creates less oil contaminants than petrol. Look under the rocker cover of a car that has only run on LPG for 100 000Ks and the same with petrol and you'll see what I mean

[The Yeti]

My work car is diesel and I love it, its torquey as hell, the days of the slugish, smokey old diesel car are long gone.

coinsidently my wife hates it, she doesnt like the noise and she hates the way the bowzers are always covered in diesel slime, that and the hi flow spraying all over her clothes the other day sort of sealed her dislike.


My XP is on LPG and well what can I say to drive to Canberra, cruize all weekend and drive home for under $50.00 is sensational being the old XP ran on Super (leaded petrol for the youngsters) LPG is actualy hi octain compared to regular pump ULP so my car runs better on LPG than conventional ULP, Ive since discontinued use of that parts cleaning solution we call petrol and adjusted the tune to be LPG only and I love it.

on that same note the engine in my chev is being built for straight LPG, just a simple Impco 425 on a singel plane manifold, LPG performance cam and distributor advance curve and again over regular ULP it will be a good performer and cruzin at a lower cost.

Why people havent made the switch, is it the perception that LPG powered cars are slugish? is it that you need to be licensed to work on it? is it the lugage space the cyclinders take up? I really dont know

I'm a licenced repairer / installer so that one doesnt effect me, as for slugish ive never driven an LPG powered vehicel that after correct tuning didnt perform quite well, to the point where the difference between LPG and petrol was negligable. the only issue is the cylinder and if we are talking a project build this can be addressed as well. the only negative from my point of view is the ugly little red tags we need to place on our number plates

[302 XC]

LPG consumes upto 30% more volume than petrol
So with the 1.6K government subsidy (IF still valid)
Youll still have to shell out upwards of 2K or even more,depending
2K is alot of petrol
So wether paying extra for the diesel on the new car or converting to LPG on an oldie,it depends how long you own it for and how many Ks you do
Wether the costs are relevant
My 1997 Nissan Patrol GQ 4.2 petrol uses 25L/100Ks
Yep more than a worked 351 !!!!!
This is the same as every other 4.2 petrol GQ
The same 4.2 diesel in a GQ will get around 12-15L/100Ks
So twice as much on petrol as the diesel equvilent isnt far of
6 years ago diesel was a bit cheaper then petrol,hence why my other patrol was a diesel (GU 2.8)
But the unreliability of the 2.8 GU motor and the extravigant costs to repair it
(They have head gasket and cracking head issues)
This time i went a 4.2 petrol
Heaps more power,heaps more fuel,but alot more reliable

There are now people LPG ing diesels
For what i really dont know
Diesels are around 20:1 comp ratio
LPG can run in an engine that high
All the high comp petrol engines could really benefit from LPG
There are some very quick 1/4 mile runners running straight LPG

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

Why people havent made the switch, is it the perception that LPG powered cars are slugish?

This vvv

is it the lugage space the cyclinders take up?

Plus Today Tonight showing LPG taxis which had been poorly looked after catching on fire.
Why people don't want the power and room of a large car with fuel costs which are cheaper than a small buzz box on petrol is beyond me as well.
My personal experience saw us own my EL and borrow the in-laws 2000ish 1.8L Corolla. We left the Corolla at home all the time as it was cheaper to drive the EL. Now, the diesel Peugeot has seen us have similar fuel costs on a cents per kilometre basis, so not sure what the next car will be. LPG or Diesel?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

There are now people LPG ing diesels
For what i really dont know
Diesels are around 20:1 comp ratio
LPG can run in an engine that high
All the high comp petrol engines could really benefit from LPG
There are some very quick 1/4 mile runners running straight LPG

Yeah those diesel LPG conversions are just 'fogging' systems, not running a diesel on straight LPG.

Also, with liquid injection LPG, the efficiency loss you would normally experience LPG V Petrol, would be as little as 5%.

When I got my car converted was when the full monty of govt rebates still existed and I had an $1800 gap to cover. That was paid for in a year.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

When you've got Johnny Truckdriver filling up with 600L of diesel each day it's no surprise there's so much diesel consumed in Australia.

This high usage of diesel is no argument for using diesel in a passenger car.

I personally have used about 2500L of diesel in the past 2 days. Glad I not paying for it though!

[irish2]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

Wrong the only reason it will negate warranty is if they can prove the fitment of LPG caused the failure which would be a hard task given there is no power or torque increase and LPG actually creates less oil contaminants than petrol. Look under the rocker cover of a car that has only run on LPG for 100 000Ks and the same with petrol and you'll see what I mean

My petrol daily has ~301000km on the clock. It is perfect under the rocker cover, as it should be with 7500k oil changes.

[Road_Warrior]

Just one more benefit of not burning hydrocarbons in your engine.

[stev3n]

I did the maths two years ago on a petrol landcruiser vs a diesel cruiser,($10 000 dearer), you had to do THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND KILOMETERS before you broke even, purely based on fuel economy.
My sums didn't include the diesel resale advantage, but at the same time the sums didn't include the servicing costs ($150 - petrol vs $250-$800 diesel).

Not many people buy a brand new 'cruiser then keep it for 300 000km.

Probably best to buy a second hand diesel rather than a new one if you a worried about running costs.

The average guy does about 20 000 km per year, so if you are going to keep your cruiser for more than 15 years (300 000km /20 000km) you have the chance to save break even, (provided you don't finance your purchase).

But ,hey if someone was going to give me a cruiser I'd take the diesel over petrol any day.

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Yep fair call. I suppose a clever manufacturer doesn't ignore the masses even if their wants are somewhat misdirected.

I also find it quite odd that despite the LPG rebate being introduced in late 2006, LPG usage has actually declined!

I don't find it odd at all.


LPG still has the Taxi/Unreliable/Blowing-up/boot-space-thief stigma.

Diesel has none of the above... it has its own problems (dirty pumps, noise) that are seen as less important.

I would take a diesel over a LPG powered vehicle any day, personally...