So turbo or supercharger?

robbyj · 02-07-2010, 08:52 PM

This is just for some thoughts/opinions of people of what they think is better.
I have been half thinking of late.. to "wack" a turbo on my car. So i have been doing a little research. Now being on green P's in vic is no fun in the engine department as you basically cant touch it.
So when my probationary run is over if i still plan to keep my AU.. i would possibly contemplate a turbo/supercharger.

What are your thoughts on these???

I was thinking perhaps the best approach would to be run it with very little boost.. say 4-6.. so it saves tearing the engine up and saves having to get forged pistons, manifold and the like. I think roughly the only thing really would be the turbo and new injectors.

Iv read on here some people have tried the raptor supercharger kit for the V8's.. (mine being an I6 of course)

Can you do something like that with superchargers? run low boost without having to buy a 5k kit?

Anyway thoughts/ideas/personal opinions all welcome =)

sleeper393 · 02-07-2010, 09:25 PM

super charger setup imo is an easier system to setup as you dont have to get a whole new exhaust system , intercooler , and the such , but different power delivery from both, depends what you want , turbo = lag then good when on boost , super charged ,power instantly but fades alittle up high, more useable on the the street.

robbyj · 02-07-2010, 10:00 PM

Ah k, so if you wanted to do a basic cheapish supercharger setup, what would be the goods?

sleeper393 · 02-07-2010, 10:08 PM

imo yes, but each to their own , less work to setup , as said if your car already has a good exhaust and the such you can slap on a supercharger, hypothetically
and your away , turbo as i said all new exhaust , intercooler and a few other details, but thats just my 2 bobs worth. i like both , and given the money i would be asking the same , what way should i go !

sleeper393 · 02-07-2010, 10:13 PM

raptor have been fairly newish , but having good sucess , then there are capa, whom have been doing this for a good while , so plenty of background to work from. id be asking those whom have both setups and see what meets your needs , get all the pro's and con's from both , and see which you think works the best, cheers

sleeper393 · 02-07-2010, 10:17 PM

AUSTRALIA

Raptor Superchargers Australia

Po Box 5135

Mackay MC Qld 4741

0409 897 081

Intl ph: 61 409897081

EMAIL: raptorsc@westnet.com.au

E-MAIL
capa@riverland.net.au
Please note that it may take up to 7 working days for us to reply to your email.

PHONE
For International customers, dial + 61 8 8582 3499
For Australian Customers, dial (08) 8582 3499

FAX
For International customers, dial + 61 8 8582 3477
For Australian Customers, dial (08) 8582 3477

POSTAL ADDRESS
CAPA
Lot 10 Kay Ave
Berri
SA 5343
Australia

MexicanBatman · 02-07-2010, 10:20 PM

Cmon man your never going to stick to 4psi, just do cams stally diff gears etc... It'll be as quick and when you get beaten by someone they can't take the **** cos your s/c couldn't keep up

If you wanna spend some more coin I'd be doing a turbo, remember you can always turn the boost down, and then wind it off the gauge to really impress your mates

MAD · 02-07-2010, 10:26 PM

There's a new supercharger kit available from Snort Performance.
It uses the SVT PD blower (Eaton M112) so it has boost from idle.
The kit is $3990 for all bits minus fuel pump and chip/flash tune.

If I had the cash, this is what I would be doing.

robbyj · 02-07-2010, 10:46 PM

Thanks sleeper some good help there =)
ill email both of them and see how they respond.

mad, yea cash is always an issue.. whether you can justify the spending for the result =p

AUIIPURSUIT · 02-07-2010, 11:08 PM

a turbo is far superior to a supercharge imo, but a supercharger is more bolt on friendly.
youd need a block back exhaust -manifold, front, dump, larger exhaust most likely for ya turbo, its also essential to run a cooler with a turbo, and whilst a sc will reap rewards of one, its not essential on low boost application. If i had 5k to blow on one or the other, and obtaining manifolds wasnt too "custom" =i.e expensive, then id go turbo.

the difference between the two is a turbo, you can stay off boost, a supercharger is CONSTANTLY running, unless you pull over and take it off the belt.
Also, a turbo uses your exhaust gases (free power) to create forced induction, a supercharger uses your engine to create forced induction. Therefor a supercharger is around a 30% loss deficiency, as it uses power to make power.

Having said that, both are alot of fun.

ive come from a 15psi high flow turbo 4cyl, to an NA 8.. i miss my boost, thats for sure, but still loving the 8 all the same.

robbyj · 02-07-2010, 11:47 PM

Correct me if im wrong but you can but the supercharger on a switch yea? so on/off?

MAD · 02-07-2010, 11:52 PM

The M112 superchargers have a bypass valve so at idle and cruise they're actually not working.

There were some toyota superchargers that ran a similar setup to an A/C compressor where you could turn it on/off.

AUIIPURSUIT · 03-07-2010, 12:19 AM

ah, interesting. maybe im thinking of the m90... im pretty sure that was constant wasnt it? the toyota superchargers were quite small though werent they?

frd906 · 03-07-2010, 12:35 AM

i asked the same question ages ago, this is the response i got

Well, considering yours is a 6 and you'd be looking at a sub-$5k off-the-shelf system, you're talking single turbo vs centrifugal blower.

Turbo positives;
-more torque from 1800rpm or so (ie when on-boost, you end up with a broad torque flat across the mid-range rather than a curve)
-boost adjustment is possible on the fly (in-cabin)
-as economical as an aspirated motor at cruise (have compared FG XR6 with FG XR6T and they consume practically the same quantities of petrol when you're just maintaing your speed on the open road)
-same boost pressure (and/or the same injectors) will produce a little bit more power (uses exhaust energy and restricts it some, but that's a little more mechanically efficient than draining some power off the crank; this also means that the same power level with a turbo is slightly less stressful on the motor, although this is offset in practice by the extra boost earlier in the rev range putting more stress on the motor)
-no real need to change the cam until well over 260rwkw (whereas supercharged engines like a cam with an exhaust lobe bias as well as proper extractors)
-turbo can come on strongly enough to break traction with rolling acceleration (this can also be a negative as it may kill you, thats if it doesn't break the drivettrain first)
-very quiet off-boost (easy to go unnoticed with a proper sleeper)

Turbo negatives;
-turbo lag (this can be minimised and a driver can learn to anticipate it)
-little more work to install (connecting exhaust to turbo manifold and need to plumb in an oil feed and return line)
-turbochargers tend to cook the oil if there isn't sufficient oil cooling
-need to run (idle) the motor for a short time to cool the turbo before turning it off, especially if you've been giving it a hard time (again, to avoid cooking the oil inside it)

Supercharger (centrifugal) positives;
-boost rises with rpm and is identical each time (makes driving it more predictable), this causes the superior throttle response
-complete kits are a simpler install (just brackets, pulleys and induction piping)
-supercharger whine can be considered appealing (or if people mistake it for a shagged power steering pump it still passes as a sleeper)

Supercharger (centrifugal) negatives;
-refer to turbo positives (although a centrifugal can raise the boost quite sharply too, if you want it to)
__________________

SLO AU XR8 · 03-07-2010, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frd906

i asked the same question ages ago, this is the response i got

Well, considering yours is a 6 and you'd be looking at a sub-$5k off-the-shelf system, you're talking single turbo vs centrifugal blower.

Turbo positives;
-more torque from 1800rpm or so (ie when on-boost, you end up with a broad torque flat across the mid-range rather than a curve)
-boost adjustment is possible on the fly (in-cabin)
-as economical as an aspirated motor at cruise (have compared FG XR6 with FG XR6T and they consume practically the same quantities of petrol when you're just maintaing your speed on the open road)
-same boost pressure (and/or the same injectors) will produce a little bit more power (uses exhaust energy and restricts it some, but that's a little more mechanically efficient than draining some power off the crank; this also means that the same power level with a turbo is slightly less stressful on the motor, although this is offset in practice by the extra boost earlier in the rev range putting more stress on the motor)
-no real need to change the cam until well over 260rwkw (whereas supercharged engines like a cam with an exhaust lobe bias as well as proper extractors)
-turbo can come on strongly enough to break traction with rolling acceleration (this can also be a negative as it may kill you, thats if it doesn't break the drivettrain first)
-very quiet off-boost (easy to go unnoticed with a proper sleeper)

Turbo negatives;
-turbo lag (this can be minimised and a driver can learn to anticipate it)
-little more work to install (connecting exhaust to turbo manifold and need to plumb in an oil feed and return line)
-turbochargers tend to cook the oil if there isn't sufficient oil cooling
-need to run (idle) the motor for a short time to cool the turbo before turning it off, especially if you've been giving it a hard time (again, to avoid cooking the oil inside it)

Supercharger (centrifugal) positives;
-boost rises with rpm and is identical each time (makes driving it more predictable), this causes the superior throttle response
-complete kits are a simpler install (just brackets, pulleys and induction piping)
-supercharger whine can be considered appealing (or if people mistake it for a shagged power steering pump it still passes as a sleeper)

Supercharger (centrifugal) negatives;
-refer to turbo positives (although a centrifugal can raise the boost quite sharply too, if you want it to)
__________________

Best post in this thread. Also, Best post YOU have made Matt!

frd906 · 03-07-2010, 01:02 AM

sums it all up

MAD · 03-07-2010, 01:17 AM

Thats some good information you were given there Matt.
It needs some extra info added now that you can get a Positive Displacement blower kit for under $5k now too.

I think the best thing the OP could do to decide which way to go, is try to drive each type. You cant learn what they feel like by reading forums. You can learn characteristics, but how it feels can be very subjective.

robbyj · 03-07-2010, 01:42 AM

So its much of a muchness really, both have their positives/negatives
MAD, you are right about 'test driving' an engine with each installed, just in my town.. Hard to find people with either done. Even being VN capital here i dont think there is many guys at all.

I guess either way you would have to learn how to drive with it, be it turbo or SC.
Some interesting insight here anyway.

What i would prefer.. personally. Would be off the shelf.. simple enough to install.

Quote:

"Here it is, first change the injectors then ..................

The extremely good news is that the only parts you totally remove are the cold air intake, the airbox and the tubing from airbox to the hard plastic hosework.

Then you remove the 4 mounting bolts from the AC compressor, put those bolts to one side, pick up 4 supplied bolts (longer), slide these throught the Supercharger bracket, then install the spacers (one on each bolt) then slide bolts through the AC compressor, then lower the bracket, bolts and AC compressor back into normal position for the AC compressor, start the threads of all four bolts, then remove one bolt from thermostat housing. Then pull bracket hole into alignment with bolt hole in thermo housing and refit bolt, do not tighten yet. Then position bracket so that supercharger pulley is aligned with orginal belt line, lock bracket in position by tightening one of the 4 bolts then tighten the other 3. Then tighten the bolt at thermostat housing.

Congratulations, the supercharger and bracket are now attached to your engine.

Next task is to fit the drive belt, how hard is that hey ...........

Then fit suction pipe and filter to supercharger, then fit discharge pipework, then reroute engine breather hose ........... and blah blah blah.

Then fit the sparkplugs supplied, flash in the tune and you are racing.

Yes it is this easy .......... I kid you not"

That was taken from someone from raptor supercharger kits on the fordmods.com forum..

So what are the cost related issues with Turbo Vs Supercharger?

mik · 03-07-2010, 03:08 AM

perhaps you could add that turbo`s add more heat under bonnet too, did anyone mention the cost of tuneing as well for either chargeing method ?

private9 · 03-07-2010, 09:59 AM

Try and get a drive of a 4lt with each setup. After that, the answer will be VERY obvious.

Turbo setups are fairly common second hand, and if you know what you're looking for you can save yourself a heap of cash.

PS - search, this has been covered about 4.2million times!

xr8ute · 03-07-2010, 10:33 AM

You could easily stuff up either turbo or supercharger setup. i.e. neither is a guarantee of success (or at least the results you expect).

If you are going to piece a kit together yourself, be prepared to do a heap of research and still not get it right on your first attempt.

If you are looking for a kit that is already complete and ready to bolt on, then the main players to look at are CAPA, Snort, Raptor. Ask each of these guys about fuel system, and tuning requirements. These parts are often comprimised (FMU) or left out altogether...Intercooling is often left out of basic kits as well.

Fuel system and Intercooling are the two most likely comprimises in a basic kit, and two things you will need to address before you "wind up the boost". Getting fuel system and intercooling right can cost you almost as much as again as the entire basic kit.

Of the cheap < $5000 kits out there for the 4L, i think the Snort M112 kit would be by far and away the best to drive on the street.