Speed Limit Tolerances to be Lowered in QLD

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

If the measure was about road safety, they wouldn't hesitate to publish the tolerance. This would not only show that, it would also show that they know the quality and condition of the road and know how safe a given speed is on that stretch and are able to give a leeway based on this knowledge.

Did you ever consider that 105 in a 110 zone was that safe figure and that 110 is giving you some leeway...

The truth is, if they just came out and said you wouldn't get fined below 120 in a 110 zone, many people would just do the 120 and whinge when they accidently crept past 122 and got fined.
Then we'd hear, oh but whats 2k's over...

[2011G6E]

Speed cameras are set up to do away with any reasonable defence.
If you haven't seen the camera...and most are hidden pretty damn well...then a week or two later you get a fine in the mail. Unless you can remember the exact spot and what exact speed you were doing, they are relying on the vast majority of people to shrug and say "Well...I guess maybe I must have been speeding a bit and never noticed it...I'll pay up."


I love the amount of faith so many people have in the police always setting up a speed trap with such infallibility and crossing all the T's and dotting all the I's of calibration requirements every single time it's set up...

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Speed cameras are set up to do away with any reasonable defence.
If you haven't seen the camera...and most are hidden pretty damn well...then a week or two later you get a fine in the mail. Unless you can remember the exact spot and what exact speed you were doing, they are relying on the vast majority of people to shrug and say "Well...I guess maybe I must have been speeding a bit and never noticed it...I'll pay up."


I love the amount of faith so many people have in the police always setting up a speed trap with such infallibility and crossing all the T's and dotting all the I's of calibration requirements every single time it's set up...

If you were doing 60, in a 60 zone, and you got pulled over by this inaccurate device, wouldn't everyone else who is doing 60 get pulled over too.
Or do they just scan a car doing 70 and then apply that reading to "P" platers, the elderly, rich businessmen, VN drivers and anyone else who they see fit...riiight

OOps, almost forgot an emoticon to express my frustrations...

[cs123]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

If you were doing 60, in a 60 zone, and you got pulled over by this inaccurate device, wouldn't everyone else who is doing 60 get pulled over too.

Isn't there documented cases of exactly that and the govt having to turn them off ?

[XBROO]

Tolerances don't bother me, as when I get caught I'm well over.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by cs123

Isn't there documented cases of exactly that and the govt having to turn them off ?

And those cases are discovered and rectified, certainly not often enough to incite a riot.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by XBROO

Tolerances don't bother me, as when I get caught I'm well over.

I gather your tongue is planted firmly in cheek, however, this type of honesty is welcomed.
Seriously, my old man always said to me, 'don't be afraid to make mistakes, only fear not learning from it'.
I don't make excuses when I get pinged, doesn't happen often enough to warrant a 'conspiracy theory' or 'rights erosion' rant.

I just get on with it and do my best to be a courteous, law abiding motorist who pays attention and learns from his mistakes.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

And those cases are discovered and rectified, certainly not often enough to incite a riot.

What's you point about riots? People were certainly ****ed when it was admitted that the infallible cameras were indeed calibrated wrong. People who has contested their tickets and lost.

A vast majority of the public see the excessive policing of speed as something other than road safety. Australians are an lazy bunch and tend not to go rioting for anything. Just look at the crap we get dished up at times from our government and we mostly just whinge and carry on.

You seem to be on a crusade to tell us we are over reacting and we should wipe off 5. Your message has been received loud and clear.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by cs123

What's you point about riots? People were certainly ****ed when it was admitted that the infallible cameras were indeed calibrated wrong. People who has contested their tickets and lost.

A vast majority of the public see the excessive policing of speed as something other than road safety. Australians are an lazy bunch and tend not to go rioting for anything. Just look at the crap we get dished up at times from our government and we mostly just whinge and carry on.

You seem to be on a crusade to tell us we are over reacting and we should wipe off 5. Your message has been received loud and clear.

My point is that if this was happening all the time, motoring groups would be all over it.
I wonder if those same people up in arms about a handful of dodgy fines would complain if they got a bigger than entitled tax cheque back next month...

Hey, its not my message you need to heed.

Im just explaining how I look after my hard earned, I never start these threads and for good reason.

[Kable72]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Serious, I cant believe you would put that out in public.

My Magna has factory cruise, it is the worst cruise control I have ever used as it struggles to maintain a constant speed on slight inclines/declines.
You know what, every time it decelerates or accelerates it is noticeable to the point of causing nausea.
I am talking 3-4k adjustments here, both minor inputs, both just as noticeable, well at least it is to me.

Actually, now I come to think of it, we cant all be nuclear physicists or astronauts either...

Mate, most speeding offences come from someone being unaware they have drifted slightly over the speed limit. How is someone supposed to notice, if it's gradual and not in the case of your shoddy cruise control on your pos magna that seems like you notice the engine revving rather than picking up speed, that they have picked up a K or 2 drifting slightly over the speedlimit and getting busted by our "finest" for not paying absolute attention to the speed they're doing?

I've been done speeding 3 times in the life of my licence, 2 of which I was knowingly speeding (young, don't fry me for it), and the third I was done 3ks over the limit (73 in a 70) would have fought tooth and nail to beat as I do not believe I was speeding but the way the system is setup you lose more time and money than you would by just paying the fine. Throw in a slight decline, foot relaxes a little and puts more pressure on the throttle, whatever. Small, incremental changes to your speed are very difficult to notice unless you glue your chin to your speedo and watch that ***** more than you watch the road. The emphasis that is put on speeding being our primary killer on our roads is beyond insanity right now and it's only going to stand to get worse for EVERYONE. Not just the people that habitually sit 5ks over the speed limit, not just the people who are known tossers that speed everywhere, and even self proclaimed heroes like yourself will be affected when this speed kills bs stops generating them money or doesn't put an end to killing people.

[XBROO]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I gather your tongue is planted firmly in cheek, however, this type of honesty is welcomed.
Seriously, my old man always said to me, 'don't be afraid to make mistakes, only fear not learning from it'.
I don't make excuses when I get pinged, doesn't happen often enough to warrant a 'conspiracy theory' or 'rights erosion' rant.

I just get on with it and do my best to be a courteous, law abiding motorist who pays attention and learns from his mistakes.

Yeah it was a bit, but I haven't ever been done for just a couple kays over. It's always been 15 plus and on a number times, the officer reduced the speed so I wouldn't lose too many points. I just think it's another scare tactic by govco, to slow people down. I know when I try and just sit on the speed limit, I have people sitting on my tail. Look I know the govco likes revenue, but in the end it's up to you if you want to pay or not. And I know that a couple of kays don't make a difference but 10 kays do.

[Kable72]

Originally Posted by XBROO

Yeah it was a bit, but I haven't ever been done for just a couple kays over. It's always been 15 plus and on a number times, the officer reduced the speed so I wouldn't lose too many points. I just think it's another scare tactic by govco, to slow people down. I know when I try and just sit on the speed limit, I have people sitting on my tail. Look I know the govco likes revenue, but in the end it's up to you if you want to pay or not. And I know that a couple of kays don't make a difference but 10 kays do.

Not a personal attack on you or anything mate, these are the kind of offences that should be targetted. Not average joe 2-4ks over the speed limit which is where the majority of the fines come from. Drink Driving, Fatigue and poor driving skills are what I am afraid of on the road. Not some guy slowly creeping past me in the right hand lane.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Where did you hear rubbish??

All police equipment is calibrated to already give you a discount, in case of inaccuracies. This includes all radar equipment used for speed checks as well as the alcohol testing equipment they use at RBT.

The Victorian Supreme Court has confirmed that Speed Cameras are exempt from normal testing standards
On the 11 November 2011 the Victoria Supreme Court handed down two significant findings in the case of Agar v Dolheguy.
Speed cameras in Victoria are subject to special exemption from testing as normally applied to all trade measurement, police forensic laboratories and alcohol breath testing.
It is not necessary for the testing personal to have any documented test procedures, or any records of their tests, nor to follow any accepted standard of practice, nor to even test the device in the field.
The only requirement is that the testing officer be satisfied that it will read “true speeds”. Refer to paragraphs 35, 38 and 41(b) of the judgment
This is then taken to mean that the speed measuring device will read correctly in all possible circumstances.

http://www.fightfines.info/

[Kable72]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

The Victorian Supreme Court has confirmed that Speed Cameras are exempt from normal testing standards
On the 11 November 2011 the Victoria Supreme Court handed down two significant findings in the case of Agar v Dolheguy.
Speed cameras in Victoria are subject to special exemption from testing as normally applied to all trade measurement, police forensic laboratories and alcohol breath testing.
It is not necessary for the testing personal to have any documented test procedures, or any records of their tests, nor to follow any accepted standard of practice, nor to even test the device in the field.
The only requirement is that the testing officer be satisfied that it will read “true speeds”. Refer to paragraphs 35, 38 and 41(b) of the judgment
This is then taken to mean that the speed measuring device will read correctly in all possible circumstances.

http://www.fightfines.info/

Is that the case just in VIC? Wouldn't surprise me that Victoria exempts it's cameras and speed devices from regular testing and calibration.

[Trump]

What staggers me is how people can have so much faith in govco to do the right thing by everyone, knowing full well precedent says otherwise.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Kable72

Mate, most speeding offences come from someone being unaware they have drifted slightly over the speed limit. How is someone supposed to notice, if it's gradual and not in the case of your shoddy cruise control on your pos magna that seems like you notice the engine revving rather than picking up speed, that they have picked up a K or 2 drifting slightly over the speedlimit and getting busted by our "finest" for not paying absolute attention to the speed they're doing?

Uh Uh, temper, temper!

Originally Posted by Kable72

. Throw in a slight decline, foot relaxes a little and puts more pressure on the throttle, whatever. Small, incremental changes to your speed are very difficult to notice unless you glue your chin to your speedo and watch that ***** more than you watch the road. .

Umm...this>>>..'.Actually, now I come to think of it, we cant all be nuclear physicists or astronauts either...'

Perhaps competent driving's not your thing.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

The Victorian Supreme Court has confirmed that Speed Cameras are exempt from normal testing standards
On the 11 November 2011 the Victoria Supreme Court handed down two significant findings in the case of Agar v Dolheguy.
Speed cameras in Victoria are subject to special exemption from testing as normally applied to all trade measurement, police forensic laboratories and alcohol breath testing.
It is not necessary for the testing personal to have any documented test procedures, or any records of their tests, nor to follow any accepted standard of practice, nor to even test the device in the field.
The only requirement is that the testing officer be satisfied that it will read “true speeds”. Refer to paragraphs 35, 38 and 41(b) of the judgment
This is then taken to mean that the speed measuring device will read correctly in all possible circumstances.

http://www.fightfines.info/

So, if the detection equipment doesn't get regular testing, and neither does your cars speedo, the only alternative is to err on the side of caution.

Now there's a revelation.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

So, if the detection equipment doesn't get regular testing, and neither does your cars speedo, the only alternative is to err on the side of caution.

Now there's a revelation.

That is the whole point of this discussion, reducing (maybe even removing) the tolerances does away with erring on the side of caution. Police either won't be allowed to use discretion or won't do it of their own volition.

By exempting the speed cameras and related revenue raising, I mean road safety, equipment from testing and calibration, govco has all but admitted that the equipment isn't for road safety purposes.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

That is the whole point of this discussion, reducing (maybe even removing) the tolerances does away with erring on the side of caution. Police either won't be allowed to use discretion or won't do it of their own volition.

That's easy, reduce the speed you err at.

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

By exempting the speed cameras and related revenue raising, I mean road safety, equipment from testing and calibration, govco has all but admitted that the equipment isn't for road safety purposes.

Or maybe there just sick of having to continually deal with the whingers who see a problem with them.

Do you know that in any 24hr period the number of times I consider speed detection equipment is zero, nil, nada.
99% of the population exist alongside them without any fear of contributing to their cause, try it.

[XBROO]

Originally Posted by Kable72

Not a personal attack on you or anything mate, these are the kind of offences that should be targetted. Not average joe 2-4ks over the speed limit which is where the majority of the fines come from. Drink Driving, Fatigue and poor driving skills are what I am afraid of on the road. Not some guy slowly creeping past me in the right hand lane.

That's cool man, but I haven't ever been pinged for a couple kays over. I'm 40 and have had a drivers licence since the age of 16 1/2.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Serious, I cant believe you would put that out in public.

My Magna has factory cruise, it is the worst cruise control I have ever used as it struggles to maintain a constant speed on slight inclines/declines.
You know what, every time it decelerates or accelerates it is noticeable to the point of causing nausea.
I am talking 3-4k adjustments here, both minor inputs, both just as noticeable, well at least it is to me.

Actually, now I come to think of it, we cant all be nuclear physicists or astronauts either...

So are you driving dangerously when you allow your vehicle does this?

You are obviously are either : -

aware, and you disengage the cruise everytime you go downhill on an undulating road. (why would you bother with cruise?)

you allow your speed to creep into the deadly 64kph that gets you a ticket in VIC

or even worse, you drive around with cruise well under the speed limit so you have a built in margin for error, creating bank ups and frustration in the traffic.

The whole reason why most on here get so frustrated with this is that it is revenue raising. If Someone is telling me that a 60kph straight of road is unsafe at 64, then the speed limit should have been set at 70. BUt that would not raise much revenue would it? Being a few 5 k's over should not earn a fine from an automated system like traffic cameras. I have no issue if a policeman fined me for 5 k's over if I was driving unsafely (swerving, not indicating, jumping in front of trucks), but if I was cruising up a divided carriageway (like where most speed cameras are set up in VIC) and I just crept up a few K's and was driving perfectly safely - different story.

[2011G6E]

The point is this: you should be able to sit at the limit...not under it, not near it...and know that you are safe from being pinged for any little faults in the system somewhere caused by a plus or minus allowance being set so low that you are afraid of sitting anywhere near the limit "just in case".

The driving we do out here is mainly fairly long distance...I want to sit on the limit and not five kph under "just to be on the safe side".


Besides the fact that all this concentration on speed cameras doesn't do anything about the real safety problems on the road.

Our nephew is in the police, and said that when he was sitting in the back of the camera van, he would hear the camera go off, and wonder a few things...why is the car speeding? Is it:
* Unregistered?
* Stolen?
* Drunk driver?
* Drugged driver?
* Unroadworthy?
* Got a body in the boot?
* Back seat full of drugs?
* Running from a robbery?

...and so on.
In "the bad old days" cops would be about driving around and physically pull over a car and would catch these sort of things.
Sure, they didn't catch as many speeders as a fixed camera unit, but the things they did catch were far more important than someone doing five or ten kph over the limit.

[Kable72]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Uh Uh, temper, temper!



Umm...this>>>..'.Actually, now I come to think of it, we cant all be nuclear physicists or astronauts either...'

Perhaps competent driving's not your thing.

Mightn't be your thing either if you have to use a terrible factory cruise control as you say so yourself. Cruise control does not eliminate the need to pay attention to your speed as it will not apply the brakes (on most models) to maintain speed if you're on a decline or if your head wind changes direction or speed. The world isn't black and white so why should we be forced to live by black and white?

[Kable72]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Did you ever consider that 105 in a 110 zone was that safe figure and that 110 is giving you some leeway...

The truth is, if they just came out and said you wouldn't get fined below 120 in a 110 zone, many people would just do the 120 and whinge when they accidently crept past 122 and got fined.
Then we'd hear, oh but whats 2k's over...

But that's not what the case is. If the leeway was that large, then the speedlimit would be posted as such. The leeway is there to cut you some slack from uncalibrated speed cameras and radars and your speedo. You could have your speedo calculated every 25-50 thousand ks and it would STILL be out as the rolling diameter of your tyres would change by a few mil which could throw the read out by a k or two, maybe even moreso at 100-110.

[GCRXR6]

I can't believe the people here claiming that you have to have your eyes planted on the speedo to maintain your speed. Not necessary. There is a simple system of driving that allows you to scan your environment every ten seconds ... and helps to keep you alert. Scan up the right side from A pillar to infinity, back down the left (3 sec), left mirror, right mirror, centre mirror (3 sec), temp, fuel, lights SPEEDO (3 sec), eyes forward (1 sec) Start again. You wont gain much in speed in ten secods if you maintain a steady foot. Simple defensive/professional driving education really. Been doing it for ..... years ..... crikey, nearly revealed my age. One speeding ticket, wholeheartedly deserved.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Well I have driven all across the eastern and southern states of Oz in my 20 years of driving, covering around 35,000k's a year and in that time I have acquired 3 speeding tickets, one just recently infact.
At NO time have I felt the need to constantly check my speedo or scan around for speed camera's.
Perhaps im lucky, so too must be everyone I know.

Now, if 3 k's @ 60 was tolerable for arguments sake, that would allow 5.5k's @ 110, if you stuck to 107 it would give you a margin or 8-9k's.
Don't tell me you cant notice the best part of 10k's difference, I know when the rural road limit was dropped from 110 to 100 here in SA, the 10k's difference was very noticeable.

It really seems that when it comes to traffic policing, if a whole group of 5 or 6 vehicles are punching along at about less than 10 over the limit on the open highway, the hwp officer is faced with a dilemma. Have seen this personally a few times. Cop on the median strip or entry ramp with radar gun out. Car in front was punching along at 118 in a 110. Nobody was sitting at the speed limit. Speed reading was via GPS. Not one person was pulled over. Didn't receive a fine either, tailing these cars at the same speed.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by GCRXR6

I can't believe the people here claiming that you have to have your eyes planted on the speedo to maintain your speed. Not necessary. There is a simple system of driving that allows you to scan your environment every ten seconds ... and helps to keep you alert. Scan up the right side from A pillar to infinity, back down the left (3 sec), left mirror, right mirror, centre mirror (3 sec), temp, fuel, lights SPEEDO (3 sec), eyes forward (1 sec) Start again. You wont gain much in speed in ten secods if you maintain a steady foot. Simple defensive/professional driving education really. Been doing it for ..... years ..... crikey, nearly revealed my age. One speeding ticket, wholeheartedly deserved.

Dont know if serious, You only have your eyes on the road for 4 out of every 10 seconds?

You wont get many speeding tickets, but dont drive anywhere near a school please

[noflac52]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Speed cameras are set up to do away with any reasonable defence.
If you haven't seen the camera...and most are hidden pretty damn well...then a week or two later you get a fine in the mail. Unless you can remember the exact spot and what exact speed you were doing, they are relying on the vast majority of people to shrug and say "Well...I guess maybe I must have been speeding a bit and never noticed it...I'll pay up."


I love the amount of faith so many people have in the police always setting up a speed trap with such infallibility and crossing all the T's and dotting all the I's of calibration requirements every single time it's set up...

Originally Posted by BENT_8

If you were doing 60, in a 60 zone, and you got pulled over by this inaccurate device, wouldn't everyone else who is doing 60 get pulled over too.
Or do they just scan a car doing 70 and then apply that reading to "P" platers, the elderly, rich businessmen, VN drivers and anyone else who they see fit...riiight

OOps, almost forgot an emoticon to express my frustrations...

Here we have the ultimate paradox of law enforcement on the roads.

According to the authorities speed is what will kill you and numerous other people on our roads and speeding is an act that is in the present moment so that is where and when the dangerous situation exists!

Yet it is fine by them to take a picture of the act and present it to you weeks later when the danger has well and truly passed and to all intents and purposes you may not remember if you were speeding or not, or you may not even have any knowledge that you were exceeding the speed limit due to inaccuracies of a speedo. Still you managed to survive anyway but it is pretty much a useless argument to try to fight it.

Secondly being pulled over for speeding by an inaccurate speed monitoring device used by authorities (its a proven fact that this does happen on a regular basis) and then having to fight your way out of a situation (legally) whereby you were not breaking any law at all. Again its a situation that would probably not be worth pursuing in most cases yet in both cases the anomalies are clear.

In the first one the danger is long gone so safety is not an issue. If it was, the act of speeding should be dealt with on the spot by law enforcement personnel to remove the danger.

In the second one, everyone is entitled to travel at the posted speed limit. It is the law. There is no requirement to travel 2 or 3 k's below it and you get pinged due to the fallibility of the system when you are doing what is considered to be safe by the authorities, so safety is not a factor here either but still the onus is on you to either fight it or pay up.

The message here is that its quite ok for the authorities to have inaccurate equipment but it is not ok for you to have equipment that is inaccurate even to a small degree.

In other areas of the law intent must be proven before it is determined weather a crime has been committed or not so I can understand the frustration of what has been described "as a few people on a forum whinging about it".

BENT8 I noticed the comment under your forum name "an unbiased opinion".
That is sarcasm I take it!

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

It really seems that when it comes to traffic policing, if a whole group of 5 or 6 vehicles are punching along at about less than 10 over the limit on the open highway, the hwp officer is faced with a dilemma. Have seen this personally a few times. Cop on the median strip or entry ramp with radar gun out. Car in front was punching along at 118 in a 110. Nobody was sitting at the speed limit. Speed reading was via GPS. Not one person was pulled over. Didn't receive a fine either, tailing these cars at the same speed.

Totally agreed, and that is where the difference lies between fixed cameras which just click, or an officer who may consider the vehicles speed and the conditions to be within what he considers acceptable.
Im not saying that 10k's over on any particular example of road isn't safe or in a perfect world what the limit should be, but it is what it is.
I too have been in that situation and instantly thought, oops could have been pinched there and it gets my attention.
Hey, im not perfect, but I don't run around screaming that the walls are closing in if I get caught.
If im speeding, its because im not paying full attention and this is quite often when things go bad for many.
A fine to remind me to pull my head in is often welcomed, if im honest with yourself.
My driving style dictates that it doesn't happen often enough to concern me, and in a world of road rage and honking horns, no ones flippin' the bird in my rear vision mirror over my conduct.

Now to those above.

As for my cruise control in my pos Magna, I've only had the car a month and have driven it long distance 3 times that would warrant cruise control.
The first time was the last time it was used...

Not only did it feel terrible, but it also pushed the fuel consumption up going by the trip computer.
My VRX is manual, I like to control it ALL the time. Cruise is not a big deal to me.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

My wife's car is out 5km/h at 100km/h... if I hadn't verified it via gps I would never have known. Does that mean little old granny who doesn't even know what gps stands for let alone is won't still cop a fine?

Im going to start charging $20 per vehicle for a gps readout and grahic of how far speedos are based on car vs gps data. Reckon the police should verify your speedo for free? I do. Waste my time with bs fine, ill make sure to waste theirs.