Industrial relations worker legislation (end of an era) your thoughts - Page 8

XAGSV8 · 16-11-2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Most small business owners like myself have one huge indispensable commodity, skilled staff. The cost of replacement for these people in a small business environment is huge, and you never quite achieve full productivity for a couple of years. As a result, people like myself would never dream of cutting staff's wages as it is basically a recipe for financial ruin.

True, I have estimated the cost of turnover and hiring to be around $7000 for the business I am in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

The best advice I can offer is to wait until the legislation is put to informed public opinion, because if you think about it; John Howard and his government are not going to do anything that completely jeapordises their chances at the next federal election in 2007. Just think back to all of the doomsday prophecies around the time the GST was introduced. Even those who had trouble with it were granted leniency, and extensions to submissions for a period of 18 months.

:

That is the best advise. If I am wrong when the legislation comes out I will gladly admit it but I think most people will go what was all the fuss about before it came in. As I have said before the unions are running scare tactics. What I find very funny is shows like today tonight running stories about people getting their contracts changed at the moment and threatening the sack because they can't work on certain day's. They are forgeting one thing when they do these stories, we are still in our current system. Had to laugh at the unions on the news tonight also saying the new laws will cause deaths in the building trades (I didn't know the new laws will affect the safety act and regulations, what a load of crap and just shows how low they are prepared to go).

MO · 16-11-2005, 09:25 PM

There in is the problem the legislation is NOT going to be put the public...it is going to be rushed through parliament and you will wear it employee/employer.

RED_EL_XR8 · 16-11-2005, 09:30 PM

But have you read any of it? Any of the proposals?

MO · 16-11-2005, 09:31 PM

GSWXA..your cost of training is minimal..in my old job training cost approx $50,000.

As for the current system if you are on an award..no real prob..if you are on an AWA..you've got probs.

MO · 16-11-2005, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

But have you read any of it? Any of the proposals?

not yet RED gimme a chance I've had elect's crawling all over house today.

Don't forget its 1200pg....have you read it yet.

ltd · 16-11-2005, 09:37 PM

I doubt it. There will be discussion and there will be amendments made. Like I said before, the government wants to win the next election and they stand to lose if there is a massive voter backlash due to some unscrupulous law that adversely affects the masses. Currently we have more anti propoganda than pro and as such it plays into the hearts and minds of those potentially at risk, and even those that aren't at risk. There is also alot of flagrant lies being told to instill fear into the public, even when there are other motives at play.

As a sidenote, the fact that all the labor premieres are against the bill to me means that it can't be all that bad; especially when you weigh it up against their recent choices and policies. More to the fact though, labor both state and federal have close ties to the trade unions, and as such they are merely portraying a unified front. Even though their challenges and various media promotions is coming at expense to taxpayers through the states' consolidated revenue generated by the way of state taxes, but we won't go into that.

XAGSV8 · 16-11-2005, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McMaster

GSWXA..your cost of training is minimal..in my old job training cost approx $50,000.

Holy crap, hope you didn't have much turnover.

RED_EL_XR8 · 16-11-2005, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McMaster

not yet RED gimme a chance I've had elect's crawling all over house today.

Don't forget its 1200pg....have you read it yet.

I thought not! Might be time for a lot more reading, and a lot less unsubstantiated baying all round.. Hmmm ?????

MO · 16-11-2005, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

I thought not! Might be time for a lot more reading, and a lot less unsubstantiated baying all round.. Hmmm ?????

Red I don't disagree but you did'nt anwer the question..."Have you read it yet".

RED_EL_XR8 · 16-11-2005, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McMaster

Red I don't disagree but you did'nt anwer the question..."Have you read it yet".

I have read and listened to a variety of commentators, not just the ones I agree with. This left me alert but not alarmed !!! :hihi:

MO · 16-11-2005, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSWXA

Holy crap, hope you didn't have much turnover.

More than we should have..and currently my old job is recruiting...to the tune of about 150 employees at 10/15 per course,of which about 85/90% will make it through to full employment and might last about 5yrs for about 10% who make it.

MO · 16-11-2005, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

I have read and listened to a variety of commentator, not just the ones I agree with. This left me alert but not alarmed !!! :hihi:

Fair enough but as I have said in previous posts...."I'm of open mind but very wary..because I don't trust the them".

gtfpv · 16-11-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

No, none. Why, because my employees are my biggest commodity. I train them and as such value my time enough to keep them interested. As such I pay them accordingly and do things like staff birthdays, monthly BBQ's, Christmas parties etc. I also treat them like mates and they do the same. They trust me and I trust them so it's not in my interest to try to punish them financially. To give you an indication though, if the Government mandates that I should pay all of them $2-$3 an hour less than their current hourly rate; I won't be reducing it purely because I know that someone else will pay them that same $2-$3 extra. In actual fact though, the only thing that affects me is the IR laws

What gives me the right to make an informed decision is that I have had experience in this arena. About 6 years ago I employed an elder gentleman (61 years old) who could not get work anywhere. I put him on normal rates and gave him normal work. I knew he would not be an expert nor a standout employee but I felt sorry for him and his predicament especially when I found out he had a family still dependant upon him. So for four and a half years, he worked for us. Towards the final year however, he started to forget things. Developed an aggressive form of Alzheimers. (His wife informed me of this when she phoned through suggesting that he should retire, as she was worried about him on the road. She unsuccessfully suggested to him to retire, but he didn't want to).

Got to the point whereby it was so bad he was getting lost on the way to work, and couldn't remember his name. I strongly urged him to see his doctor, to which came no reply. Anyway, after becoming totally unemployable by the fact that he was totally unproductive; I took a risk assessment and found that he was unable to even travel safely to and from work, let alone work. Over a 6 month period he was ultimately repeatedly councilled, warned and dismissed with all entitlements and a bonus of $5000.00 to help him pay some bills.

A month later he went for unfair dismissal because his son (a legal secretary) refused to believe his father had anything wrong with him. Long story short, the ruling was that he was incapable of working and that I had followed all of the correct procedures but I should still give him $10,000.00 within 4 weeks on top of the bonus I gave him at the termination of his employment.

As a result, I had to let the casual I had employed to replace him go, as I couldn't afford to pay his wage and the $10,000.00. I also had to borrow money to pay for this on top of my overdraft, mortgage and other various loans.

So I ask you, who would put themselves in my position, and then support the unions and their anti government, over embellished lies and propoganda.
The unions claim there is nothing wrong with the IRC. Even when they admit that the "employer has done everything correctly, and been generous and helpful to the disadvantaged", but we're gonna punish you anyway.

just because you are a good employer . and you sound like you are . you think all the employers are like you. and none of them do wrong . you train your workers. give them parties pay penalties etc etc . you take an interest in them . so why don't you want other employers to be like you.you value your employees yet you call people idiots for wanting respect and rights from employers. do you value an employer who sacks say a well paid truck driver on 28 $ an hour and replaces them with a young indian who has come here for a better life is equally as skilled and just as good a worker but will come in 7 days a week for a flat 17$ an hour . they both need a job and the employer decides why not take the indian he needs a better life than over in india and appreciates work that much he deserves it and i will make more profits . dont you think the indian deserves 28 an hour as well . or do you value this employer because he is unlike you . and a good business man . next question is what happens when woolworths starts dropping your contracts and taking on this other trucking companies work . the economy will be better . will you , your employees or the other trucking company boss. some of your employees might go to a march to protect you and thier job . and the indians conditions also . will you be there with the other trucking companies ownner calling these people rambling idiots . or are you jusy exempt from exploitation or are you just a f%^ck you jack , myself and my company and my workers are ok . for the time being .

jabba · 16-11-2005, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSWXA

Had to laugh at the unions on the news tonight also saying the new laws will cause deaths in the building trades (I didn't know the new laws will affect the safety act and regulations, what a load of crap and just shows how low they are prepared to go).

I would not laugh to much mate. I have had 2 work mates die on site because the builder was trying to save a few dollars. (I do mean only a few $. i.e $500-$1000) if you give a builder a inch he wont be happy with a mile, he'll want 20 off them. construction work is one off the most dangers occupations around, and when the unions say that it will cause more deaths in the building industry, I do believe it. With the comment you made I doubt you have ever worked on a large scale construction site ever. As I said I have lost 2 mates to Builders cutting corners just to save 500-$1000 and then in the event someone dies.

The last death that I saw was during the construction of Peppers resort. 15 Jan 2005 at 8:15am. I was 20m away from ground zero and saw the whole bloody thing. In short. an manotue ( a fork lift X with a crane) over turned with a 2cubic mt bucket attach, that was full off concrete. Mick was alerted that the Manotue was coming down and there was only one way out. The end of the Boom struck Mick on the back of his head and pinned him to the ground. We had to get another crane to lift the boom of Micks head to get him out. Mick died instantly...

Know this could off been avoided very easily... Firstly the concrete company ask for a concrete pump for the job at hand. The builder replied " we will make a manotue available to you for the concrete poor" ( the builder owns the manotue there was 3 onsite) the way the builder saw it, the pump was going to cost a extra $1000 the maotue $0 as it is owned by the builder.

secondly.... The manotue was to small for the Job at hand and it was also over loaded at the time of the accident....

Question: How much is a man's life worth... $1000 ?

Sorry to go off track guy's. But I wrote all this so some of you can get some idea what we worker are up against with a lot of builders.

MO · 16-11-2005, 10:17 PM

jabba ...good point! and just for a slight digression the human body is worth about $5.00...given its chemical makeup.

gtfpv · 16-11-2005, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

See, and I didn't even get to the point the usual crowds with the high pitch screaching and hysteria from idiots like Doug Cameron. Not to mention the fact that these groups are aligned with the likes of self confessed rock spiders Bob Brown, Bob Carr et al, and other repugnant dignitaries of their own fantasies.

Just a hint to all the protestors out there. Your slogans suck.
"We're workers united - We'll never be defeated"??? WTF.
Like "You're all poets and weren't aware. You get a rhyme every occassion."

Try "We're workers united - our love is unrequited" Atleast it rhymes. Tee Hee.

this is the one i meant to reply to . but the reply still stands .by the way why dont you give nepean private hospital . which is an exclusive high profile hospital a call and find out who is working there . they have 6 new nurses all the way from india. all under a contract which pays far less than the award australian citizen nurses. no australian training and guess what . they have to pay the hospital $1500 per month for the privilage of working in the hospital . i can see this is going to help the nurses rights and keep thier conditions . and this is now. before the IR LAWS COME IN .

jabba · 16-11-2005, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McMaster

jabba ...good point! and just for a slight digression the human body is worth about $5.00...given its chemical makeup.

John. When I an apprentice I saw a fellow a apprentice nail his testicle to the ribbon plate off a house frame because the builder wanted to get the Franner crane out as it was costing him $80 per hr. The accident came about because the builder was pushing the contractor to get ribbon plates asap so that they can use the crane while it was still on site. So instead of make the job at hand safe, they sent the apprentice up to shot of the plate. You can guess the rest.

So in the builders eyes, 1 off my testicles are only worth $80. Great

RED_EL_XR8 · 16-11-2005, 10:32 PM

An children are dieing in Africa, and a car I owned once had rust, and old yeller didn't live forever, and there is no Santa Claus, and this years chips aren't as salty as last years chips and its all the fault of this proposed IR legislation..

Heavens to Murgatroyd, does anyone take the time to think before typing?

gtfpv · 16-11-2005, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

An children are dieing in Africa, and a car I owned once had rust, and old yeller didn't live forever, and there is no Santa Claus, and this years chips aren't as salty as last years chips and its all the fault of this proposed IR legislation..

Heavens to Murgatroyd, does anyone take the time to think before typing?

and when the new ir laws come in and the new fair pay commission is established and the industrial relations commitee abolished , and when the nurses get new AWA'S to sign . yeah i know what you mean. i couldn't see hospitals doing this good lord.

gtfpv · 16-11-2005, 10:46 PM

i wont post on this topic any more . i'll go back to cars.its what i like about the forums . and am less prone to get personall. cheers its been good to read peoples opinions and i hope the employers get some of thier unfair deals sorted out as well as employees .

jabba · 16-11-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

An children are dieing in Africa, and a car I owned once had rust, and old yeller didn't live forever, and there is no Santa Claus, and this years chips aren't as salty as last years chips and its all the fault of this proposed IR legislation..

Heavens to Murgatroyd, does anyone take the time to think before typing?

Yes mate I do think and that is why I type it out, To give you some idea off what alot off builders are like in there practices. CHEAP. Getting the idea. At the moment there are safty guide lines that must be followed and that will remain the same ( I see them broken every day however) but before you could make a call to the unioun and they would come out and pull the builder up on it. They can no longer just show up anymore They have to apply by letter to enter the site and give 2 weeks notice when they are coming... Call QLD health and safty and you will be lucky to see them the next day to sort out the danger..

So please Red, Stick to what you know, and it is not construction

XAGSV8 · 16-11-2005, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jabba

I would not laugh to much mate. I have had 2 work mates die on site because the builder was trying to save a few dollars. (I do mean only a few $. i.e $500-$1000) if you give a builder a inch he wont be happy with a mile, he'll want 20 off them. construction work is one off the most dangers occupations around, and when the unions say that it will cause more deaths in the building industry, I do believe it. With the comment you made I doubt you have ever worked on a large scale construction site ever. As I said I have lost 2 mates to Builders cutting corners just to save 500-$1000 and then in the event someone dies.

Mate firstly sorry about your 2 work mates. Secondly I worked on construction sites for about three years as an apprentice until I decided it was not for me. Thirdly when I say laugh I was been sarcastic.

MO · 17-11-2005, 09:45 PM

Just as an aside is'nt it interesting that Prue Goward,who was appointed by JH is coming out against the new regs.

RED_EL_XR8 · 17-11-2005, 09:52 PM

FFS, john give it a rest, or go post at lefties.org! Not every night, get a hobby!

MO · 17-11-2005, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

FFS, john give it a rest, or go post at lefties.org! Not every night, get a hobby!

I'm still reading gimme a break...you asked me to do it...now just wait patiently until i've read it and post an informed and considered opinion ...if in the meantime I happen to post a quirky little note...then please do not be offended....

Bossxr8 · 18-11-2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

FFS, john give it a rest, or go post at lefties.org! Not every night, get a hobby!

Take your own advice, all you have done is right everyone's opinions off because you think differently.

phoon · 18-11-2005, 09:46 PM

I remember as a young fella, my old man was a truckie. He had to do a delivery to a building site in Melbourne. A guy on the gate of the building site would not let him through the gate unless he paid his BLF dues. He was only delivering one load, never to return, and the union wouldnt let him in, even though he was already in the TWU. My, how the worm has turned, and in my opinion, for the better. Its easy, go to work, do your job, get paid, go home. If you dont like it, leave.

phoon · 18-11-2005, 10:03 PM

Just reading through the posts and Im amazed at how many of you dont get it. If you invested, lets say $1 mil in a business, how much return would you like to see on that. The bank will give you $50,000 a year in interest and you dont have anything to worry about or do anything. Maybe by taking a risk with your $mil, youd like 10% or $100k return and start a business. Not to much to ask is it, when you are the one risking it all and employing Australians. No, I tell you what, I will give it to my workers instead, have nothing left to reinvest, give my workers more days off than any other country in the world, with pay, oh yeah and whilst they are on holidays, I will pay them 17% more than if they were at work making something, I will fall behind in technology, let the chinese copy my product and pay there workers the equivalant of $80 aussie dollars PER MONTH. Then when I close the doors and my employees become unemployed, I will blame the government. Sound familiar? Wake up. We live in the luckiest country in the world and I still cant work out how we compete with everybody else.

deesun · 18-11-2005, 10:33 PM

The only way you compete with a third world country is to pay third world rates of pay which is obviously what the Howard Government wants. Then your $1 million dollar buisiness will be worthless because we wont be able to afford whatever it is you sell.

MYV8 · 19-11-2005, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoon

Just reading through the posts and Im amazed at how many of you dont get it. If you invested, lets say $1 mil in a business, how much return would you like to see on that. The bank will give you $50,000 a year in interest and you dont have anything to worry about or do anything. Maybe by taking a risk with your $mil, youd like 10% or $100k return and start a business. Not to much to ask is it, when you are the one risking it all and employing Australians. No, I tell you what, I will give it to my workers instead, have nothing left to reinvest, give my workers more days off than any other country in the world, with pay, oh yeah and whilst they are on holidays, I will pay them 17% more than if they were at work making something, I will fall behind in technology, let the chinese copy my product and pay there workers the equivalant of $80 aussie dollars PER MONTH. Then when I close the doors and my employees become unemployed, I will blame the government. Sound familiar? Wake up. We live in the luckiest country in the world and I still cant work out how we compete with everybody else.

Well said.

I thought not being able to compete with the Chinese imports was only a temporary setback for my business, after all I have planted some money trees out the back and when the drought breaks I will be laughing.

Seriously though, while either government allows imports from countries with no OH&S or decent work and pay conditions, it is impossible for Australian manufacturers to compete on price and I believe a lot of small manufactures will cease to exist, unless something is done.
I could import one of my products and sell it for less than it costs me to make, but I prefer to employ Australians. (Although this is becoming difficult.)
I believe that sacrifices need to be made on both sides, if manufacturing in Australia is to survive.