Wheels COTY

[vztrt]

Well here's a review of the XR8 ute:

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/550...ute-road-test/

Interestingly though, it’s the performance at the rear that surprises most.

The ute’s back-end is a Hotchkiss leaf spring solid axle set-up… it’s ancient, the type that’s best for carrying loads—it’s not supposed to be ‘up to the mark’ for performance driving. But it is.

Logic says a ute should not hang on this well. It says that physics should take over when powering on through a tightening turn while placing 520Nm onto the tarmac via a live back axle. Logic says that the back—there is, after all, just a tub sitting above the rear wheels—should begin to dictate terms and have a crack at overtaking the front. But it doesn’t. The XR8 just sits hard and flat.

[ehast13]

I drove the latest Honda Accord Euro today. It is really nice. Since tariffs have come down we can buy some serious machines for minimum dollars. I drove both the luxury auto and the standard spec in a manual. I can report this...

The manual is so light and easy to use it makes the tremec in the ford seem like an old M21

The clutch is the lightest i've felt since the old 1987-1991 pulsars.

Noticeably less raod noise than the latest mazda six.

A bit more chuckable than an FG XT

Suprisingly quick in a manual. Not as torqueless down low as I suspected.

Fit and Finish is first rate. For 32,990 it is a really good buy.

Apart from straightline performance, the Accord Euro is a strong competitor against against fg. you'd have to buy a G6 tho, the xt is fast in a straightline but doesn't feel as 'nice' as the accord. I guess if it had 400nm of torque it might mess up the handling a bit but it doesn't, so the chassis is tip top. Good turn in, doesn't feel nose heavy, completely neutral. Never loses front end grip. I floored it in second gear and half a turn of lock and it didn't understeer.

Had another drive of the Uncles' V6 accord. It beats a Stocko BA xt. we lined up the two and the honda V6 had the BA four times from four (not by much). The V6 is nowhere near as chuckable as the euro. It is not awful but even the BA feels pretty sporty compared to Accord V6.

I think that if WCOTY was about finding best sports sedan then G6ET and XR6 tubo would walk away with it. But 148kw is enough for many buyers and the Euro is WAY WAY better than I expected.

I'm still getting an XT as next company car, tho (my choice). Looks like a taxi (a BFII taxi) but they can't spring for any more. I'm getting a red one and alloys are now standard!!!!

If it were my money, I might get the cheaper Euro and be happy in the knowledge that my wife and kids would love it, it would have decent resale and would still look relatively classy in ten years time. With the money I'd save over buying an XT, I'd buy an XF ute and have some fun.

Please, tho. No more arguments about how the falcon is more economical than an accord. I flogged it for an hour, did only 44kms (lots of stop start) and still average 10.1 L/100 kms. I couldn't beleive that it did so well. If it can match the Accord V6 ecomomy on the highway then it would have to be one the most economical family sized cars (okay not falcon size but upper medium/lower large) on the market today. Honda's have always has a reputation for economy and despite how economical the new FG is, i doubt it will match an Accord Euro around town or an Accord V6 on the highway. If you want to argue economy, buy a prius, audi A3 Diesel etc. Being economical 'for a falcon' or economical 'compared to the commodore' is not a great argument and also not the reason we love the falcon. 400ish nm is why the falcon rocks, 533nm is why the turbo rocks.


It has been buggin' me for a week, so I had to drive one. I intended to bag it out but was surprised. I won't be buying one anytime soon (I'd rather spend 33k on a falcon 2 door, BA GT, Mustang or 66 xf falcons), but I'd recommend it to anyone.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by mcnews

You might have driven some cars but you know very little.
The ute breaks away at the rear later than the sedan, we had both for many years... It is also easier to control when it brakes away due to its geometry.

McNews, tell me where I said that the rear of the ute breaks away early, and I will accept your challenge to my span of knowledge. I don't know everything, nor do I try to make out that I do. In Fact I agree that the utes do feel somewhat more laterally stable that what I ever would have expected. So, I beleive that my original quote was:

"the leaf springs are great for carrying loads et al, but driving one hard through corners is horrible, they rock and roll and have no rear stability over bumps etc etc."


Now does that not sound similar to your point of view as per below???

this is where the ute falls down with the leafs, but only on really crap surfaces.

Do we both know very little?

Please, PLEASE read my posts again before you go belittling my knowledge. I do not believe that I am ill-informed, we've had falcon utes and sedans of every ilk (GL to XR to Ghia to Fairlane etc etc) from when I was just a little child. Hell, my first car was an XG XR6 Ute. When I'm not in the Clio, I'm in our BF 1 tonner SR; A true Workhorse. As you say, you can carry loads and you use it like a ute should be used. Which is EXACTLY what I said... Though I know very little

Guys, I'm NOT BAGGING the FG, I'm simply stating my opinion from my drive experiences that may or may not be confirmed by those who actually own them. People flare up too easily and jump to the assumption that I'm belittling the blue oval. I'm just trying to offer some non biased opinion. Simple

Anyway, congrats on the F6 ute Mcnews, I bet it's a fantastic steer, I admire the cars, I really really do, The F6 is a great drive. however to me they feel slightly wishy washy and rolly in the rear (however this coming from someone whose primary vehicle is a stiff hard riding cup tuned go cart so this is hardly surprising), especially the nose heavy XR8 Utes.

[kpcart]

The Falcon lost fair and sqaure in the way Wheels judges this, Falcon fanboys should realise how this judged and realise it doesnt represent a definitive car of the year, but a car of the year that falls within set guidelines to win the award. Still, I guess this award means serious business if there are so many people complaining about the result, so its quite funny seeing people taking it personally.

The strange thing is, there are falcon drivers bagging a honda accord and its engine specs, yet there are so many people that feel so comfortable driving an accord, and would genuinly choose an accord over a falcon, that is very telling, there are too many aspects that make up a car and what a driver wants out of it, obviously what falcon drivers want out of a car isnt necesarily what every other driver on the road wants out of a car. So, respect to whoever gets the Wheels Car of the Year.

BTW, i am Falcon driver (Old ED on lpg, which im quite happy with), and i hate the new falcons looks, the BA was nicer to look at, had a tougher more authoritative look to it, i think the BF is a pathetic attempt at copying Holdens VE styling cues and trying to make it better, and it is an epic fail for me, the VE commodore is much nicer then the falcon to look at. And if i were to buy either of the 2, id buy a commodore v8 because it looks better, and has a better engine then the lousy boss v8 (i keep my cars stock, so i dont want to hear replies about how you can modify it to make it better)

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by kpcart

, the BA was nicer to look at, had a tougher more authoritative look to it, i think the BF is a pathetic attempt at copying Holdens VE styling cues and trying to make it better, and it is an epic fail for me, the VE commodore is much nicer then the falcon to look at.

It's just as well the FG has been launched then isn't it ?

The 'pathetic BF' looked very similair to the BA don't you think ? : :

How's school ?

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Danny

"the leaf springs are great for carrying loads et al, but driving one hard through corners is horrible, they rock and roll and have no rear stability over bumps etc etc."

I have a BF2 RTV. It doesn't rock and roll over rough surfaces, nor does it lose stability. Its rough and it crashes over bumps but its still a much better ride than any of the 4X2 kidney belt not supplied Thai built utes.

WCOTY however does not include commercial vehicles. The falcon ute could come out with leaf springs all round, a 189ci carby 6, drum brakes and a bench seat out of a Kingswood and it would not effect the Wheels judging team one bit

[falcom]

I think the Honda Euro is a good car but there are two big negatives for me.

1) It only runs on premium fuel which is about 10% more expensive.Taking this into account its fuel running costs would be about as much as a Falcon whilst having less Power/Performance than the Falcon

2) Services are every 10,000 km/6 Months,when 15,000km/12 Months is becoming the Norm.

Taking these two things into account the running costs of the medium size Euro will be very close to a large size Falcon/Commodore.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

I have a BF2 RTV. It doesn't rock and roll over rough surfaces

Again, never said that it rocked and rolls over hard surfaces, I said it gets unstable on rough surfaces especially mid corner..... as for it not rocking and rolling, throw one into alternating corners at speed (especially an RTV) and then get back to me.

Like I said, I've driven the cars THOROUGHLY. I have made my own observations, and based them on my expectations of what a performance handling vehicle (IE XR and FPV models.. which are tuned to be sportier with less a ute payload) should be capable of. Deal with them. They're observations and opinions which I have a right to. JUST AS WHEELS MAG DOES....

Would love to have seen your reactions If VE had failed WCOTY... Horses for courses.

[ehast13]

accord euro prefers premium (just like turbo, xr8 etc) but readily runs on anything as low as 87 RON (much lower than our worst 91RON standard unleaded). Many Honda Aus (all???) have recently announced free servicing for the first 12 months/20000km on ALL honda vehicles.

Take into account resale value and Accord gets ahead again

[OZQUAD44]

You'll find that most modern cars will run lower grade fuel (just like turbo, xr8 etc). The knock sensors drag enough timing out of the motors for them to run fine. It ain't just a Honda trick. (I'm not bagging Hondas BTW)

It just if you want the best performance and mileage our of your rig, you run it on the fuel it was designed for.

[Cobalt Blue]

You'll also find, ehast13, that 87 RON (Road Octane Number) gasoline/petrol as sold in the USA and Canada is in fact equivalent to 91 RON (Research Octane Number) petrol sold in Australia and Europe. This is because the Americans take an average of the higher Research Octane Number and the lower Motor Octane Number (MON) to calculate their "RON". The Accord would be having a very hard time if the fuel were 87 RON Research Octane Number.

[Chilla]

Ho Hum, I just can't imagine hooking up my 2000kg caravan to a Honda Euro and taking off to Queensland. How many so called family cars, mainly imports, do you see towing vans/boats etc, and battling to maintain 80kph on the highway because they are grossly overloaded beyond the manufacturers recommendation. Towing capacity/ability should also be a COTY requisite. This is a 'safety' concern and is visible on our roads every holiday period of the year.
To make this part of COTY, Wheels would need to have vehicles tested towing a rig to the maximum level of the manufacturers recommended loading. Again this would need to be split between commercial, 4x4 and sedan type vehicles and differing manufacturers load ratings. This would test the strenght of chassis and road holding dynamics, brakes, engine power and response times, economy, etc, more so than most of the present set criteria used.
In the meantime....horses for courses! If your happy to drive a Honda, pay extra for spares and servicing, insurance and whatever, be my guest. Me, I'll stick with my AU Monty, and when its done 602000kms, like my old EF (still going strong), I'll buy myself an G6E. It won't be a 'Wheels influenced' decision I can ensure you!
Keep safe lads...whatever you drive!

[ehast13]

What percentage of owners tow 2000kg caravans? Just a thought. By that reasoning, I'll hook a up a 32foot Viscount triaxle van to the G6E and... wait.. Since we are talking tow vehicles then the new V8 landcruiser should win COTY. Damn wheels bias...

[Chilla]

Originally Posted by Chilla

Ho Hum, I just can't imagine hooking up my 2000kg caravan to a Honda Euro and taking off to Queensland. How many so called family cars, mainly imports, do you see towing vans/boats etc, and battling to maintain 80kph on the highway because they are grossly overloaded beyond the manufacturers recommendation. Towing capacity/ability should also be a COTY requisite. This is a 'safety' concern and is visible on our roads every holiday period of the year.
To make this part of COTY, Wheels would need to have vehicles tested towing a rig to the maximum level of the manufacturers recommended loading. Again this would need to be split between commercial, 4x4 and sedan type vehicles and differing manufacturers load ratings. This would test the strenght of chassis and road holding dynamics, brakes, engine power and response times, economy, etc, more so than most of the present set criteria used.
In the meantime....horses for courses! If your happy to drive a Honda, pay extra for spares and servicing, insurance and whatever, be my guest. Me, I'll stick with my AU Monty, and when its done 602000kms, like my old EF (still going strong), I'll buy myself an G6E. It won't be a 'Wheels influenced' decision I can ensure you!
Keep safe lads...whatever you drive!

Ehast13
You may have read my post but obviously your comprehension slipped a bit. Read it again....slowly.

[Luke Plaizier]

Can I ask,

How many 'models' are in the total range of each car that got to compete in the finalists for WCOTY? Given that they were all imports, are there 'lower' models in the ranges overseas that weren't considered in the WCOTY criteria because they're not sold in Oz?

Are the local brands now effectively being punished for having such a large model range? Shouldn't a manufacturer gain some reward for offering a larger range of models rather than be measured by the lowest model? I'm not sure I understand that one. It may well be that the G6ET or FPV mdels are better than anything in the finalists, but they aren't considered because of the XT. Nice.

I'm just as miffed that the VE Wagon wasn't allowed to participate, when 'structural and suspension' changes were all that were need for the AMG. And if AMG gets a guernsey as a separate model, then why not FPV or HSV?

Are we witnessing the systematic public stoning of Australian manufacturers?


Lukeyson

[Melz]

From what I understood the model variants of the Overseas contestants were tested....

[Chilla]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Can I ask,

How many 'models' are in the total range of each car that got to compete in the finalists for WCOTY? Given that they were all imports, are there 'lower' models in the ranges overseas that weren't considered in the WCOTY criteria because they're not sold in Oz?

Are the local brands now effectively being punished for having such a large model range? Shouldn't a manufacturer gain some reward for offering a larger range of models rather than be measured by the lowest model? I'm not sure I understand that one. It may well be that the G6ET or FPV mdels are better than anything in the finalists, but they aren't considered because of the XT. Nice.

I'm just as miffed that the VE Wagon wasn't allowed to participate, when 'structural and suspension' changes were all that were need for the AMG. And if AMG gets a guernsey as a separate model, then why not FPV or HSV?

Are we witnessing the systematic public stoning of Australian manufacturers?


Lukeyson

On reading your first question I would think there certainly are models of 'lower' range imports that are not tested here. But who would know for certain? Vehicles these days are manufactured in countries other than their countries of origin, and I would guess meet changes required for local design rules etc. Would they then be acceptable fare here under our ADR's?

Question two, the answer here would have to be ...'You would certainly think so'! Maybe base models vehicles should be looked at seperately in say a 'Fleet or Poverty' model range, and judged accordingly. This again points to maybe Wheels needing to re-assess the Coty criteria.

Question three, I agree, as indiginous models ( VE / HSV ) they should have been assessed. Even if only as 'late changes to model specification' and 'Specialist vehicle'.

Question three, One would certainly hope not. In these current times we are going to need every home grown manufacturer doing just that, and keeping 'our' population fully employed. Be it making cars, boats, caravans, planes, or just knitting socks and jumpers. The Federal government needs to put some of their stimilus packages into Australian companies to ensure this happens.
Journalists and the ilk who take delight in shooting down Aussie products for what ever reason, should take a good hard look at themselves. Wheels included. Or they could also find themselves looking for work.

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by Melz

From what I understood the model variants of the Overseas contestants were tested....

My point was, a lot of importers bring only the higher-spec models into Australia, so their full product range may not be available in Australia from local sellers.

So this means potentially that only the best cars from a given imported model will be up against the full-range of cars from a local maker. Now I'm not sure if this was actually the case with this years WCOTY, but it's worth some investigation.

Given that an AMG was permitted entry, and the rest of that range was not included, then you could speculate that WCOTY is not being fair in it's model range comparisons.

Besides this, I have long held that opinion local manufacturers should get an automatic entry in EVERY WCOTY.

Does anyone know if the Aurion and Camry were considered the same car when they were new? Or were they considered separately?


Lukeyson

[Matt P]

The manual is so light and easy to use it makes the tremec in the ford seem like an old M21


Mate of course it is it is a tiny little box try putting 310 kws through it and see how it holds up, horses for courses if the falcon was only 148 kws Im sure it would have a nice easy box too. If you had ever opened one of these up and had a look at how big the gears are I don't think it is doing a bad job the new TR6060 is a dream compared to the T56 I think its come a long way.

[ehast13]

OH, Sorry.

the award is not for best performance car or tow car. The manual is very nice to use in the accord. That doesn't mean it will lap faster than an F6 or is a better performance machine than an F6. I'm just saying that the car is nice to drive. Easier to drive than the FG. Not quicker, not more satisfying, just easier.

A lot of people like to drive cars that are easy to drive (even if they lack ultimate satisfaction). If you need more proof - see camry and corolla and aurion and kluger sales. Not me, I like big rear drive Fords. But I bet my wife and many other women (and blokes who like MOBY music and wheatgrass smoothies) would prefer the Honda.

Incidently - its the near 600nm of torque that limits gearbox life, not the 310kw. A high revving low torgue engine that produces 310kw but only 400nm of torque would keep a stocko T5 alive, whereas and 7.0 engine that produces a lazy 310kw but 630nm of torque would eat that gearbox.