The 6-Speed Showdown - Manual vs ZF Auto

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Steffo

My are you an angry old one. First of all, I don't have a playstation and have never owned one. :alien2:

So you've answered my original question, which was, have you driven one of these "new-age," automatics around a track in anger? The answer seems to be NO from what I can gather in your post. (See bold text) So how can you say that they're all going to act the same way? They do things that old auto's couldn't dream of. They hold gear during corners (and I DO know that, I've driven an FPV F6 Typhoon BF auto), the DB9 throttle blips/rev matches downshifts (I think the new 911 Turbo does too) etc etc.

I'll conceed I've never driven any of these on a track, though if/when I do get the oppotunity I will, but if you're so high and mighty about what you've done and experienced, yet you seemingly haven't thrashed a ZF equipped Falcon, let alone any of the other big-dollar metal, around a track, how can you say its going to be as bad as you are. What you described in one of your earlier posts about going off-track in an auto seemed like a great description of delayed kick down... plant it... no power... the computer goes "oh no wait a minute," downshifts, you didn't expect it, you're off. The new one's don't (shouldn't... again, I've only driven one on the street) do that, the computer should be thinking... "wait, we're in a corner... when we straighten up..." and then it kicks down a gear.

But it looks like we're both commenting on something neither of us have done - how the ZF FPV will perform on a race track. So how can either of us have a clue? Its all purely speculation. And if you think otherwise, that's blatant hypocracy.

Steffo, why doyou always go off on these tangents?
This thread has nothing to do with T5s, T3650s, getrags, C4s, porsches, ferarris, space shuttles or giraffes.
It is about T56 and ZF transmissions in Falcons. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
Mnay comments have been made about both, I have driven both many times. The ZF sometimes delays in change down in corners. I have experienced it as have others.
These are the transmission options of FPVs.
All new FPV buyers get at least one go on a track.
The kick down delay is the one drawback with the ZF. If you are not going to play hard on tracks then it will not be an issue.
As to my knowlege of how a ZF performes on a track? Driving around on tracks and watching them while following them through corners is enough to ensure that I dol not want to do it.

Now if you still do not get it and want to dribble rubbish about some auto in a $250,000 supercar the I give up.............

[Night Runner]

Do the ZF equipped V8s have a better response under the 3,000rpm mark with the new ratios and 6 gears? I remember both me and my Dads Shaker BA 4-Speeds were lacking response. That was my soul reason for for selling my BA, well, that and the tinny exhaust note. Black with low kms and a CRR? full body kit. Looked awesome but I hated driving it.

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by flappist

The ZF sometimes delays in change down in corners. I have experienced it as have others.

Would a shift kit in the ZF make any difference to the downshifting response?
Do they even make shift kits for the ZF yet?

[myxr6]

How much difference would it make if they made the 6 speed auto diff ratio 3.45 as per the manual instead of the 2.73 they come with ?

[Blue Brute]

Test drove the auto and bought a manual and would again ......but i don,t live in the city and don,t sit in traffic

[data_mine]

Originally Posted by myxr6

How much difference would it make if they made the 6 speed auto diff ratio 3.45 as per the manual instead of the 2.73 they come with ?

1st would become near useless. As it is already my GT-P will smoke em with just a throttle stab.

Having said that, I'd like to try, but until they can 'edit' the ZF's shift points will be ruined with a diff change.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by myxr6

How much difference would it make if they made the 6 speed auto diff ratio 3.45 as per the manual instead of the 2.73 they come with ?

F6 has 2.73, the GT has 2.9#.
I wouldn't touch my 2.73 its a fairly good match for a boosted car with a 6 speed auto.

[Bent8]

I believe all the ZF autos have a 2.73 final drive. Except the 3v V8's which run a 2.53 diff ratio.

Straight off the Ford Australia website...

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by Blue Brute

Test drove the auto and bought a manual and would again ......but i don,t live in the city and don,t sit in traffic

Exactly why I bought a manual. No city driving.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Steffo, why doyou always go off on these tangents?
This thread has nothing to do with T5s, T3650s, getrags, C4s, porsches, ferarris, space shuttles or giraffes.
It is about T56 and ZF transmissions in Falcons. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
Mnay comments have been made about both, I have driven both many times. The ZF sometimes delays in change down in corners. I have experienced it as have others.
These are the transmission options of FPVs.
All new FPV buyers get at least one go on a track.
The kick down delay is the one drawback with the ZF. If you are not going to play hard on tracks then it will not be an issue.
As to my knowlege of how a ZF performes on a track? Driving around on tracks and watching them while following them through corners is enough to ensure that I dol not want to do it.

Now if you still do not get it and want to dribble rubbish about some auto in a $250,000 supercar the I give up.............

The biggest reason I mention those "supercars," is because they too use ZF automatics. In fact, the DB9 uses the same 6HP26 as the FPV's do. Porsche's 911 uses the ZF 5HP19.

One would have to wonder, if the DB9 throttle blips and rev matches downshifts, and is using the same hardware as our Falcons, if it would be possible to make the Falcons do the same sort of thing....

[data_mine]

Originally Posted by Bent8

I believe all the ZF autos have a 2.73 final drive. Except the 3v V8's which run a 2.53 diff ratio.

Straight off the Ford Australia website...

Agreed, my GT-P has the 2.73 rear end.

[fordAU]

Interesting thread this one, I find it interesting that the overwhelming majority prefer the auto, beats me.

Nothing gives you the overall control and driveability of a manual not to mention the precision and fun factor which is further enhanced in a performance vehicle.

Not suggesting that the ZF is not a good box, it is a quality box, but it is just an auto and I find them incredibly boring.

[Night Runner]

The poll results were altered by a moderator. A childish ploy that I guess he/she thought would ruin the day....it's a forum lol how you can get upset on them I do not know. I guess if you can't beat them.....cheat. : The manuals were way ahead....guess we'll never know now. :

BTT - One other thing......nothing sounds better than a manual from inside or outside the car.
For instance, hearing one take off from a stop sign etc. That's my opinion anyway.

;)

[fordAU]

Originally Posted by '[ NZTS50

BTT - One other thing......nothing sounds better than a manual from inside or outside the car.
;)

Absolutely, good to see your T3 is a manual which enhances the driveability of a very desirable and capable vehicle.

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by fordAU

Absolutely, good to see your T3 is a manual which enhances the driveability of a very desirable and capable vehicle.

Thanks mate, I wouldn't have purchased it any other way. :evil3:

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by Bent8

I believe all the ZF autos have a 2.73 final drive.

Originally Posted by data_mine

Agreed, my GT-P has the 2.73 rear end.

Apologies guys you are both 100% correct, I did check the performance inc book and I was incorrect in saying they have 2.93......Both the F6 & GT have 2.73 with the auto.
manual 3.46 in the GT... and manual 3.73 in the F6.

[AUsome]

Originally Posted by fordAU

Interesting thread this one, I find it interesting that the overwhelming majority prefer the auto, beats me.

Nothing gives you the overall control and driveability of a manual not to mention the precision and fun factor which is further enhanced in a performance vehicle.

Not suggesting that the ZF is not a good box, it is a quality box, but it is just an auto and I find them incredibly boring.

Lets just say, it lets you concentrate more on other 'things' that may be going on inside the car :P

[jabba]

Saturday Night at Willowbank

F6 Typhoon ZF auto 13.55 @ 105
BA XR6T 5sp man 13.7 @103

Both cars were completely stock, right down to the air filter..... The XR was a freak and the air was crap with and RA of 1400 and 90% humidity... Weid this is we had and XR8 4sp auto with the exact same power output and it was .9 sec slower @98mph

[tim.white]

The 6 speed auto for sure. Not only quicker but the gear changes are so much smoother than previous autos. Driving the 6 speed auto feels like one continuous gear rather than 6 different ones.

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by jabba

Saturday Night at Willowbank

F6 Typhoon ZF auto 13.55 @ 105
BA XR6T 5sp man 13.7 @103

Both cars were completely stock, right down to the air filter..... The XR was a freak and the air was crap with and RA of 1400 and 90% humidity... Weid this is we had and XR8 4sp auto with the exact same power output and it was .9 sec slower @98mph

That's a real good time for a BA. :

[data_mine]

The 4spd auto didn't really suit the BOSS at all.

My best in the GT-P (with a sh!tload of stereo gear) is a 13.885 @ 103
2.35 60ft is killing me, got a lot of weight to get moving (car + stereo + me + 1/2 tank = 2060kg).

[Night Runner]

Whoa! That, is, a lot of weight - yikes!!

[SpoolMan]

Put mine on the weigh bridge last year race weight 1920 kgs.
spare and jack out, half a tank of fuel.

[Night Runner]

Man, these cars are whales!! 2 tonnes worth.......

[data_mine]

But they get up and go like a scalded cat / zirtek / <insertfunnyhere>

Make you wonder what short of HSV killers we'd have if Ford had managed to keep them lighter, we've been heavier than Commodores for many years. At least we don't fall apart.

[Quadcams]

Manual all the way for me street or strip, driven the 6sp great auto but still boring in my eyes.
Give me a clutch anyday, if you know how to drive a manual to its potential there's not alot in it, just there not many people willing to have a real go at it. There's many factors what can make a manual slower get them right and your right on the autos ***.

People look at stats seeing only a few manuals hae done this or that but realy do they consider how many people can actually drive a manual to its potential consistantly, that alone just blows them stats out of the water, almost cant even compare.

Manuals rule!!! :

You auto drivers are just lazy, get off ya backside and have a go would ya. :

[Bent8]

I like the idea that since we only have 2 feet that we should only have 2 pedals...makes sense to me

Even race cars have electronic clutches these days with paddle shift...why, because a human can't change gears quicker than a computer and you can keep both hands on the wheel (very important in racing) aswell.

I wish my auto had buttons behind the wheel for the tiptronic shift just like the the AMG Mercs.

[data_mine]

those with the tiptronic BTR's and ZF's should be able to wire up some extra controls. just extend some wires from the shifter sensors, and add some extra switches.

[Polyal]

Is that not the joy of driving? Perfecting you shifts? Matching the Revs?

I think alot of people have just gotten old or lazy, and so be it.

But for those that enjoy the full experience of driving, then a manual with a clutch you control is the only way to go. Otherwise you just steering, or playing a PS2.

edit: Thought I should add this. Ive driven heaps of ZF's, and its easily the best auto out there, problem is the T56 is a POS. But I would still take it everytime, unless I had some illness that prevented me from doing it myself.

Anyone else here done that V8Supercar Experience? Wow, that would be heaps of fun in an auto

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Anyone else here done that V8Supercar Experience? Wow, that would be heaps of fun in an auto

LMAO!!! : Yeah, exactly! I have owned a few cars in my young life but I still believe that you POINT an Auto and DRIVE a Manual. People seem to forget too that Autos sound like crap unless they are purebred track cars, shift kits, high stalls race bands etc.....even then it still sounds plops. Hear a manual on the street, track or where-ever and it sounds soooooooo much better. Going through gears, no lagging slop sound between gears.......

Imagine if the V8 Supercar series had automatics. LOL Here comes Lowndes.....here comes Lowndes, here comes lowndes, he pit stops, he selects [N] on the automatic gear selector. Pit stop over, he puts the car back into [D] and drives off again....his left foot can now rest until the end of the race.


:the_finge