Future of Ford and Holden Could be Revealed in Detroit this week

[Windsor220]

Problem with AWD is it will put Falcon at about 2 tonnes. Fuel consumption will be worse and so will straight line performance with the weight and driveline loss.

How will they fit a V8 in the east west configuration?

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Problem with AWD is it will put Falcon at about 2 tonnes. Fuel consumption will be worse and so will straight line performance with the weight and driveline loss.

How will they fit a V8 in the east west configuration?

The only hope is that the new platform will be the CD4 which will replace the EUCD for Mondeo and the CD3 for Fusion - and there has been some talk of moving the next Taurus (which one suspects would be our Falcon if it moves to FWD/AWD) also being based on a stretched version of this platform - the hope is that this platform is a lot lighter than the current D4?

[FPV GTHO]

Falcon is already at about 2 tonnes. We can see with Territory that if the architecture is already suited for AWD, which ive heard Falcon in one form or another has been now since BA, that the extra mechanicals for AWD are less than 100kg over RWD.

[banarcus]

The Falcon sedan will go down the same way as the wagon and Fairlane/LTD. Same ol same ol until the buyer deserts the model to then make way for FoMoCo to introduce a more profitable product. This how Ford Aust. operate. And I almost forgot, the Falcon utility will also make way for the updated Ranger.

There are less and less die hards each year. Unfortunately for the Aussie auto media and those die hards that remain, the Falcon sedan and utility have largely been abandoned and therefore less relevant.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

The issue is, for all you AWD fans, that the AWD system that would be used on a future Ford large car would be a front wheel drive biased system from an east-west engine. It WON'T be a RWD biased system like the Territory with the traditional inline engine and trans configuration.

Essentially, it will be an oversized Camry with a bit of drive effort going to the rears.

This point interests me: how do you know/what makes you think that the awd system on a Taurus based Falcon would be FWD biased, and not beretuned/have a different bias?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

This point interests me: how do you know/what makes you think that the awd system on a Taurus based Falcon would be FWD biased, and not beretuned/have a different bias?

They are doing it to save money, not make a soft road vehicle or be "fully hektic".

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by flappist

They are doing it to save money, not make a soft road vehicle or be "fully hektic".

Does anyone know what the split is on the AWD TT Taurus?

The moves Mullaly's Fomoco has made in the last few years indicate that what they're doing is to spend their money more wisely, not just flat out penny pinching. I think it's unfair to assume the new Falcon would be 'pox' just because it isn't RWD.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

This point interests me: how do you know/what makes you think that the awd system on a Taurus based Falcon would be FWD biased, and not beretuned/have a different bias?

The standard Toreass is FWD only, and both the FWD and AWD Taurus has a transverse powertrain layout; the combination of those two factors leads to the irrefutable conclusion that it will be FWD biased.

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

The standard Toreass is FWD only, and both the FWD and AWD Taurus has a transverse powertrain layout; the combination of those two factors leads to the irrefutable conclusion that it will be FWD biased.

I'll guess they'll have to resort to some electronic trickery to get a FWD-based system to send most of its power to the rear wheels then.

Its not a completely 'out there' idea as the new Explorer uses some trick driveline-oil cooling systems and electronics to make it a full-time AWD system as opposed to an 'on demand' system that is FWD until it senses slip. Ford are also making noises about Lincoln having a different AWD to Ford to further differentiate the luxury models (Lincoln may even go all AWD). Maybe the next Falcon could use the Lincoln AWD system if it gives a more rear-bias drive?

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

The standard Toreass is FWD only, and both the FWD and AWD Taurus has a transverse powertrain layout; the combination of those two factors leads to the irrefutable conclusion that it will be FWD biased.

But it isn't un-doable engineering wise, and it isn't unfathomable that Ford choose to change the bias for a product to suit it's audience/purpose (as per the Explorer as chiliman stated)

[DFB FGXR6]

The "bias" isnt the only consideration. It will be a east-west engine layout, meaning only I4 and V6 engines and NO V8's. So no GT ect as we know it. I know V8's are only make up minor sales, but the availability of said engine is what defines the Falcon. Is suppose the the big disadvantage of FWD/AWD will mean the end of a range of grunty engine selections.

I think the Falcon and Territiory as we know it will be the new generation Tauris/Explorer based , the ute will be taken over by the Ranger and FPV and V8 product will be in the form of the Mustang, thus giving RWD for the enthusiasts. The biggest question for me is will these new FWD/AWD products be made in Australia? And if you look at the "One-Ford" mantra of reducing model dupliucation, then why tool up multiple factories, especially in high labour cost countries, to build the same cars?

Hope I am proven otherwise and the Falcon remains RWD, becuase its one of few things that makes me own, and want buy another. I would probably look at (better built) makes in the future with no RWD or Aussie made Fords.

[FPV]

Again I think we have totally looked past our own forum's sources and gone ahead and trusted the journalists. Now they won't tell exactly what is happening, there is alot at stake, but judging by the hints, the journalists aren't exactly on the right track.

I have been monitoring the american Ford insiders as well, and over the past few days, there has been a heavy mention of Australia keeping a type of RWD vehicle (Falcon or Mustang).

I think this post should be read in addition to some of the posts in this thread:

Originally Posted by wescoent

So, word from the inside...

No decision has been made yet, either way, except that Ford of Australia will no matter what, still have a RWD car to sell. Options include upgrading the current Falcon, getting the Mustang, or getting a Mustang-based sedan and coupe with 'Falcon' styling on the front and back end.

There are some within Ford who believe the Australian large RWD market is not big enough for two companies to compete profitably, so there's wonder whether or not it's worth continuing to pour money in a segment that might be moribund by 2020.

Maybe the Ford officials were not lying in regards to decision making? Maybe in 6 months we will actually have a clearer picture.

For me personally, I know I will be purchasing a G6E Turbo or equivilent model in a few years, so to me I guess I would like some reassurance that it will still be around, its probably the reason why I watch in particular what certain posters say.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Falcon is already at about 2 tonnes. We can see with Territory that if the architecture is already suited for AWD, which ive heard Falcon in one form or another has been now since BA, that the extra mechanicals for AWD are less than 100kg over RWD.

They sure spent a lot of money on that fancy new Virtual Pivot™ front suspension for the FG for just one model run. Whilst it is very similar to the Territory design it has all those sexy lightweight alloy parts, and isn't it strange how long those new front knuckles are - it's as if they were made for a driveshaft to go in there

[tranquilized]

Man this thread is going around in circles...

No one knows IF the Falcon will move away from RWD to AWD in the future.

But,

One thing we do know, is that if it does, it will definitely be a system based on a FWD car. So, no more V8's, no more utes, most likely no more FPV.

I did a quick search and found this info about the Haldex system used by SAAB which I assume Ford is using in the Taurus; (although someone might correct me on that)

The XWD system can transmit 100 percent of available torque to either the front or rear wheels. However, for those conditions to occur one end of the vehicle would have to lose all traction, like driving on ice for instance. During a standing start the rear wheels are put to use, without the need for any slip to occur. Then under straight-line cruising conditions, to conserve fuel and driveline wear, the torque split to the rear wheels is reduced to a level between 5 and 10 percent. Also up to 85 percent of torque can be transferred by the eLSD between to any single rear wheel if necessary. The system can adjust torque splits based on calculated conditions, such as those that indicate an aggressive lane change manoeuvre, to effectively reduce oversteer or understeer without any wheel slip occurring. In the event that some wheel slip does actually get to occur, the system can react more timely and efficiently than in the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction


So it wouldn't be all bad news. It would be a better car than we have now in almost all respects, just without all the heritage, uniqueness, and V8 performance...

[Franco Cozzo]

Just because there is a transverse layout, doesnt mean you cant have V8. GM's northstar v8 is in a transverse FWD setup in the Cadillac SLS.

Personally, I'd rather see the Falcon and Territory dead in exchange for the Explorer, Taurus and the F series reasobably priced in our market.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Just because there is a transverse layout, doesnt mean you cant have V8. GM's northstar v8 is in a transverse FWD setup in the Cadillac SLS.

Personally, I'd rather see the Falcon and Territory dead in exchange for the Explorer, Taurus and the F series reasobably priced in our market.

Really Damo?

I am not a falcon die hard by any means and basically will give any new vehicle a chance, but I like Falcons and respect them enough to understand that it would be an absolute tragedy If we lost Falcon for three horrid overstyled American boxy chrome covered sh.tters.

American vehicles make me reel. They are like 90's cars, even the new ones. Not even the mustang could replace Falcon in my eyes, I don't like the new Mustang either.

If anything we should get Ford UK's line up here. Its no lie that almost every Ford US vehicle that they tried to sell here had failed, while the Ford UK vehicles are selling and have sold very well.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Danny

American vehicles make me reel. They are like 90's cars, even the new ones.

Really Danny? You haven't driven one have you? - actually, take the question mark off there. So in your little world, a 2010 Taurus is just like an ED Falcon!

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Personally, I'd rather see the Falcon and Territory dead in exchange for the Explorer, Taurus and the F series reasobably priced in our market.

Change F series for Mustang and maybe i'd agree with you. Would still prefer both cars to go the global route in a more favourable position to Falcons heritage though.

[jpd80]

Australia is a country of 22 million people, we sell just on 1 million vehicles a year so the fact that
Falcon sedan and pick up combined sales are around 3,000-3,500/month is quite acceptable.
No matter what changes are made to a future Falcon, it will never again be a 50,000-80,000/year car.
What's more important is how the imported Fords are failing to compete and deliver good sales.

That Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo and Escape all sell at or way below 1,000/mth is grounds for concern.
Transit has up to 4 months waiting list and auto trans not available on some models - poor sales.
That we have no competitor to Toyota Prado's 4,000/mth sales is even more concerning.
That we have no Tarago or Hiace or landcruiser competitors all adds up to lack of presence.

[morak001]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Australia is a country of 22 million people, we sell just on 1 million vehicles a year so the fact that
Falcon sedan and pick up combined sales are around 3,000-3,500/month is quite acceptable.
No matter what changes are made to a future Falcon, it will never again be a 50,000-80,000/year car.
What's more important is how the imported Fords are failing to compete and deliver good sales.

That Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo and Escape all sell at or way below 1,000/mth is grounds for concern.
Transit has up to 4 months waiting list and auto trans not available on some models - poor sales.
That we have no competitor to Toyota Prado's 4,000/mth sales is even more concerning.
That we have no Tarago or Hiace or landcruiser competitors all adds up to lack of presence.

Thankyou for a different perspective on things, also shows that the numbers the ??journos?? (or whatever they are called) can be manipulated to mean anything. Au is a unique market and to remove Falcon RWD would , I believe, diminish market presence for Ford, they would be nothing more than a Hyundi at best (no hero model like Mitubishi/nissan/subaru has) unless Mustang lands here..

Ford would recognise this and (hopefully) consider how this fits into their desired corporate image.

But then again if they are only concerned about cash..(short term/long term?)

[munners]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Personally, I'd rather see the Falcon and Territory dead in exchange for the Explorer, Taurus and the F series reasobably priced in our market.

I believe there is a fairly strong argument for this. Look at the 2011 Territory for example. Its clear and direct competitor would be the 2011 Explorer. They are both reasonably sized SUVs, seat 5-7, similar power and can be in 2WD or AWD configuration (and lets face it, if you're buying the 2WD you are probably not the kind of persons who cares if its FWD or RWD)

But look at all the extra stuff an explorer has, Terrain Management System (same as Landrover use), powerfolding third row seats, the cool MyFord Touch system, all the safety systems like trailer sway control, cross lane monitor, collision warning systems.

This is all really good gear and when you use it then come back and look at whats we have it makes a lot of our stuff look like its hanging around from the 90's and all for 30k -40k USD

Munners

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Australia is a country of 22 million people, we sell just on 1 million vehicles a year so the fact that
Falcon sedan and pick up combined sales are around 3,000-3,500/month is quite acceptable.
No matter what changes are made to a future Falcon, it will never again be a 50,000-80,000/year car.
What's more important is how the imported Fords are failing to compete and deliver good sales.

That Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo and Escape all sell at or way below 1,000/mth is grounds for concern.
Transit has up to 4 months waiting list and auto trans not available on some models - poor sales.
That we have no competitor to Toyota Prado's 4,000/mth sales is even more concerning.
That we have no Tarago or Hiace or landcruiser competitors all adds up to lack of presence.

And to add some more comparitive info, last November Ford US sold just 4339 Taurus. (edit: Mustang sold 4472)
On a pro-rata comparison that would equate to Ford Australia selling 309 Falcon's per month, that's right just 309. (US pop is approx 309mill vs Aust 22mill.)
Or to show the opposite, if Ford US sold as many Taurus on a pro-rata level as Falcon then they should be selling over 39,000 Taurus' per month to match the Falcon's rate here.

So really which car is underperforming when you consider you cannot buy an LPG Falcon or XR8 which would add substantial more sales to Falcon?

And as jpd80 quite clearly pointed out Falcon isn't the sole headache, it's across the board, eg. no auto Transit thanks to Europe and so Aust Post tender could not even be entered into having had it over 2 model generations. If you have an average presence in every segment you actually have a huge volume of sales overall.

Source of sales: Big thanks to ausrutherford: http://www.fordinsidenews.com/forums...ales-Breakdown

[ivorya]

Sh_t! Why the complaining about a FWD car. If they put that Revo-nuckle on it, and it steers and handles like the current and future Focus RS, I'm sure we'll all be happy.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

And as jpd80 quite clearly pointed out Falcon isn't the sole headache, it's across the board, eg. no auto Transit thanks to Europe and so Aust Post tender could not even be entered into having had it over 2 model generations. If you have an average presence in every segment you actually have a huge volume of sales overall.

Source of sales: Big thanks to ausrutherford: http://www.fordinsidenews.com/forums...ales-Breakdown

Exactly, what we as fans need to do is keep in mind the relativity of falcon, Ute and Territory,
they play an important role but cannot be the only vehicles selling worth a damn, Fiesta and Focus
have to be given an opportunity to shine and be competitive, Thailand offers that chance.
I would like to think that whatever platform or strategy is chosen, that Mondeo/Falcon/Territory
type products continue to be built, whether that's on a new and improved RWd or a CD4 Global FWd/AWD platform.
If ford can get that right and import Kuga, T6 Ranger and its SUV companion, I think they'll do better.

[UKXR8]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Sh_t! Why the complaining about a FWD car. If they put that Revo-nuckle on it, and it steers and handles like the current and future Focus RS, I'm sure we'll all be happy.

Um, sorry no.
I want a big RWD V8, call me a dinosaur but that is what I want.
If I wanted a Focus (don't get me wrong they are a great little car) I'd go and get one. But I don't... I want a tyre frying RWD V8.
It really is that simple, there is no logic behind it, its an emotional thing and I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who feel the same way.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by UKXR8

Um, sorry no.
I want a big RWD V8, call me a dinosaur but that is what I want.
If I wanted a Focus (don't get me wrong they are a great little car) I'd go and get one. But I don't... I want a tyre frying RWD V8.
It really is that simple, there is no logic behind it, its an emotional thing and I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who feel the same way.

V8 fans may well feel that way but when it comes to laying down
the $60,000 for a new one, they disappear real quick.

Even laying down nearly $50,000 for the previous XR8 was too
much for a lot of fans. In fact, a lot of the V8 fans wanting a
new V8 don't intend buying it, they'll wait and buy second hand.....

[Danny]

Originally Posted by chevypower

Really Danny? You haven't driven one have you? - actually, take the question mark off there. So in your little world, a 2010 Taurus is just like an ED Falcon!

Look Jimbob, I tried to draft a reply, but my staunch anti Americanism would have seen me banned and sent to share a cell with Julian Assange....

[jpd80]

I'd suggest that all Ford fans take a step back and realise these articles for what they are,
the press drilling for an emotional response from staunch blue oval supporters, they do this every year.

Search your minds and look at the Falcons you admire at the moment, the people who designed those
vehicles are asking you the fans to trust them, that whatever design they decide is best will be best.

This is why they are taking an eternity to decide and put up the best possible case going forward,
they know what vehicles you like and will be designing vehicles with similar or better characteristics.

I would suggest for our own mental hygene to trust that Ford Austraila has the buyer's best
interests at heart and will develop a vehicle that Holden will struggle to counter, that's a fact.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

will develop a vehicle that Holden will struggle to counter, that's a fact.

It's Toyota they are more interested in, Holden less so. Considering the global nature of this large car plan of course.

I am more concerned with the damage that Drive's reporting is doing to the brand and scaring customers away. They hounded the 380 to death. Then again Ford also needs to work on its build quality and dealer attitude as this has cost Ford just as many sales in recent years from the "once bitten twice shy" brigade. All the new whizz-bang global platforms won't mean jack if consumers won't trust Ford cars or Ford anyore.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

It's Toyota they are more interested in, Holden less so. Considering the global nature of this large car plan of course.

I am more concerned with the damage that Drive's reporting is doing to the brand and scaring customers away. They hounded the 380 to death. Then again Ford also needs to work on its build quality and dealer attitude as this has cost Ford just as many sales in recent years from the "once bitten twice shy" brigade. All the new whizz-bang global platforms won't mean jack if consumers won't trust Ford cars or Ford anyore.

I think it was quite strange for Jay Mays to speak about plans going forward when a
decision was still pending, why would he do that when everyone else is so tight lipped?

He sits on and reviews the projects at several stages, his saying "If they decide on AWD"
almost sounded like an after thought, maybe he was counting on the Aussie press missing it...

I go with JPFR1's catch of the day, the press just got played by Ford........