Industrial relations worker legislation (end of an era) your thoughts

[MO]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

we shut down an entire national essential service for 8 hours. something i'm not proud of but my employers like swinging the hammer . and support the liberals hands down . i hope this tells them where thier profits are coming from , next time they hand johnny thier cheque . and the only reason i haven't been sacked is because the good the bad the ugly and the beatiful employees follwed me and others out the gate.and it wasn't a strike . but everyone coincidentely had personal day leave.unpaid. that is what talks .that is what will bring johnny back down

UNITY Comrade...Unity

[deesun]

The next popularity poll should tell a few tales now that the campaign has started in earnest and more and more Joe Publics get to know how bad these laws really are.

Good on you fpvgt.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by John McMaster

UNITY Comrade...Unity

You are clearly in the wrong continent in the wrong decade!

[RED_EL_XR8]

Just the one question while everyone is foaming at the mouth? who of you have read any of the legislation? Simple Question?

[MO]

NO RED if the truth be known I am a man before my time...as much as you and I will never see eye to eye...the truth is out there and will be revealed soon enough.

History is on my side!

[MO]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Just the one question while everyone is foaming at the mouth? who of you have read any of the legislation? Simple Question?

OK Red I see where you are coming from but have you had the chance to read the legislation...because even the pollies heads are reeling trying to keep up with the big push.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Just the one question while everyone is foaming at the mouth? who of you have read any of the legislation? Simple Question?

i read the legislation about as much as you went to todays rally . neither of us needed to.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by John McMaster

OK Red I see where you are coming from but have you had the chance to read the legislation...because even the pollies heads are reeling trying to keep up with the big push.

well that is the first thing I went to look at, cannot say I understand it all but it lacks the propaganda from both sides. Have you taken the time?

[MO]

OK ppl lets cool it.... just to put it into perspective there are approximately 1200 pages of legal speak to get through...can anybody really get through this and come up with a considered opinion in the very short time allowed?

[buickman]

Originally Posted by gozza

i wanna go down to the marches and tell em all to get there bludgin assess back to work snell

I dare you to tell a large group of angry hardcore unionists that. It would be insane.

buickman

[MO]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

well that is the first thing I went to look at, cannot say I understand it all but it lacks the propaganda from both sides. Have you taken the time?

RED straight up I'm pretty good when it comes to IR but even for me I would need at least a month to read,cross reference and come up with a reasonably informed opinion and even then it would be superficial as I don't have the legal expertise to really do the job.

But I will in the very near future have a look.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by John McMaster

OK ppl lets cool it.... just to put it into perspective there are approximately 1200 pages of legal speak to get through...can anybody really get through this and come up with a considered opinion in the very short time allowed?

Cool it is a very wise idea especial considering this forum IS NOT the vehicle for party political debate!

There are 2 opposing forces here and wake up call here guys neither give a stuff about you! I can see both sides of the arguement but anyone backing theri hopes on Combe and Co would be better off buying shares in Poseiden, Dead Duck Inc!

You have seen many employers in the pages of this thread state how they value their employee, and these are the ones you need to impress.

Striding aroung with a megaphone may make you feel good inside but it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to anything.

I've been screwed by both sides and I know who I trust, ME, the only one working in my interest. Basic economics are not that hard.

[RED_EL_XR8]

At this point a bit of calm down and read the fact might help, devisive extremes from both side will pit mate against mate to achieve their ends!

[MO]

Goodnight Red I'm tired will have...hopefully intelligent input tomorrow..will try to read legislation and hopefully come up with an opinion.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Combe and Co would be better off buying shares in Poseiden, Dead Duck Inc!

Next election the Federal Liberals will be on that ship.
Combe & Co will still have there jobs...
Johnny can enjoy his retirement.
Or maybe we might see a rally supporting the Government, maybe not as they have already spent $55 million of tax payers money with little effect..

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by John McMaster

Goodnight Red I'm tired will have...hopefully intelligent input tomorrow..will try to read legislation and hopefully come up with an opinion.

it would be a better base for opinions!

[gtfpv]

yeap i need to go to sleep . and relax my vocals so i can talk when i have to explian my abscence tomorrow . don't want to sound like neville wran .after yelling like a raving lunatic all day .i was there in support but the last thing anyone needs to see is my melon on the big screen, glad it wasn't seen .

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

Next election the Federal Liberals will be on that ship.
Combe & Co will still have there jobs...
Johnny can enjoy his retirement.
Or maybe we might see a rally supporting the Government, maybe not as they have already spent $55 million of tax payers money with little effect..

Maybe maybe not, rallies are hardly coalition style, a little perspective required. There are many breading hatred for their own ends and they are not all on the one side.

Unions = Collective voice of the workers, damn if we actually had that the Govt would have to work for their money. Governments of either brand!

[12]

Was there today. A huuuge turn out in Melbourne. My workplace also encouraged everyone to attend the protest rally. Said they would approve any type of leave.. either sick, annual, long servive, ect.. at a days notice. Thought that was bloody good of them for it. So much so, most of us went to the rally, and then went to work after lunch to catch up, even though we were told we could have the day off.

I have read through this thread.. and I shake my head in disbelief at some of the utter crap that has been posted on here. Unbelievable.. to say the least, and I'll refrain from commenting any further.

[ltd]

Without going too far into the debate, I just want to add a couple of things.

1/ The government (past and present) focus all policy on getting re-elected. Therefore, anything that disadvantages the masses is going to cost them dearly on election day. For this reason I do not believe that there is all this hidden agenda crap that the unions are espousing in the legislation. I'll reserve judgement until I see it.

2/ The union movement, and essentially socialists in general have their own selfish motivations; i.e. maintaining union membership. Dismantling the IRC is going to severely impact on unions, and their representation of all claims both legitimate and vexatious. Those that preside over IR matters at the IRC are ALWAYS biased against the employer. In actual fact, here in NSW not one case was heard last year that didn't award the ex employee with some benefit. Employers have thus had their hands tied for years.

Hmm, Lastly the Unions are moaning about the federal government spending money advertising the IR bill. So as to not sound like a bunch of hypocrits I guess the unions get free press then on the radio, television and in newspapers.

[ltd]

See, and I didn't even get to the point the usual crowds with the high pitch screaching and hysteria from idiots like Doug Cameron. Not to mention the fact that these groups are aligned with the likes of self confessed rock spiders Bob Brown, Bob Carr et al, and other repugnant dignitaries of their own fantasies.

Just a hint to all the protestors out there. Your slogans suck.
"We're workers united - We'll never be defeated"??? WTF.
Like "You're all poets and weren't aware. You get a rhyme every occassion."

Try "We're workers united - our love is unrequited" Atleast it rhymes. Tee Hee.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by ltd

Without going too far into the debate, I just want to add a couple of things.

1/ The government (past and present) focus all policy on getting re-elected. Therefore, anything that disadvantages the masses is going to cost them dearly on election day. For this reason I do not believe that there is all this hidden agenda crap that the unions are espousing in the legislation. I'll reserve judgement until I see it.

2/ The union movement, and essentially socialists in general have their own selfish motivations; i.e. maintaining union membership. Dismantling the IRC is going to severely impact on unions, and their representation of all claims both legitimate and vexatious. Those that preside over IR matters at the IRC are ALWAYS biased against the employer. In actual fact, here in NSW not one case was heard last year that didn't award the ex employee with some benefit. Employers have thus had their hands tied for years.

Hmm, Lastly the Unions are moaning about the federal government spending money advertising the IR bill. So as to not sound like a bunch of hypocrits I guess the unions get free press then on the radio, television and in newspapers.

You talk about the Government's and the Unions don't forget about the people its the mums and dads, kids and the pensioners that are out there marching, this is what this is about family’s and the impact on them.
These rally’s are not like the same old, same old its a different and very diverse crowd.

The money the Unions spend on adds campaigns does not belong to the public.
The money funding there add campaigns is donated from workers, and lots of work fundraising...

Is there any reason why IR needs to be dismantled?
(We only here unfair dismissal) why don’t they look at that and leave the rest.

In the last 15 years the only pay raise I have received is through Enterprise bargaining the Boss makes $2 that’s $1 for the boss $1 for the worker.
We have become more flexible to achieve higher productivity, the Boss makes more the worker gets a pay raise...
Some EB agreements are linked to KPI without improved performance there is no pay rise....
EB agreements are what have made most companies much more flexible through multi skilling, employ fewer workers.
All agreements are made by the workers and there boss...
So why do we need secret AWA's?
Did you have many away from your factory, would you sack anyone that went to a rally.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

All agreements are made by the workers and there boss...
So why do we need secret AWA's?
Did you have many away from your factory, would you sack anyone that went to a rally.

the first good reason I can think of is it presently impossible to pay an individual worker more in recognition for his extra effort! And that blows chunks big time!

This kind of debate really does not belong in this forum, there are valid points from all sides regardless off opinions, its only the most divisive elements of our community that try to make it into us & them.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

the first good reason I can think of is it presently impossible to pay an individual worker more in recognition for his extra effort! And that blows chunks big time!

No its not a problem, they just get a different tittle.....we have many on different classifications and tittles...

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

No its not a problem, they just get a different tittle.....we have many on different classifications and tittles...

That is bending the rules to get around something that needs fixing! Is your best labourer a Snr Shovel Operative or the more favoured Civil Engineer?

[JADED6]

If you dislike any AWA.
Accept the job anyway.
"Borrow" & on sell company stationary to make ends meet. Things will soon revert back.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

Did you have many away from your factory, would you sack anyone that went to a rally.

No, none. Why, because my employees are my biggest commodity. I train them and as such value my time enough to keep them interested. As such I pay them accordingly and do things like staff birthdays, monthly BBQ's, Christmas parties etc. I also treat them like mates and they do the same. They trust me and I trust them so it's not in my interest to try to punish them financially. To give you an indication though, if the Government mandates that I should pay all of them $2-$3 an hour less than their current hourly rate; I won't be reducing it purely because I know that someone else will pay them that same $2-$3 extra. In actual fact though, the only thing that affects me is the IR laws

What gives me the right to make an informed decision is that I have had experience in this arena. About 6 years ago I employed an elder gentleman (61 years old) who could not get work anywhere. I put him on normal rates and gave him normal work. I knew he would not be an expert nor a standout employee but I felt sorry for him and his predicament especially when I found out he had a family still dependant upon him. So for four and a half years, he worked for us. Towards the final year however, he started to forget things. Developed an aggressive form of Alzheimers. (His wife informed me of this when she phoned through suggesting that he should retire, as she was worried about him on the road. She unsuccessfully suggested to him to retire, but he didn't want to).

Got to the point whereby it was so bad he was getting lost on the way to work, and couldn't remember his name. I strongly urged him to see his doctor, to which came no reply. Anyway, after becoming totally unemployable by the fact that he was totally unproductive; I took a risk assessment and found that he was unable to even travel safely to and from work, let alone work. Over a 6 month period he was ultimately repeatedly councilled, warned and dismissed with all entitlements and a bonus of $5000.00 to help him pay some bills.

A month later he went for unfair dismissal because his son (a legal secretary) refused to believe his father had anything wrong with him. Long story short, the ruling was that he was incapable of working and that I had followed all of the correct procedures but I should still give him $10,000.00 within 4 weeks on top of the bonus I gave him at the termination of his employment.

As a result, I had to let the casual I had employed to replace him go, as I couldn't afford to pay his wage and the $10,000.00. I also had to borrow money to pay for this on top of my overdraft, mortgage and other various loans.

So I ask you, who would put themselves in my position, and then support the unions and their anti government, over embellished lies and propoganda.
The unions claim there is nothing wrong with the IRC. Even when they admit that the "employer has done everything correctly, and been generous and helpful to the disadvantaged", but we're gonna punish you anyway.

[Bossxr8]

This whole IR thing isn't about Bosses like you, its about the greedy heartless barstard bosses who will happily cut their employees pay so they can afford another investment property. Thats where the whole unfairness of the new regs lie. There may be problems with unfair dismissal laws at the moment but why change all the other laws that work perfectly fine the way they are. Its just change for the sake of change that helps no one except the rich.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by ltd

As a result, I had to let the casual I had employed to replace him go, as I couldn't afford to pay his wage and the $10,000.00. I also had to borrow money to pay for this on top of my overdraft, mortgage and other various loans.

So I ask you, who would put themselves in my position, and then support the unions and their anti government, over embellished lies and propoganda.
The unions claim there is nothing wrong with the IRC. Even when they admit that the "employer has done everything correctly, and been generous and helpful to the disadvantaged", but we're gonna punish you anyway.

I dont think that anybody will disagree with you on the unfair dismissal laws. I'm more worried about the minimum standards to pay.
I was watching Insight where a Hotel boss was complaining about having to pay penalty rates on the weekends. Now I have been working for minimum wage while I'm at Uni and the only reason I would even contemplate working on a Sunday is that I get double time (mind you I get to work every sunday at 9am never have called in sick and have given them warning if I cannot work that day due to study). If that was abolished, I wouldn't bother working weekends as I would rather do better things (I've given up playing club sports for work). If they rostered me I'd call in sick and tell them I'm unavailable on sundays. Now that might sound bad, but why would a person with a family want to work on the weekends for normal rate when they could spend it with their family. But than I guess you can find desperate people that are struggling to pay their way and exploit them, as they have no other option.
I have no problem getting rid of employees that are inept, but when loyal employees get treated like s#it and are their good nature is taken advantage off that concerns me with these new laws.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by vztrt

I dont think that anybody will disagree with you on the unfair dismissal laws. I'm more worried about the minimum standards to pay.
I was watching Insight where a Hotel boss was complaining about having to pay penalty rates on the weekends. Now I have been working for minimum wage while I'm at Uni and the only reason I would even contemplate working on a Sunday is that I get double time (mind you I get to work every sunday at 9am never have called in sick and have given them warning if I cannot work that day due to study). If that was abolished, I wouldn't bother working weekends as I would rather do better things (I've given up playing club sports for work). If they rostered me I'd call in sick and tell them I'm unavailable on sundays. Now that might sound bad, but why would a person with a family want to work on the weekends for normal rate when they could spend it with their family. But than I guess you can find desperate people that are struggling to pay their way and exploit them, as they have no other option.
I have no problem getting rid of employees that are inept, but when loyal employees get treated like s#it and are their good nature is taken advantage off that concerns me with these new laws.

You make several good points there, from what I understand though there will be an adjudicator in place to prevent peoples wages being cut. I know it sounds fanciful, but bosses that cut pay to employees deserve to end up with difficulties aquiring staff, as well as a large training expense. From all of the other employers I have spoken to, none are even considering cutting wages, as we are sure it's only going to result in high staff turnover and hence, more expense through training, productivity and quality problems.

Where the Government is taking aim, is at the ability of business to reward workers who do the right thing. Those that coast through a job riding on the skill and hard work of others will not be rewarded, and hence create an incentive to motivate them to work like the others. I personally have 2 employees that are so loyal and hard working; that the minute the legislation passes I will reward them both with a 35% pay increase. Whilst this may seem somewhat do-able now, unfortunately others will see this as playing favourites and therefore become less interested, or all out quit. If it is spelled out to them that as they advance themselves they are able to earn more, everyone is happy.

Most small business owners like myself have one huge indispensable commodity, skilled staff. The cost of replacement for these people in a small business environment is huge, and you never quite achieve full productivity for a couple of years. As a result, people like myself would never dream of cutting staff's wages as it is basically a recipe for financial ruin.

As mentioned earlier, I agree that there are some terrible bosses and to be truthful, they deserve to be run out of the business. I honestly believe that this legislation will expose them for their ineptness and consequently cost them their livelihoods. If you're prepared to treat hard working staff terribly, then you don't deserve to be an employer.

The best advice I can offer is to wait until the legislation is put to informed public opinion, because if you think about it; John Howard and his government are not going to do anything that completely jeapordises their chances at the next federal election in 2007. Just think back to all of the doomsday prophecies around the time the GST was introduced. Even those who had trouble with it were granted leniency, and extensions to submissions for a period of 18 months. :