VFACTS Feb 2012 - Page 7

Bossxr8 · 07-03-2012, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic85

My comment re: emissions was more in reply to the guy who commented that diesels were dirtier etc. This simply isn't the case. Modern diesels have DPF's (diesel particulate filters) and NOx filters too which greatly reduces their emissions and almost eliminates soot under acceleration. Some of the lower tech diesels like Hilux, Navara etc still blow smoke because they're such old tech.

The 2.7 V6 TD doesn't have any of this stuff though, and they blow smoke under acceleration as a consequence, so its a useless point.

The new 3 litre TDV6 has the new emissions gear the old 2.7 doesn't.

jpd80 · 07-03-2012, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The 2.7 V6 TD doesn't have any of this stuff though, and they blow smoke under acceleration as a consequence, so its a useless point.

The new 3 litre TDV6 has the new emissions gear the old 2.7 doesn't.

Shame Boss FoA couldn't cast the blocks and cranks here and assemble a nice little V6 capable of being diesel or Ecoboost..

naddis01 · 08-03-2012, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

No doubt EcoLPI is a powerhouse but why isn't it selling its head of?

Around 3,500 diesel cars sold last month to 355 LPG cars, I think that is of more relevance than comparing performance,
the fact that only Holden bothers to compete in LPG cars shows just how limited the market really is.

That is 1 in 3 Falcons. Hardly a failure. How low would Falcon's figures be now without EcoLpi?

Gobes32 · 08-03-2012, 09:34 AM

The interesting thing about Ecolpi, is a lot of people thought it would be the Falcon's saviour, myself included. The main problem has been a lack of "cheap" lpi Falcons in the market. If I can buy a petrol XR6 for $35,990 drive away and dealers seem to be intent on selling a XT Lpi for over 40k, the choice is made easy.........

Nic85 · 08-03-2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

That is 1 in 3 Falcons. Hardly a failure. How low would Falcon's figures be now without EcoLpi?

1 in 3? As in 30%? 3500/350 = 30%?? I'm confused. I thought that would be close enough to 10%, or 1 in 10.

Bossxr8: I wasn't aware of that, so thanks. But I've said before, I know the 2.7L V6 diesel is a very old engine. No doubt Ford didn't have the money to bring it into the modern age. It's doing a job for the moment, but I wonder if it's not very capable of being updated much which is why Jaguar 86'd it?

naddis01 · 08-03-2012, 09:56 AM

Where did 3500 come from? According to the figures earlier in this thread Falcon sold 1192 units in Feb.

I got my figures from this thread which looks like the month of Feb. Assuming Falcon makes up the vast majority of those 384 LPG sales.

Mad_Pom · 08-03-2012, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Where did 3500 come from? According to the figures earlier in this thread Falcon sold 1192 units in Feb.

I got my figures from this thread which looks like the month of Feb. Assuming Falcon makes up the vast majority of those 384 LPG sales.

Also need to add 400 utes, if you are including light commercial LPG sales

stevz · 08-03-2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

The interesting thing about Ecolpi, is a lot of people thought it would be the Falcon's saviour, myself included. The main problem has been a lack of "cheap" lpi Falcons in the market. If I can buy a petrol XR6 for $35,990 drive away and dealers seem to be intent on selling a XT Lpi for over 40k, the choice is made easy.........

I saw an ad in yesterdays herald sun with new xr6 ecolpi for $36,490 drive away and iirc g6 ecolpi $39,990 drive away.

jpd80 · 08-03-2012, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Where did 3500 come from? According to the figures earlier in this thread Falcon sold 1192 units in Feb.

I got my figures from this thread which looks like the month of Feb. Assuming Falcon makes up the vast majority of those 384 LPG sales.

some of those will be Holden and their old Dual fuel set up...
Ford is making around 30 LPG units a day, around 120-150 a week..

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevz

I saw an ad in yesterdays herald sun with new xr6 ecolpi for $36,490 drive away and iirc g6 ecolpi $39,990 drive away.

And about time too, Ford needs to get going with advertising and push some sales along..

Gobes32 · 08-03-2012, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevz

I saw an ad in yesterdays herald sun with new xr6 ecolpi for $36,490 drive away and iirc g6 ecolpi $39,990 drive away.

Finally, the price mark up and lack of build numbers was killing Ford, A EcoLPI XR6 for that money in FG2 guise makes for good value motoring. It's a shame that LPG seems to have price-spiked at the same time........

jpd80 · 08-03-2012, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Finally, the price mark up and lack of build numbers was killing Ford, A EcoLPI XR6 for that money in FG2 guise makes for good value motoring. It's a shame that LPG seems to have price-spiked at the same time........

I couldn't believe Ford's RRP for an XR6 with EcoLPI, it's over $47,000 - that's why no one is looking,
a 20% fleet discount puts that price at $38,000 and probably why fleets aren't rushing in.
That goes double for Holden and it's LPG pricing structure, gotta make them attractive to fleets, try 30% discount.
Or better still, how about making the RRPs more realistic and more aligned with market expectations.

naddis01 · 08-03-2012, 12:09 PM

So including the utes that is still between 20-25% of Falcons are LPG powered.

jpd80 · 08-03-2012, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

So including the utes that is still between 20-25% of Falcons are LPG powered.

A distortion of figures comon with low sales, the point being that buyers are scarce on the ground.
Ford is/was making 30 EcoLPI units a day in February which is about 620 Falcon and utes combined.
So by now, they probably have about 500 odd in stock, nothing to panic about but time to move them.

The last areial picture of Broadmeadows on nearmaps.com on 15 February show hardly any cars on the grass.
That's a good sign because this time last year, Broameadows had cars stacked everywhere, the grass was packed.

burnz · 08-03-2012, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyk54

Line up your diesel car of choice against the EcoLPI Falcon in any gear and see how it goes....

i'd be more than happy to put my tiny little 2.0 up against it.

side note a 4.0 diesel puts 220 kw and 950 nm..

bobthebilda · 09-03-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

A distortion of figures comon with low sales, the point being that buyers are scarce on the ground.
Ford is/was making 30 EcoLPI units a day in February which is about 620 Falcon and utes combined.
So by now, they probably have about 500 odd in stock, nothing to panic about but time to move them.

The last areial picture of Broadmeadows on nearmaps.com on 15 February show hardly any cars on the grass.
That's a good sign because this time last year, Broameadows had cars stacked everywhere, the grass was packed.

It would be intersting to find out whose holding all the cars. according to FCAI
http://www.fcai.com.au/sales/monthly-production-volumes
the local manufacturers made 22751 vehicles last month (probably 22,000 cars if you take out the trucks etc). My rough estimate is Holden, Ford and Toyota sold 11200 locally made cars last month. I find it very hard to believe that anything near 11,000 cars went for export.

jpd80 · 09-03-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

It would be intersting to find out whose holding all the cars. according to FCAI
http://www.fcai.com.au/sales/monthly-production-volumes
the local manufacturers made 22751 vehicles last month (probably 22,000 cars if you take out the trucks etc). My rough estimate is Holden, Ford and Toyota sold 11200 locally made cars last month. I find it very hard to believe that anything near 11,000 cars went for export.

Ford were building 209/day in February which works out to around 4400 but sold around 3,000
Hence the reason why Ford is back on four day weeks...to get builds down to sales and the
down days are a great way to control costs by not having excess stock sitting in the paddock.

Similarly Holden going to 400/day will reduce monthly output to around 8,000 matching current sales..

burnz · 09-03-2012, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

It would be intersting to find out whose holding all the cars. according to FCAI
http://www.fcai.com.au/sales/monthly-production-volumes
the local manufacturers made 22751 vehicles last month (probably 22,000 cars if you take out the trucks etc). My rough estimate is Holden, Ford and Toyota sold 11200 locally made cars last month. I find it very hard to believe that anything near 11,000 cars went for export.

holden exported around 1290 units to middle east and about 1020 to new zealand...ford normally does better than holden in new zealand.

i assume toyo would have similar results in new zealand,,and greater results with their other exports..

jpd80 · 09-03-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

holden exported around 1290 units to middle east and about 1020 to new zealand...ford normally does better than holden in new zealand.

i assume toyo would have similar results in new zealand,,and greater results with their other exports..

Thanks for the Export Figures.. although I can't see Ford selling 1,000 falcon/Ute/Territory in NZ.

Still, it sounds like both Ford and Holden are matching production to sales meaning no build up of excess stock..
That's the good news in all of this.

burnz · 09-03-2012, 04:01 PM

Automotive Tid Bits

annual turnover $160+billion
tax revenue $10 billion
direct employment 60,000 including component suppliers
direct/indirect employment 400,000
the industry has 110,000 businesses
R&D $798 million

source FCAI
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rc...vaz3DqIFkqz76Q

jpd80 · 09-03-2012, 04:36 PM

I'm sure our local revisionist will be along to refute those claims with his scorched earth policies...

burnz · 09-03-2012, 04:41 PM

my reason is their is more to loose if they pull up stumps, we must support local car makers.

i would like to know the complete tax revenue, 400,000 workers +100,000 companys.

jpd80 · 09-03-2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

my reason is their is more to loose if they pull up stumps, we must support local car makers.

i would like to know the complete tax revenue, 400,000 workers +100,000 companys.

Billions there in commerce, let alone the tax take off it and the GST from workers spending their money in the community.
Even the staunchest conservative would see the immediate value to government and community and the potential
loss of commerce flying against the grain of business and enterprise.

That was the reason behind the US government stepping in and saving GM, the affect on an estimated 3 million people
was considered too great to ignore. Now that GM is up and away, the tax from all levels will flow back through communities.

**russellw** · 09-03-2012, 05:14 PM

The first set of graphical data is up in the Tech portal now.

Cheers
Russ

martyk54 · 09-03-2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

i'd be more than happy to put my tiny little 2.0 up against it.

side note a 4.0 diesel puts 220 kw and 950 nm..

Your 2.0 (whatever it is) would get destroyed.

What does this 4.0 cost? Who makes it? BMW?

burnz · 09-03-2012, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyk54

Your 2.0 (whatever it is) would get destroyed.

What does this 4.0 cost? Who makes it? BMW?

actally my 2.0 doesent get destroyed; neck and neck with an xr6/sv6,, yes i get hosed with a pushbike from stand still..but in gear, very impressive..

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyk54

Line up your diesel car of choice against the EcoLPI Falcon in any gear and see how it goes....

my quote was of similar size 4.0, so i took an average of bmw, toyota, merc, jeep, renault...and so on, they all very much the same in kw/mn

**russellw** · 09-03-2012, 06:24 PM

The second set of graphical data is also uploaded now.

Cheers
Russ

bobthebilda · 10-03-2012, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

my reason is their is more to loose if they pull up stumps, we must support local car makers.

i would like to know the complete tax revenue, 400,000 workers +100,000 companys.

The problem with your argument is that it's based on a report that is referring to the whole Australian auto industry. Ie the 13 percent of cars that are locally made and the 87 percent that are imported.

Are you saying imports should be encouraged because it employs more people.

burnz · 11-03-2012, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

The problem with your argument is that it's based on a report that is referring to the whole Australian auto industry. Ie the 13 percent of cars that are locally made and the 87 percent that are imported.

Are you saying imports should be encouraged because it employs more people.

you just quoted me saying "we must support local car makers" and then say this ^^^

the imports will be here long after the door shut from the local three.

csv8 · 11-03-2012, 09:55 AM

Button Plan worked !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jpd80 · 11-03-2012, 11:58 AM

This is more about Ford and Holden building cars that Australian buyers want to purchase, Toyota too.
The next RAV4 will be Camry based, I would like to see it and the North American Venza introduced here,
Venza is kinda like the Camry equivalent of ASX, something I thnik would sell much better than a Cancorder.
Similarly, Holden should look at building the Equinox here, Captiva's long wheelbase brother.
Ford definitly needs to continue Territory or Explorer here and back it up with Kuga production.

I like the future line up for Ford:
Ecosport, Kuga, Territory and Everest will go a long way towards filling uncontested segments.
Figo, Fiesta, Thai Focus and Mondeo will continue plugging along.

^^^^^ Those are the vehicles to concentrate and grow the business, work with Falcon and
if it's doubtful, do something about a fitting replacement, don't just give up