The 6-Speed Showdown - Manual vs ZF Auto

[Brent]

Thinking about this a bit more, I reckon more people would go for the manual (in the Falcon XRs and FPVs) if the driveline was a bit more refined. Honestly, I've lost count of the amount of threads/comments on the dramas associated with the manual XRs and FPVs over the last 2-3 years. Clutch problems, driveline shudder, poor tolerances, backlash, vibrations, sticky shifting, synchro probs, crunching noises. The list goes on.

I ended up opting for the ZF auto in my GT, and I have to admit that when deciding on this transmission, the above was always in the back of my mind. I don't drive my car really hard, I don't take it onto the track. Yep, I'm probably getting soft as I get older, but the thought of splashing $60K+ down on a car that has the driveline refinement of a wheat harvester didn't really do it for me. Some call those 'issues' character......I call it poor engineering and cost cutting.

Deep down, I still have a really soft spot for a manual. I'd love my GT to have a great manual gearbox, and a driveline to match. However, at the point in time when I bought my car, the auto was the more appropriate choice. It was never a case of "manual rules" or "auto is best" or any other throwaway line. Next time it may be different..........when I buy my 2008/09 model manual GTHO........

[mowog]

My last car was a 6 Speed manual but it was a 4 pot screamer 141kw Corolla Sportivo the geabox was light and easy to use but you would never have an auto in a car like that.

My current car is an XR6 Turbo Ute with the ZF I cant understand why anyone would want to shift gears themselves when you have the choice of a world class gearbox like this. If you do track days every weekend then the manual is the way to go. But this ZF is so bloody good.

Comments about performance cars needing to be manual's.... There are some great cars out there with ZF or DSG gearboxes. The clutch pedal is on limited time.

[GXL078]

another double post :

[GXL078]

When was the last time a Formula 1 racing car had a clutch?
A pet hate of mine is people on the Mazda Forum saying their auto is a "semi-automatic". A semi auto matic is what they had in Volkswagens and NSU Ro80. There is no clutch pedal. The clutch is electomagnetic/vacuum operated (I think). You still MUST change gears. There is no fully automatic mode in a semi-automatic.

I can't see why anyone would WANT to drive a manual in Sydney traffic, I have.

[freaky]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

When was the last time a Formula 1 racing car had a clutch?

F1 cars still to this day have a hand operated clutch. Its a paddle(s) located on the rear of the steering wheel.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

I can't see why anyone would WANT to drive a manual in Sydney traffic, I have.

I have recently read somewhere that there actually are people in Australia who don't live in Sydney or ever want to drive there.

I wonder if it was fiction?

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by freaky

F1 cars still to this day have a hand operated clutch. Its a paddle(s) located on the rear of the steering wheel.

I meant a clutch PEDAL on the floor.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by flappist

I have recently read somewhere that there actually are people in Australia who don't live in Sydney or ever want to drive there.

I wonder if it was fiction?

Nope your right. I live in Canberra and don't want to, have no desire to, or will ever go to Sydney if I can avoid it :

[Night Runner]

I thought it was a launch control button type thing, they hold they revs at stall hit launch control?
Anyhow, F1 cars and ZFs are like babies and Lions. :

[Piotr]

Originally Posted by freaky

F1 cars still to this day have a hand operated clutch. Its a paddle(s) located on the rear of the steering wheel.

Nope. F1 cars do have a driver operated clutch but its only used on starts. The rest of the time its computer controlled but gear change decisions are always made by the driver. They use Semi-Automatic boxes

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by Piotr

Nope. F1 cars do have a driver operated clutch but its only used on starts. The rest of the time its computer controlled but gear change decisions are always made by the driver. They use Semi-Automatic boxes

Rally cars must be the same too, correct? They use the paddles and/or gear shift.
The shifts sound like auto style shifts (obviously more sportier) and I don't see the left leg move much.

[Piotr]

Yep, rally cars use semi-auto very much like the f1.

[freaky]

Originally Posted by Piotr

Nope. F1 cars do have a driver operated clutch but its only used on starts. The rest of the time its computer controlled but gear change decisions are always made by the driver. They use Semi-Automatic boxes

I'm well aware of that.

Merely answering the question as to when they last had clutches. Not when and how they use them, or where they are located.

[XR06T]

manual for me thanks.. i hardly ever drive in 'city' traffic and manual seems more fun to me!

[Night Runner]

Has anyone had any problems with the ZF? Like faults?
Or all smooth sailing thus far. Someone posted it's 7K to fix overhaul them?


YIKES!

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

Has anyone had any problems with the ZF? Like faults?
Or all smooth sailing thus far. Someone posted it's 7K to fix overhaul them?


YIKES!

I know a guy in W.A he deals direct with ZF so he gets genuine trade, $850 replaced most parts including the expensive oil and filter/pan and imput shaft.
$850 is cost of trade parts only.
His words for someone who knows an auto these ZF are as easy to rebuild as opening your lunch box.
they are very cheap to rebuild, I suspect auto builders are cashing in on the unknown with these autos.
Also its no good beefing up the plates because the shafts wont take any more.
380rwkw is the power rating this particular one let go on.
Not bad for a factory box.

[Night Runner]

Thanks SpoolMan.


Anyone else had issues? How long has the ZF been in public hands?

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

Thanks SpoolMan.


Anyone else had issues? How long has the ZF been in public hands?

November 2005 for Fords.
BMW, Jaguar and some 4wd have been using them for many years.


Edit: read away.
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=43074

[Night Runner]

Thanks SpoolMan, I didn't read it all but have read the specs on it before, just not in that greater detail. Sure is one impressive box and even though I love my manuals, after this thread, it's one auto I WANT to drive (at least test). :

[mik]

Originally Posted by flappist

Steffo, go to a track (one with corners). Brake hard into a corner. Downshift while under brakes and then apply power while exiting.

Do the same thing in an auto. THEN when you get back on the track and clean your undies you will understand.

Autos, even manual shifting ones will not change gear exactly when you want them to every time and that delay will either under or over steer you into the grass.

Manuals also have clutches. These are good for disengaging power without back pressure and for sliping and thumping as required. Again, autos cannot do these things.

But for just driving around town and the occaisional weekend warrior blat for 400m at a time the auto is king.

i have to say flappist if you miss a gear in your manual in a hard corner you might also be driving back onto the track,................... it happens :

[flappist]

Originally Posted by mik

i have to say flappist if you miss a gear in your manual in a hard corner you might also be driving back onto the track,................... it happens :

Yes it does, but either:
a) you jump to neutral and there would be no power applied so therefore you would just roll along while selecting the correct gear.
b) too low or too high a gear is selected and you immediately depress the clutch therefore removing power until correct gear is selected.

In both situations your hand is on the gear knob and foot is on or near the clutch.

On the other hand with an auto, you down shift and it does not do it until a later you have absolutely no idea what the hell is going on until it is too late.

Auto.
You press the pedal, there is not as much grunt as you expect to you automaticly press it more. Suddely it jumps and you have too much grunt and you oversteer. The immediate reaction is to back off and now you are off line, off track and the rear tyres find grip sending you in the wrong direction.

Manual.
Neutral: The engine roars and you go nowhere. You roll out of the corner, engage the gear and hope no one saw it.
Too low: As you release the clutch the engine roars so you immediately depress it as do as in neutral.
Too high: There is not as much grunt as you expect. You exit far more slowly than you should. You select right gear and hope no one saw.

In each case the vehicle does not change gear or engage power unless YOU do it.

If you select the wrong gear and then do not understand and correct the situation go to your FPV shop and trade on an auto and stay off tracks with corners, they are too complex for you.

N.B. This applies to sprinting not racing and definitely not drifting and assumes you were not just going too fast for the corner..

[XR_Strider_GuY]

Originally Posted by Grunter

I'll third (?) it.

I'm a manual lover through and through, but driving the TT with the ZF I'm amazed how great it is. It always seems to be in the right gear.
It's impressed me that much that given the choice on a new car, I'd pick it over a manual and I never thought I'd say that.

(declaimer: that's on the assumption that I still have my manual TS50) ;)

From what I have seen it seems the 6 speed ZF auto's shows its best impressions in the Turbo6's. Im not convinced its the better transmission for the Boss V8.
Performance aside I am a manual person can't beat the feel of the car with a manual.

[WOLF]

Originally Posted by XR_Strider_GuY

From what I have seen it seems the 6 speed ZF auto's shows its best impressions in the Turbo6's. Im not convinced its the better transmission for the Boss V8.
Performance aside I am a manual person can't beat the feel of the car with a manual.

I'm more than convinced....Take Hot460's ute as an example, ran 12.8's with minimal mods and from memory I'm pretty sure his 60 foot times were equal if not better than the turbo brigade.

[all4ford]

Originally Posted by flappist

I have recently read somewhere that there actually are people in Australia who don't live in Sydney or ever want to drive there.

I wonder if it was fiction?

It must be fiction, I've never heard of any respectable person who wouldn't want to come to the best city in Australia. :

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by XR_Strider_GuY

From what I have seen it seems the 6 speed ZF auto's shows its best impressions in the Turbo6's. Im not convinced its the better transmission for the Boss V8.
Performance aside I am a manual person can't beat the feel of the car with a manual.

Good point, a lot of the ZF talk in this thread is based on the Typhoon or turbo Falcons.....wonder how different the boys with V8s get with this magical shifting device. :Reverend:

[Night Runner]

Hey, what happened to the poll? If that is a mod playing with it (who are the only ones with access), that's pathetic & immature to say the least. Lots of cheap shots on this forum. : Water off a ducks back to me.......just makes the person(s) involved look weak. ;)

[Falcon Coupe]

Looks like the ZF auto's are quite popular.... :hihi:

[Night Runner]

Awfully popular! :

Gotta love the gutless....... ;)

[mowog]

Now thats funny :

[Night Runner]

: Yupe! Though, I must admit, I thought it would be a little closer.
Come on MANuals! We need all the help we can get on this one. lol

Ahhh, time for a drive me thinks............ :