New Hoon laws about to be released - Page 5

steve.zissou · 31-05-2011, 11:09 AM

a couple of things.

Australians in general seem to think lots of things are privileges. Governments don't give you the right or privilege to do any thing. They can only take rights and privileges away (hopefully for good reason - but not always). Anyone can drive a car - governments (representing the majority of citizens) see fit to curb that freedom/ability in the interests of public safety . It is wrong to think that doing or being able to do something is a privilege. Very important point -!

Taking a person's property as punishment for a crime or offence before guilt is proven is plain wrong. The police already have power to take custody of an item used in a crime or offence for evidence or if it poses a substantial risk.
Beef up the punishment for offences but due process must be maintained(even if they make no sense - how can doing a burn out be more serious than actually driving in a negligent manner that actually causes an accident?)
It's a slippery slope - How would you feel if someone dobbed you in to the tax office and they kicked you out of your house, took everything you owned for a month. You then pay a storage fee to get it all back and then need to wait 7 months before you can go to court an prove your innocence.

I would like to see this challenged in court as it isn’t punishment (haven't been found guilty or even charged in many cases) and the govt can't just take your property ( Section 51(xxxi) of the Australian Constitution ) -

steve.zissou · 31-05-2011, 11:11 AM

and dont forget to write to your local member if you have an issue with it - they dont read fordforums

Jim Goose · 31-05-2011, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrckelley

a couple of things.

Australians in general seem to think lots of things are privileges. Governments don't give you the right or privilege to do any thing. They can only take rights and privileges away (hopefully for good reason - but not always). Anyone can drive a car - governments (representing the majority of citizens) see fit to curb that freedom/ability in the interests of public safety . It is wrong to think that doing or being able to do something is a privilege. Very important point -!

Taking a person's property as punishment for a crime or offence before guilt is proven is plain wrong. The police already have power to take custody of an item used in a crime or offence for evidence or if it poses a substantial risk.
Beef up the punishment for offences but due process must be maintained(even if they make no sense - how can doing a burn out be more serious than actually driving in a negligent manner that actually causes an accident?)
It's a slippery slope - How would you feel if someone dobbed you in to the tax office and they kicked you out of your house, took everything you owned for a month. You then pay a storage fee to get it all back and then need to wait 7 months before you can go to court an prove your innocence.

I would like to see this challenged in court as it isn’t punishment (haven't been found guilty or even charged in many cases) and the govt can't just take your property ( Section 51(xxxi) of the Australian Constitution ) -

Glad to see you quoted the constitution.... and youll note in the constitution we have no "bill of rights". We are however a signatory of the UN Bill of Human Rights.

If a government takes away "your rights" its called opression...
A licence IS NOT A RIGHT.
A right is something which everyone has no matter what colour they are, or what religion they are... you dont "earn" your rights, its should be automatic.
As an example workers rights for fair pay etc... its automatic.

Getting a drivers licence must be earned... and you must meet the requirements. Its not given to you automatically. Therefor its a previlidge.
Not everyone is allowed to drive.

Its akin to club, in order to enter a private club you must be a member or be accepted in.

Again we have NO RIGHTS in Australia as such (apart from human rights, which we must go to the UN in order to go to court over). Hence why some aborignals has gone to the UN in order to complain about their treatment and lack of human rights.

Do you honestly think the UN is interested in motor vehicle licencing?

mrbaxr6t · 31-05-2011, 05:47 PM

on the topic of licensing and driving being a privilege with this I disagree, anybody can get into a car and drive it and with a little practice get the hang of it, this does not by any means mean they are ABLE to operate the vehicle safely and responsibly but operate it they can, its a task that is easily within the physical abilities of a human as is walking or talking we can all do it.

as we can all do it and as with most tasks we need to be taught how to do it legally and safely, this is where it gets mucky as some people cannot come to grips with the rules of the road, this makes them unsafe drivers and as such their license should not be issued or be revoked to prevent accidental harm to innocent third parties. And despite the authorities revoking or not issuing a license to drive this does not remove the ability to drive, it removes the legal ability to drive.

Auslandau · 31-05-2011, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Glad to see you quoted the constitution.... and youll note in the constitution we have no "bill of rights". We are however a signatory of the UN Bill of Human Rights.

If a government takes away "your rights" its called opression...
A licence IS NOT A RIGHT.
A right is something which everyone has no matter what colour they are, or what religion they are... you dont "earn" your rights, its should be automatic.
As an example workers rights for fair pay etc... its automatic.

Getting a drivers licence must be earned... and you must meet the requirements. Its not given to you automatically. Therefor its a previlidge.
Not everyone is allowed to drive.

Its akin to club, in order to enter a private club you must be a member or be accepted in.

Again we have NO RIGHTS in Australia as such (apart from human rights, which we must go to the UN in order to go to court over). Hence why some aborignals has gone to the UN in order to complain about their treatment and lack of human rights.

Do you honestly think the UN is interested in motor vehicle licencing?

Is Freedom a right? Free speech a right? That both of these can be taken away from you if you do not follow the rules? Please I hope you do not say they are a privilege bestowed upon us by the hierarchy?

To be a member of most clubs are a privilege, yes ..... you are accepted or rejected with no coarse of action available .... you do not get automatic acceptance and can be removed for no particular reason. Little bit like a dictatorship really run by a committee voted in by a minority.

Lets be a little melodramatic here for a sec ...... and this is the link to the actual topic at hand ..... everyone has the right to drive legally on any public road until a law is broken that can be upheld by a court and then you can no longer legally drive. Hoon laws ..... the definition can be deterimined by the police .... is this a good or bad thing? Where is the grey bit or the line and where is it going? Interpretations of the law to withhold property immediately could be dangerous and the interpretation of the law is left to individuals. If you were told to get off the Freeway but were doing nothing wrong I reckon you would say it was your right to be there driving on a public road along with everyone else?

I would say that Freedom of Speech is a right .... whether its in the constitution or not doesn't matter. You should be able to say your piece without being victimized .... but you are saying it is a privilege?
On the spot fine in Vic is $240.00 for public swearing ..... the definition can be determined by the police ..... Who determines the level of swearing, where and in what context .... same as who determines the level of hooning and in what context?

Rights can come and go ........ its just a matter of who decides and how easily these rights can be removed. Its pretty obvious that most don't care as they are not rights after all ...... just privileges given to us by people in power and we all just sit here and say "No worries. I was just privileged to be able to breath anyway and thanks for giving me permission" The way we are going you could loose your right to freedom, have no speech and then have your privileges removed by the big bald bloke in cell block 8 while thinking what the hell just happened.

Very melodramatic but thats how I see it

UNR8D · 31-05-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Is Freedom a right? Free speech a right? That both of these can be taken away from you if you do not follow the rules? Please I hope you do not say they are a privilege bestowed upon us by the hierarchy?

To be a member of most clubs are a privilege, yes ..... you are accepted or rejected with no coarse of action available .... you do not get automatic acceptance and can be removed for no particular reason. Little bit like a dictatorship really run by a committee voted in by a minority.

Lets be a little melodramatic here for a sec ...... and this is the link to the actual topic at hand ..... everyone has the right to drive legally on any public road until a law is broken that can be upheld by a court and then you can no longer legally drive. Hoon laws ..... the definition can be deterimined by the police .... is this a good or bad thing? Where is the grey bit or the line and where is it going? Interpretations of the law to withhold property immediately could be dangerous and the interpretation of the law is left to individuals. If you were told to get off the Freeway but were doing nothing wrong I reckon you would say it was your right to be there driving on a public road along with everyone else?

I would say that Freedom of Speech is a right .... whether its in the constitution or not doesn't matter. You should be able to say your piece without being victimized .... but you are saying it is a privilege?
On the spot fine in Vic is $240.00 for public swearing ..... the definition can be determined by the police ..... Who determines the level of swearing, where and in what context .... same as who determines the level of hooning and in what context?

Rights can come and go ........ its just a matter of who decides and how easily these rights can be removed. Its pretty obvious that most don't care as they are not rights after all ...... just privileges given to us by people in power and we all just sit here and say "No worries. I was just privileged to be able to breath anyway and thanks for giving me permission" The way we are going you could loose your right to freedom, have no speech and then have your privileges removed by the big bald bloke in cell block 8 while thinking what the hell just happened.

Very melodramatic but thats how I see it

^^ what he said...

Fireblade · 31-05-2011, 10:27 PM

Very true Auslandau, melodramatic yes, but the overall point is there. If I pay to use something then that is my right not a privilege, I have paid for that right, it hasn't been given to me.

Where does this end, first it was bikies, now hoons, whats next?

jcxr · 17-06-2011, 11:55 AM

Starting early JULY, new hoon laws will give the police the powers to seize a motor vehicle for 30 days on the first offence. Crushing the vehicle is also on the agenda for the "third strike".

ray38l · 17-06-2011, 12:01 PM

Its old news but what state?
Im guessing Nazi led Victoria.

jcxr · 17-06-2011, 12:10 PM

Yep, good old Victoria.

xisled · 17-06-2011, 12:19 PM

Do not be an idiot on the road, you will not get your car impounded. It is pretty simple. Only thing I do not like, is that a person can borrow my car get it impounded and I loose it for 30 days. That is wrong.

Streets · 17-06-2011, 12:25 PM

Don't let people drive your car then?

EDManual · 17-06-2011, 12:38 PM

rediculous, as if doing 45 or whatever over is dangerous on a perfect deserted country road where theres nothing to hit... (only danger is being caught)

Sure in the city down the main street with pedestrians you should lose your licence/car for doing 20 over, not where its not dangerous though.

Why isnt there a scale of something like 10% over you get this, 25% over that, 40% that, 60% that etc. Makes more sense.

So at the moment(soon to be anyway) you lose your car for doing 45km over in a 50 zone down the main street in geelong, or you lose your car for doing 45km over on the greedway to Melbourne in the middle of the night!
There is a MASSIVE difference in the danger of both (ie lots and near zero).

FPV+fteT3 · 17-06-2011, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDManual

rediculous, as if doing 45 or whatever over is dangerous on a perfect deserted country road where theres nothing to hit... (only danger is being caught)

Sure in the city down the main street with pedestrians you should lose your licence/car for doing 20 over, not where its not dangerous though.

Why isnt there a scale of something like 10% over you get this, 25% over that, 40% that, 60% that etc. Makes more sense.

So at the moment(soon to be anyway) you lose your car for doing 45km over in a 50 zone down the main street in geelong, or you lose your car for doing 45km over on the greedway to Melbourne in the middle of the night!
There is a MASSIVE difference in the danger of both (ie lots and near zero).

Stop trying to make sense you know pollies are brain dead except for ideas on raising revenue to increase their take home pay this is an area where they all excell.

icer · 17-06-2011, 12:45 PM

and what happens if your mum takes your car and is caught doing 80 in a 40 construction zone that she didn't see the sign in the dark?! Happend to my mum last week!

flappist · 17-06-2011, 12:46 PM

Remember, accidentally spinning the back wheels of a high powered car on a wet uphill grade from a traffic light after some diesel or oil has leaked from a 4WD hero is hooning.....

YES it happened to someone I know in Sunny Coast.

R1XSTA · 17-06-2011, 01:23 PM

Victorian laws have gone stupid lately. A 30 day impound is lunacy. They are also trying to proove a theory that they don't need to see the crime, they can assume it happened.

Road_Warrior · 17-06-2011, 01:30 PM

28 days here in Wait Awhile, although they don't crush people's cars, they sell them off.

EDManual · 17-06-2011, 01:36 PM

might have to invest in a 'heat' guided missile aimed to the rear (joke)

IAM58L · 17-06-2011, 01:45 PM

What I find funny is the way they jump up and down about someone spinning their wheels or even less. This will get your car impounded 30 days, but get a low range drink drive or higher and you get to keep your car. Seems all a bit silly to me. Its about time they level the playing feild and stop discriminating against us so called "hoons".

EDManual · 17-06-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAM58L

What I find funny is the way they jump up and down about someone spinning their wheels or even less. This will get your car impounded 30 days, but get a low range drink drive or higher and you get to keep your car. Seems all a bit silly to me. Its about time they level the playing feild and stop discriminating against us so called "hoons".

Absolutely! Drink driving is far worse, I have seen figures regarding "hoonin" and its possibly relating to something like 1 or 2% of crashes, and yet drink driving is relating to what 30+%!! Take their cars off em!

ray38l · 17-06-2011, 02:24 PM

I believe people who get caught drink driving should have there car taken off them with the possibility of it being crushed. The reason for that is I've known alcoholics who will continue to drive there car drunk no matter how many times they have been caught because they don't consider drinking a carton a day as being drunk. Taking the car away will prevent an addict from having immediate access to a car. I have never seen a hoon being addicted to driving stupid. Being a hoon can be cured by other enforcement methods and education/experience. An alcoholic will keep on driving until it isn't possible.
The worst part about hoon laws is that many people have become used to being controlled that they think its a good idea. I am surprised that they can actually take someone's private property and destroy it.
Unfortunately this thread won't last long because sudszy will come on tonight and ruin it.

drew1491 · 17-06-2011, 02:40 PM

Yep here in WA you lose your car for 28 day on first offence, no consideration given to time and place, as i recently discovered the hard way after getting a bit tail happy around a corner at 4 in the morning on a practicably empty road, its stupid may as well have lit it up down muarry st in the middle of the day would have been the same penalty, there is no danger to what i was doing, what i thing has happened is the police have found a group of people that are interested in cars and motoring and even though we are not doing anything dangerous they find it 'annoying' and therefor make it illegal, it doesnt help that the media make it out that for every skid done childeren are killed, its a load of crap and i cant belive how easily people are brainwashed

xisled · 17-06-2011, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDManual

rediculous, as if doing 45 or whatever over is dangerous on a perfect deserted country road where theres nothing to hit... (only danger is being caught)

Sure in the city down the main street with pedestrians you should lose your licence/car for doing 20 over, not where its not dangerous though.

Why isnt there a scale of something like 10% over you get this, 25% over that, 40% that, 60% that etc. Makes more sense.

So at the moment(soon to be anyway) you lose your car for doing 45km over in a 50 zone down the main street in geelong, or you lose your car for doing 45km over on the greedway to Melbourne in the middle of the night!
There is a MASSIVE difference in the danger of both (ie lots and near zero).

The law currently in Vic. If you get caught 45ks or above its an impound.

EDManual · 17-06-2011, 03:45 PM

^I know that, but its for 24 hours only. ^ Plus you still lose your licence for 6 months as well, so I dont really know what confiscating your car does for you anyway?

xisled · 17-06-2011, 04:12 PM

I can see why these laws are in place. I am not sure how many people on this forum have ever been to or taken part in an illegal street meet. But just imagine, a few hundread people stading around on a T intersection or a cross road intersection of an industrial area. Cars parked all around on the nature strip, 200 plus cars. The so called hoons, start doing burnouts in the middle of the intersection, then a car starts doing dougnuts, coming close to the by standers, I mean close as in less than 50 cms. No safty barriers. Nothing to protect anyone. Yes these may be only skids but can be very dangerous. I used to think that these laws are tough, But if you do not do the wrong thing you will not be booked.

StealthAu · 17-06-2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDManual

rediculous, as if doing 45 or whatever over is dangerous on a perfect deserted country road where theres nothing to hit... (only danger is being caught)

Sure in the city down the main street with pedestrians you should lose your licence/car for doing 20 over, not where its not dangerous though.

Why isnt there a scale of something like 10% over you get this, 25% over that, 40% that, 60% that etc. Makes more sense.

So at the moment(soon to be anyway) you lose your car for doing 45km over in a 50 zone down the main street in geelong, or you lose your car for doing 45km over on the greedway to Melbourne in the middle of the night!
There is a MASSIVE difference in the danger of both (ie lots and near zero).

If you are doing 45 over on a deserted country road, there is no one to catch you. It's pretty simple, long strat flat empty highways, if you see a car in the distance, slow down to the limit until you pass it.

xisled · 17-06-2011, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StealthAu

If you are doing 45 over on a deserted country road, there is no one to catch you. It's pretty simple, long strat flat empty highways, if you see a car in the distance, slow down to the limit until you pass it.

It may be simple to me and you to slow down if you see a car, but many would not get that.

LOL my 351st post. Just off topice a bit.

Franco Cozzo · 17-06-2011, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDManual

^I know that, but its for 24 hours only. ^ Plus you still lose your licence for 6 months as well, so I dont really know what confiscating your car does for you anyway?

It'll be 30 days now ith the new laws.

2011G6E · 17-06-2011, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StealthAu
If you are doing 45 over on a deserted country road, there is no one to catch you. It's pretty simple, long strat flat empty highways, if you see a car in the distance, slow down to the limit until you pass it.

I think that you're assuming a sense of responsability and a decent level of road craft amongst the average drivers out there. One that simply doesn't exist in most areas.
I would wager that the drivers on the Capricorn Highway between, say, Emerald and Rockhampton, would appear to be well above average as far as highway driving is concerned.
I'll sit the cruise control on 112 (GPS checked) in the 110 zone to head down to Rocky, and I'll be overtaken constantly by cars and four wheel drives. Same happens to me in the Celica, same when I'm on the motorbike. People just seem to be in a massive hurry out here, especially mine vehicles.
Yet the highway isn't littered with the wrecks of past incidents. In fact, the only real incidents out here are cars running off the road in a corner when the driver has fallen asleep...fatigue is the real danger out here, not speed as such.
In fact, you can notice is in the road safety signs...as soon as you turn off the main highway at Rocky and onto the Capricorn Highway to head inland towards Longreach, you start seeing signs saying "Fatigue: the number one highway killer", and "Is your driver alert?", and stuff like that, and none of the "speed kills" stuff you see on Highway One. It struck us as odd when we first moved out here.

It could be to do with the sheer amount of highway driving people experience out here...for us to simply go to the supermarket means jumping in the car and hitting the highway for the 20km drive to Blackwater...a trip to Emerald is nearly 100km away, Rocky is 170km in the other direction towards the coast, and after over three years living out here, the 170km trip to Rocky just seems like "no big thing"...something you suddenly decide to do, to "nip into Rocky and go to the shops there". . Our son got his licence and I reckon he easily logged more highway time in his first three months of driving than our other two kids back in Bundaberg did in thier first three years of driving. People seem to get used to the speed and highway driving.

Compared, I suppose, to people in cities during holiday periods, when they might not drive on the highway for long distances more than three or four times a year, and all suddenly hit the road at once.

I've always thought it's a good idea to hammer people driving like obvious idiots, especially in crowded town areas, but to simply lump everyone in with a tight little label of "hooning" is a bit silly and doesn't adress the real issues.
10kph over the limit on a major arterial road in the city? No big deal, maybe a caution...but 10kph over the limit in a school zone at 3.30pm with unpredictable kids everywhere, and your **** should quite rightly be grass.

Of course, the authorities aren't going to make fine distinctions...far easier to just slap a broad blanket label on things and say "don't speed", or "don't be a hoon", than to adress the actual issues and base their response on the individual situation they are dealing with at the moment, like police used to do in the old days not that long ago.