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FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2007
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#122 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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There are alegedly microphones everywhere..... |
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#123 | |||
Budget Racer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,420
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People who are advocates may accuse you of invoking a Homer Simpson mantra, "can't win, don't try". They may point out we will never stop drug traffickers, people smugglers or any number of things we have rules about. But is that a reason not to try? My problem is with the debate and it being hijacked by industry spin doctors. There are some genuine concerns about this filter. The government needs to be held to account for what they are actually proposing. Forming an opinion on an internet filter from the information on Whirlpool is like forming an opinion on gun control with information from the Sporting Shooters Association. Sure they are both well informed, but the information is one sided. Mark Newton is the pin up boy over on Whirlpool, it seems everything he says is taken as gospel. "The gentleman doth protest too much". He claims the filter will not work, and could never be made to work. Then says he will come down to parliament when it starts and beat it in 30 seconds? OK if he believes this to be true, why not wait until the trial is over and say "I told you so"? Mark Newton is everywhere http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2536879.htm was posted earlier in the thread. The IT expert that believes the filter can never be made to work is apparently very worried about it effecting our freedom of speech? "The gentleman doth protest too much". I believe ISP's don't want the filter because it will effect their business. It's incredible that 90% of all e-mail traffic is spam. How much of ISP's business will be effected by the government filters? Remember the government are proposing opt-in filters that, if they work, will filter way more than the blacklist. Who knows how much porn that is downloaded could be blocked? ISP's do.
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#124 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barossa Valley, South Australia
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The other thing about Mark is that yes, he does work for an ISP here in Adelaide, but he has said all along that the views he express on the filtering is his own and not that of the ISP he works for. Me personally, I do see a use of the opt-in filter for families that would like it. I have no issues with that what so ever. I'm personally against the mandatory filtering as who regulates the regulators of that list and the filter doesn't address the issue of the illegal material being produced in the first place. Sure, block one continent from being able to see it, no problems. What about the other continents on the earth? They'll still be able to see this material and it'll still be produced as the demand is there. Governments should be cracking down on the production of these materials, drugs also as you alluded to. Doing something about the distribution of it won't stop the production.
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#125 | ||
R u a Fogwit or a HIDiot?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 494
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Workhorse you failed to give any answers to the points that were made earlier and have yet to give one single reason as to why this is a good idea!
Talk about spam and the like has nothing to do with this. And as for the bypass......http://proxy.org/cgi_proxies.shtml click. done. didnt take 30 seconds did it?
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#126 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 19
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Guys there is big uproar about this. You can see what is happening and show support here. http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet/442
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#127 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Posts: 421
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#128 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barossa Valley, South Australia
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#129 | |||||
Budget Racer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,420
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The filter is not designed to stop the production of illegal material so I don't see that as a reason to not do a trial. We can not demand other countries followed Australia's lead with a filter, but many may. Cracking down on the production of illegal should and is being done, but we should be doing a range of things including trialing a filter.
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#130 | ||||
Budget Racer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,420
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You don't think the filter is a good idea, and you don't see any benefits. These statements are true, you believe them and I believe you believe them, I can not prove otherwise.
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#131 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: South Australia
Posts: 3,173
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In a business sense I don't think ISP's really care about if it blocks a certain types of traffic or not, they don't make money on how much stuff is downloaded, infact the opposite is true really.
As far as spam they would all be very glad if it blocked all spam believe me!, the main business reason why they care is the cost of implementing these systems that the majority of users do not want, and systems that are easily bypassed. (And they are!) The only way to stop it would be to stop VPN traffic, which will not happen. Mark is vocal about this because he like a lot of us do not want the great firewall of Australia! Especially since this Firewall will make the $44bn NBN slower than 90% of current ADSL access..
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#132 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 14,654
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The ISP's wont like it because if people's average monthly download needs are reduced by way of restriction/censorship they'll reduce their plans.
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#133 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: South Australia
Posts: 3,173
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Most of the traffic is P2P though, which something else that cannot be filtered.. Most things that will be blocked by the filter are websites, which are in reality only a small amount of data, compared to how things are obtained in other ways.
In reality the only effect the Big Firewall of Australia on the amount people download will be the speed that they can download, even then they'll still be able to download their monthly supply of porn still, it will just take a bit longer!
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#134 | ||
R u a Fogwit or a HIDiot?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 494
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Yes workhorse I do think its a bad idea! And no I cant see any benefits!
But if you can give me one based on fact then I am happy to take it on board! All the discussion about pron is extremely misleading. Even the Senator is only talking about blocking up to 10,000 sites. So it wont have any impact on teens looking up porn..... 242,000,000 results in google. That only leaves 239,990,000 sites.
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#135 | ||||
Budget Racer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,420
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There is much debate about; how, what, when, who regarding the filters. So the government is having a trial to see what is feasible. This is a fact, I think it is a good idea, and has benefits. What problem do you have with a trial?
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#136 | |||||
Regular Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Posts: 421
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If it was purely opt-in, why bother? There is already filtering software available to implement this and, until recently, it was available for free under the previous government's policy. I believe the free software was scrapped, partly because hardly anybody used it - there's an indicator of the popularity of filtering, I guess. As for the "benefits"... if you're going to tout the benefits, you also need to consider the drawbacks - of which there are many raised in this thread. In any other arena, you would consider a cost/benefit analysis before attempting to implement such an idea. If the costs (not just monetary) vastly outweigh the benefits (as they do, in my opinion), its farcical to continue down that track. Finally, I think my crystal ball is on the money: http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpos...&postcount=111 Quote:
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How can you possibly support such a ludicrous policy? |
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#137 | ||||
Budget Racer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,420
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#138 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 963
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are we actually being censored becasue I can't see it, I can still do everything I was doing 13 years ago and even more thanks to high speed internet.
in fact 100% of my digital entertainment still comes from the net, whether it be movies [of all kinds], songs, games etc... the list goes on and on and apart from the ISP costs it's all FREE! i don't see censorship anywhere on the net, i see it more on tv, in victoria you wouldn't think any other sport exists on the planet bar AFL. |
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#139 | |||
R u a Fogwit or a HIDiot?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 494
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Anything that is RC will be able to be added to the list. And any game that is rated more than MA15+ is RC in Australia. Welcome to the reality of the proposed censorship. And Torquen Turbo, it hasnt started yet except for a trial thats covering about .001% of users. Rudd has to get it passed in the senate yet to make it law.
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#140 | ||||
Regular Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Posts: 421
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Did you (Work Horse) read the article from The Age that I linked? Here it is with additional emphasis by me: Quote:
You claim that you support the trial, to see what is possible... yet in the same sentence you say there is no policy to support. If there is no policy, or no agenda if you like, then where is the filtering trial stemming from? What's the point of the trial if they don't plan to implement anything? Anything is possible. It's possible for the government to block access to the Internet entirely... maybe we should trial that next? |
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#141 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Posts: 421
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I'd wager the numbers of each is greater than zero. If 90% of the volume of email traffic is spam, does it not stand to reason that the spam filter vendors would want those filters work as best they can possibly make them? Yet spam still gets through, and legitimate emails still get marked as spam incorrectly. The point I'm trying to make is that the problem with spam and email is far, far greater than the ~10,000 sites that the web filter is intending to block (out of, what, hundreds of millions of sites?) - if they can't get the spam filters 100% effective and accurate, what makes the government think that the web filter will be any different? Practically every email service now has a spam filter attached to it - out of necessity, really. Has implementing spam filters had any effect on the volume of spam messages being sent? Doubtful. What was the response from the spammers once filters were in widespread use? They came up with clever ways to bypass the filters - misspellings, embedding images and even embedding warped images to thwart any analysis of the text contained within an image. Is spam still an issue and a problem? Absolutely. Take the email analogy and apply it to the web filter. Will the web filter do anything to stop the production of objectionable material? No. Will those that still want to access this material find ways to bypass the filter? I wouldn't bet against it. |
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#142 | |||||
Budget Racer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,420
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The government can not simply block sites at will, or they would rightly be accused of doing so for their own ends. So the government are keeping the decisions about which sites are blocked at arms length by delegating the authority to the ACMA. Now the ACMA have their own problems, but that is a whole other argument, and not a reason not to trial a filter IMHO. The criteria the ACMA use to decide what is restricted content was set down by the previous Howard Government. The current government may or may not be happy with it but that is what they have to work with. The anomaly with video games that do not meet the MA15+ standard, being classed as R18+ was in place before the current government was elected. The idea that it is some conspiracy to increase censorship or a reason not to trial a filter hold no water IMHO.
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12.1@112Mph 285rwkw on n2o Cleveland Power Last edited by Work Horse; 28-06-2009 at 01:17 AM. |
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#143 | |||
Budget Racer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,420
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What sort of efforts do we go to trying to stop; murders, drug trafficking, sexual assault, drink driving or any crime on our statutes? And how many crimes that we have laws for have we actually managed to stop? It's not an argument to stop trying IMHO
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#144 | |||
R u a Fogwit or a HIDiot?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 494
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Its merely hiding the crime that still occours, while doing nothing to stop it (except taking the money that could have been used to stop it to pay for the LALALA noises) ![]() And if the post before that (and Im sorry but I dont know how to qoute the second bit so I have cut and pasted it) "This is rubbish, as the article you posted quotes from the Ministers office;"if a complaint is received and the content is determined by ACME to be Refused Classification", then and only then will that content be blocked. Clearly not, "the entire site" as you claim, and only if a complain is made and deemed R18+ by an independent bunch of public servants"......... Hang on your agreeing with us here...... when a site is sent to the ACMA and its content is determined to be RC (As all MA15+ games are) then its blocked. Accusing everyone who can read the admittedly ever changing policy of hysteria when its clear thats the case be they for or against it seems to be very much a case of blindly believing Conroy or the ACLs hype?
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#145 | ||||
Regular Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Posts: 421
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If there is no real benefit in what you are trying to do or if the benefits of what you are trying are far outweighed by the detriments ('Can't win'), then why waste millions of dollars of taxpayer's money trying to implement a scheme that: (a) many don't want, (b) cannot possibly be 100% effective (even if they come up with a magical filter that is 100% effective, it only covers web protocols - what about p2p, ftp, etc.?), (c) is easily bypassed by those that still want access, (d) will likely have significant effects on performance/cost, and, most importantly, (e) does absolutely nothing to stop those committing the crimes in the first place (in fact, by diverting funding from law enforcement - as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, it may even have the opposite effect) ('Don't try') Quote:
The thing you don't seem to understand, or what to admit, is that this proposed filter will do absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop, deter, punish or help catch those responsible. |
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#146 | ||||
Budget Racer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,420
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If we extent the argument you are trying to make about internet content, back to where the restrictions came from, would you remove all restriction in place on print and broadcast material? No need to answer that one. We can, and do argue about where the line in the sand should be, but that is no reason to not trial a filter IMHO
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#147 | ||
R u a Fogwit or a HIDiot?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 494
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"Communications Minister Stephen Conroy has urged detractors of the Government's proposed Internet Filtering scheme to have faith in their elected parliamentarians to pass the right legislation."
To have faith in the censorship of debate on euthanasia, abortion and such evils as grafitti. To have faith that censoring 10000 urls out of a trillion urls will keep kids safe everywhere. To have faith that 30 year olds everywhere in Australia will be free of the scourge of evil computer games like lesuire suit larry and fallout 3. If you think the internet is so evil then use one of the FREE filters that many ISPs offered..........admittedly many have dropped them as people were NOT using them. Obviously there is a huge public mandate for something that no one would even take up for free. I fear you are putting far to much faith in far to incompetent man in Conroy. He clearly does not understand any of the policy effects let alone the technical side of things.
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#148 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
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Throwing it out there that the Victorian Sex Crimes division has only four officers working on catching pedophiles in online environments. They share a PC, Wii, PS3 and 360 and say it's "like shooting fish in a barrel". Interesting how we spend millions on stopping adults from accessing legitimate content online (say flash games - govt has stated that the filter will now cover unclassified content online, so flash games, ITunes app store, MMOs like WoW are all out) and yet there are only four guys protecting the children.
The filter is beginning to cross over into the issues affecting the woeful classification system in Australia. I'm a gamer, so I worry that games like Bioshock that are classified as an adult game in other countries is given a badge that lets a 15 yo play it. By all means, protect the kids. But internet filtering is doing it wrong. |
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#149 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 14,654
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The internet filter concept is no different to the speed camera concept, its a subliminal admission that they cant isolate and deal only with the problem so they broad-brush blanket target everyone. Its the old story 1% stuff it for 99%....
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#150 | ||||
Back to Le Frenchy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Back home.....
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