Holden secures $200m subsidy

[burnz]

Originally Posted by dylancox

Epsilon sounds like something Daewoo or Hyundai would name one of their cars. FWD Platform?

he's refering to epsilon 2..malibu size.
super epsilon 2 is the same size as the VE/VF zeta 2..

zeta II, super epsilon II, omega. are designed for fwd, transverse rwd, awd, rwd..

[stang65]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Geez, I didn't realise I'm on here bitching that my Ford has things falling off, or it's rusting out and I'm having my backside raped by a Ford dealership.

BTW, great to see by your username, you support your local car manufacturer.

I own both a 65 mustang convertible and a BA xr6 turbo purchased brand spanking new also my wife drives a Ford Territory also purchased brand spanking new. Not that I need to explain myself. I hope that settles your curiosity. So i feel as I have supported my local car manufacturer and intend to in the future.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Prior to the establishment of Ford Australia in 1925, Ford chassis were imported & bodied locally by individual state distributors. I'll see if I can find more info on what cranked up at Geelong & when, plus no doubt some of our Geelong-based friends with connections to the plant will know a lot more than me!

from memory both holden and ford had to do in house from the onset of war.
they could only import chassis, build their own bodys..HMBB.

http://www.duncanandfraser.com/ford%...ia%20first.htm
duncan coach works.
http://www.duncanandfraser.com/dalgety%20original.htm
dalgety..

[stevz]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...322-1vmb4.html

Commodore dead ... or is it?
March 23, 2012 - 11:26AM

The Commodore, as we know it, may not be around for much longer.

Top secret Commodore future is still under wraps.

The Australian Commodore is dead, but there will likely be Holden's fingerprints on the car that replaces it - which could be called Commodore.

Confused? Good, that's what Holden wants - for now, at least - so its competitors don't get a whiff of the crucial new model that will form the basis for the company's local operations out to at least 2022.

Yesterday's announcement that General Motors Holden will commit at least $1 billion to its local operations - on top of a generous $275 million government subsidy - prompted a barrage of questions to chairman and managing director Mike Devereux about what it means for the iconic large car.


It's understandable for a car with such a rich heritage. The Commodore has been produced locally since 1978, replacing a nameplate just as iconic - Kingswood. Until last year it was the best seller for 15 straight years.

And it's been sold in countries as diverse as the United States, the Middle East, China and Brazil. Everyone in Australia has heard of the Commodore.

Devereux batted down every question, giving few clues as to what the next all new car (due about 2018) may look - or feel - like, and, indeed, whether there will be a future Commodore.

"What the car looks like [has not] even been finalised, nor will it be for a couple of years," he said.

All he is saying is that Holden has committed to developing "well in excess of" $1 billion into two next generation models that will be produced alongside each other at the company's Elizabeth production line in South Australia.

He has all but confirmed that one of those cars will be the next generation Cruze small car and confirmed Holden's "extremely talented" design and engineering team "have been doing a lot of work on the next generation [small car architecture] Delta in our Port Melbourne studios."

As for the Commodore? That's another question, and Devereux is far more guarded about giving clues to what the replacement for the large car will be called, which almost certainly will the second architecture that will be built in Australia - among other countries.

"I'm not going to tell you," was the response when pushed on the Commodore's future, pointing to the secrecy within electronics giant Apple, even among its employees. "We're not going to talk ... about things that are commercially sensitive."

However, he reaffirmed his commitment to large cars, giving the strongest hint yet that a sizeable sedan of some sort will long term continue to be produced in Australia.

"I wouldn't be investing hundreds of millions of dollars in the [2013 VF] Commodore if I didn't believe in the large car segment," said Devereux. "I absolutely believe in it. Having the number two [selling] car in the country is a good thing."

However, there were also clues that the next generation Commodore could shrink; since 1978 every new generation Commodore has grown in size.

"Do I think there's a market for cars bigger than Cruzes and Corollas? Absolutely. Figuring out what vehicles larger than Cruze or Corolla or Mazda3 for Australia is is part of the magic of the car industry."

When pressed if that meant the locally-produced car could be a medium car, he said: "I'm not going to go down that path".

Another big unknown is whether the Commodore replacement - assuming that's the car that will be produced here - will drive the rear wheels, as most Australian-made large sedans have. Rear-wheel-drive is seen as a must for high-powered performance cars, including the V8-powered Commodores that in many ways define the Commodore brand and these days account for about one in four sales.

But the world has been trending to front-drive cars for decades, largely thanks to advantages with packaging (leading to more interior space) and reduced weight, which reduces fuel use.

Devereux wouldn't answer a specific question about front- or rear-wheel-drive, although he has previously said that rear-drive is a crucial part of the Commodore's DNA.

"I think [rear-wheel-drive] it's absolutely critical," Devereux told Drive last year. "It's a critical part of the DNA."

Devereux also said the new architectures would potentially use alternative fuels, including - possibly - diesel or even partially electric or hybrid drivetrains.

"We definitely have some ideas around all sorts of different powertrains, be they diesel powertrains ... or e-assist [partially electric] that are pretty popular. We haven't made decisions on those sorts of things."

As for the Australian-ness of the Commodore - a car initially spawned from a European Opel - it's likely to be further diluted. Although, again, there were few clues.

While he didn't repeat the words of one reporter asking if "the Australian Holden ... is dead?", he didn't disagree with the notion.

"Those are your words," he said.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by stevz

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...322-1vmb4.html

nice try drive, ha ha.

[tranquilized]

Seems to me Holden have at least one RWD (Alpha) platform that could easily underpin a smaller car for Australia.

What do Ford have? As far as I can tell, talk of GRWD or combining Mustang with Falcon is baseless fantasy at best.

As horrible as it sounds, I can see Holden with a compact RWD with a full range of engines including V8's with HSV varients, while Ford has a Taurus or Mondeo based overweight sleep inducing transverse mounted FWD/AWD pile of s***

Sorry for being so negative, but it is a possible scenario.

If the Mustang came out however, that could be Fords saviour for the enthusiast market. Interesting times ahead!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by burnz

he's refering to epsilon 2..malibu size.
super epsilon 2 is the same size as the VE/VF zeta 2..

zeta II, super epsilon II, omega. are designed for fwd, transverse rwd, awd, rwd..

Zeta II is being engineered by GM Shanghai and is basically (read only) the LWB Caprice/Buick Park Avenue variant.

[borough]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Seems to me Holden have at least one RWD (Alpha) platform that could easily underpin a smaller car for Australia.

What do Ford have? As far as I can tell, talk of GRWD or combining Mustang with Falcon is baseless fantasy at best.

As horrible as it sounds, I can see Holden with a compact RWD with a full range of engines including V8's with HSV varients, while Ford has a Taurus or Mondeo based overweight sleep inducing transverse mounted FWD/AWD pile of s***

Sorry for being so negative, but it is a possible scenario.

If the Mustang came out however, that could be Fords saviour for the enthusiast market. Interesting times ahead!

It has turned all negative since this http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...stang_platform

[brett7777]

So no Falcon after 2016, no Commodore after 2016. Both GM & Ford say they will use a 'global platform'.
I guess eventually these rear wheel drives are gonna disappear...unless we get the mustang platform???

[jpd80]

Reading between the lines on the Ford side, Joe Hindricks said that before the meeting with Senator Carr last September,
it (Falcon) wasn't part of the plan. I take it that Ford was heading down the path of the AWD car hinted at by Jay Mays.
Senator Carr flies to Shanghai, talks to FAPA brass and a plan is hatched to secure funding for a 2014-2016 Falcon.

Edit,
The problem created by doing that is Taurus and Falcon become out of sync, next Gen Taurus arrives in 2014
and Falcon hangs around for another two years...

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by stang65

I own both a 65 mustang convertible and a BA xr6 turbo purchased brand spanking new also my wife drives a Ford Territory also purchased brand spanking new. Not that I need to explain myself. I hope that settles your curiosity. So i feel as I have supported my local car manufacturer and intend to in the future.

So do you whinge and whine about the service you get, along with the problems associated with these?

Oh and just for your interest. I own a Ford I own a Holden and I own a Valiant and I don't whinge and whine about dealer servicing, or if something is ready to drop off, on this forum. I just fix the problems when they arrise, by using what's missing from inside my head.

Now back to the topic. Personally, I am glad both Ford and Holden are still manufacturing cars within this country. Without them, who knows what unemployment figures would be like.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by borough

It has turned all negative since this http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...stang_platform

This still holds true even though Burela was talking in 2010:

Burela stressed that planning for the next new Falcon is barely into the research stage, with no urgency on any sort of commitment. He also hinted that it would be possible for the car to share much of its basic mechanical package with the next all-new Mustang, but with a local body above the mechanical package.

"The Falcon's changeover is due to take place at the end of 2014, or early in 2015. Our decisions . . . for Falcon don't have to be made until we get through to the middle of 2011. So we have time on our hands. "At the moment, all is well on the Falcon side of things. All is very well."

[Fourd1]

Originally Posted by svo_supporter
They'll flock if the build quality is good. reading round here, I wouldn't buy a Ford, for fear of something breaking, or falling off.
Well are you doing here if you dont like Ford then?


^^^What the hell are 80% of the members doing here! All i see is ford bagging on a ford forum? What the hell? No wonder the falcon is near dead! Ford don't need enemys with so called fans like these.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

BTW, great to see by your username, you support your local car manufacturer.

Like your one is better?

SVO Supporter: Fixing fords ####ups?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by brett7777

So no Falcon after 2016, no Commodore after 2016. Both GM & Ford say they will use a 'global platform'.
I guess eventually these rear wheel drives are gonna disappear...unless we get the mustang platform???

I would be very skeptical of anyone saying thet FWD/AWD or RWD is a done deal at this point,
both manufacturers have global vehicles and access to other strategies that use off the shelf technology.
The key here is eliminating the $800 million odd spent at the start of past product cycles, cut that to $300 million and its game on..

Ford can argue and is demonstrating that E8 can evolve and become a different car,
I doubt that the Zeta package is anywhere near flexible enough, but Alpha may work..

[csv8]

My 2007 BF Ghia has done 90,000kms. Only replaced rear diff bushes, L)front control arm ,tyres and wiper blades. Falling apart for sure !!! Still have it, must be happy with it!!
2007 Fez Zetec..48,000kms..nothing fallen off yet!!!!

[burnz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I would be very skeptical of anyone saying thet FWD/AWD or RWD is a done deal at this point,
both manufacturers have global vehicles and access to other strategies that use off the shelf technology.
The key here is eliminating the $800 million odd spent at the start of past product cycles, cut that to $300 million and its game on..

Ford can argue and is demonstrating that E8 can evolve and become a different car,
I doubt that the Zeta package is anywhere near flexible enough, but Alpha may work..

mike devereux and andrea mathews were talking and he said it's RWD, but wouldn't state if was still called commodore.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by burnz

mike devereux and andrea mathews were talking and he said it's RWD, but wouldn't state if was still called commodore.

No he didn't.. Mike Devereux has very clearly said "not telling you" when questioned about any details for this vehicle..

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by burnz

http://www.menziesvirtualmuseum.org.au/1910s/1910.html

there was an adelaide company who made them local for ford,
cant remember the name...dampier, diper, dileger...
frustrating cause on the tip of tounge. duncan bodys

i just reread what you asked 1930's..

Ford Australia started in 1925 using the converted Dalgety Woolstores to assemble CKD, it wasn't until the new plant was built around the late 20's that they pressed their own panels. Once the new plant was built they could build whatever they wanted, and they didn't need imported chassis's or bodies from coach builders. They were making uniquely Australian vehicles decades before Holden did. But for some ridiculous reason the FX Holden has somehow become "the first australian car". It was just a modified Chev, no different from Ford making modified US Fords back in the 20's.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

No he didn't.. Mike Devereux has very clearly said "not telling you" when questioned about any details for this vehicle..

It depends on two vehicles being developed in the USA at the moment, Cadillac ATS and the next CTS
which will grow to near Commodore size, there is a belief that Alpha is flexible enough to cover vehicles
from just above Cruze to Commodore but not Caprice/ Buick Park Avenue which will stay on Zeta II.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by XWGT

You owe me some sheep stations.....

Per-Country Per-Capita government assistance to auto-industry:

Australia $17.80
Canada $96.39,
France $147.38,
Germany $90.37,
Sweden $334
UK $27
US $264.

Now that's just absolute crap. By your figures, Australian assistance comes to about $400 million a year. The 600,000 imported cars subject to 5% tarrifs raise more than that alone (yes that is indirect government assistance). And figures for the US for example include the Feds ownership of GM etc.

Next you will be telling us that holden will actually be investing $1 billion dollars to get their hands on the government money.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Now that's just absolute crap. By your figures, Australian assistance comes to about $400 million a year. The 600,000 imported cars subject to 5% tarrifs raise more than that alone (yes that is indirect government assistance). And figures for the US for example include the Feds ownership of GM etc.

Next you will be telling us that holden will actually be investing $1 billion dollars to get their hands on the government money.

Makes you wonder whether they were going to invest the money anyway and that the bluff to leave was just that.
IMO, there's a lot of legalized price transferring going on by sourcing a lot of the expensive parts from overseas,
you probably find that GM makes almost as much money doing this as opposed to the logistics nightmare
of importing cars from Asia or North America.

I would support retention of a nominal 5% tariff on imported cars and use that money to support local manufacturers,
it's quite obvious that Asian manufacturers are doing price transfers to to minimize taxes in Australia.

[stang65]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

So do you whinge and whine about the service you get, along with the problems associated with these?

Oh and just for your interest. I own a Ford I own a Holden and I own a Valiant and I don't whinge and whine about dealer servicing, or if something is ready to drop off, on this forum. I just fix the problems when they arrise, by using what's missing from inside my head.

Now back to the topic. Personally, I am glad both Ford and Holden are still manufacturing cars within this country. Without them, who knows what unemployment figures would be like.

I Dont whinge both the xr6 turbo and the Terry have never missed a beat in the 7 and 6 years of ownership. I think they are both awesome cars.

[Crazy Dazz]

I don’t understand why the Labour party insists on ******* the economy and local manufacturing, THEN hands out cash to keep GM manufacturing in Australia?
Why not just make it possible for local manufacturing to be competitive and incentivise exports. Then companies would WANT to INCREASE the manufacturing in Australia, without constant handouts just to maintain the status quo.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by whynot

The question should be if is a better investment option. Spend the $200M retraining the workers into mining related roles and make a few billion tax more. It is a political bailout.

What makes you think the mining industry is a big employer, sure it might pay more but it is a minnow in the employment stakes in Australia.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Makes you wonder whether they were going to invest the money anyway and that the bluff to leave was just that.
IMO, there's a lot of legalized price transferring going on by sourcing a lot of the expensive parts from overseas,
you probably find that GM makes almost as much money doing this as opposed to the logistics nightmare
of importing cars from Asia or North America.

I would support retention of a nominal 5% tariff on imported cars and use that money to support local manufacturers,
it's quite obvious that Asian manufacturers are doing price transfers to to minimize taxes in Australia.

Without getting anyone into trouble lets just say I have a "contact" in one of the "big 4 accounting firms" and their Transfer Pricing field of expertise is a growing & lucrative revenue stream for the partners.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Without getting anyone into trouble lets just say I have a "contact" in one of the "big 4 accounting firms" and their Transfer Pricing field of expertise is a growing & lucrative revenue stream for the partners.

Thank you...
Perhaps I should be more careful throwing that term around as it's seen in the same light
as tax evasion when perhaps the analogy of tax avoidance is a better one...

A subtle change in sourcing of parts from abroad has grown into almost a quasi tax shelter.
Let no one be left guessing that the use of global platforms means that Holden will buy
intellectual property from its parent company expressed as part of the development cost
and definitely a lot of the local set up cost....that money goes straight out of Australia
and if they close down the engine plant, ditto for importing engines and transmissions.

Get my drift?

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Thank you...
Perhaps I should be more careful throwing that term around as it's seen in the same light
as tax evasion when perhaps the analogy of tax avoidance is a better one...

A subtle change in sourcing of parts from abroad has grown into almost a quasi tax shelter.
Let no one be left guessing that the use of global platforms means that Holden will buy
intellectual property from its parent company expressed as part of the development cost
and definitely a lot of the local set up cost....that money goes straight out of Australia
and if they close down the engine plant, ditto for importing engines and transmissions.

Get my drift?

Sorry, I didn't mean getting you in trouble, let's be frank it's tax minimization, avoidance, "legalized" cheating, etc, etc I don't like it as it hurt's one country, usually Aust. and favours another. Actually can't think of a situation where Aust ever gets a benefit in such global dealings, even with FTA's. This is where a global unified tax approach is needed but will never, ever happen. Hell, we have state vs state here in Oz trying to win (played by) corporate favour, imagine international interests, lol.

And I'm staggered at the lack of motoring media using the Commo could be dead tag. I guess the reason is Holden has pushed they line that they will be manufactuing her until 2022 while Ford gets hung up on what the next Falcon might be and can't offically say yet what it will be, where it will be sourced etc,..

[Nikked]

It will be interesting to see what ford will do over the next few months, surely they will be looking closely at holdens planning and draw conclusions from that...


It's almost like the XD v's VB in some aspects...


Holden drops its homegrowen large sedan in favor of a smaller car based on an overseas platform....

Only difference is, has Ford got a Blackwood type car in the pipeline, or will it go down the Granda route....

[jpd80]

When using a global or shared platform, the biggest savings come from sharing the development cost
and setting up common supplier networks and contracts, not so much from where it gets built.
The actual cost of labor in building a car is nowhere near as much as it was decades ago in the
days of manual body and paint shops. Automation has off set a lot of those labor costs.
and with a three to one government tip in on projects, you can bet the sums are right for local production.