Industrial relations worker legislation (end of an era) your thoughts

[deesun]

As it's easy for me to go as I work nights and finish @ 7am then my word I will be at my local meeting place.

[mik]

i saw this thread a while ago but did not want to comment because im not clued up , but a friend mentioned that if minimum wages is lowered this will affect pensioners,and wellfare recipients because these are derived from minimum wage, the howard costello government are masters of misinformation even malcom fraser was shocked at his party apparently, i dont like where our country is heading, one day it appears we will be working for 2$ an hour and required to do 70 hours a week no holiday pay. people talk about unions being a self serving organisation, but the reason we had many good things was because of unions in my book, there is very little security in our jobs any more, i fear soon there will be none, anyone see howard put a wreath on remeberance day good on him, yet he strives to take away all the ideals the diggers died for .

[SpoolMan]

Mik your spot on, the pensioners are joining in the campaign along with the disabled that will have to do 15 hours a week work to get there pension...
Some off the biggest support is coming from the church's as they have to pick up the pieces through there Charity's.
Tuesday is the day for protest should be a big turn out..

[mik]

yep i think they are going too far this time, maybe im too old but i have been in the workforce for 30 years and the little people seem to be getting stomped on more and more, i hope this act can be stopped

[gtfpv]

big protest coming guys tuesday . stand up for the rights you once had .as people are saying this most likely wont affect those of us who have accumulated assets such as a house and car and full time job . it is for our kids those in school . they need to have rights and deserve a right to live as we do .if we dont fight this many of our children will live in poverty .our parents and grand parents fought for the rights and conditions we have today . lets fight for our childrens rights.

[Black XR6]

Having not read the entire thread. I will comment anyhow.

If these changes are so good for everybody? Why are the employers and all the bodies representing companies going out of their way to endorse it whilst virtually every body representing the employee is dead against it. Someone said people are commenting on pub gossip and that the unions and I gather all other people opposing it, are not informed on the facts. I would argue that they are better informed of the facts than anybody posting here. Both official sides of the debate are. Also, how can you say that when the legislation is quite easy to find and read for yourself.

My personal belief is we have a fair system now. If an employer is worried about hiring someone and being stuck with them then hire them under casual employment and give them full time hours. My point is for all the changes coming into effect there is already adequate and in my opinion fair mechanisms in place to deal with those issues.

The amendments in my opinion are Howards attack on the Union movement which we all know is and always will be pro labour. Its also a gift to the businesses of Australia. Its a well known fact labour acts for the workers and liberal is all for companies. So Johnny is acting on the companies behalf not the workers even though he would argue the point no doubt.

Finally. This massive workplae reform was not part of howards last election platform. Sure, hes been planning it for ever, but it was not mentioned in his election campaign because it would have spelt the end of his term. Now, we are lumped with these changes without a say in them ( we did not get to vote based on thise legislation) and will just have to put up with it. My only hope is that the states can veto the changes in the high court.

If johnny is so sure he has got it right and we will all be better off. Why dosnt he put it to a referendum?

[bindi]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

big protest coming guys tuesday

When/where/time?!

[XAGSV8]

Originally Posted by Black XR6

My personal belief is we have a fair system now. If an employer is worried about hiring someone and being stuck with them then hire them under casual employment and give them full time hours. My point is for all the changes coming into effect there is already adequate and in my opinion fair mechanisms in place to deal with those issues.

No offense but have you ever run a business? Hiring somebody as casual and giving them full time hours will result in REM (wages) being blown out of the water. Aussie workers get it good and they will still get it good with the new system. With the current system my personal belief is it is holding company's back from expanding dramatically. If company's have this oportunity to expand it will only mean more jobs for everybody. There will still be EBA agreements with the new system and what all the negative campaining is about at the moment is really the unions getting worried about losing a tiny bit of their stranglehold on the workplace. People Australia should be given the oportunity to compete with the rest of the world and a system that's been around since the early 1900's is not going to do that.

Bit of topic but anybody here who has tried to dismiss somebody before would realise how impossible it is. I had one girl who would not turn up to work a couple of day's every week, she was in her probationary period and basically it was still imposible to get rid of her. Another one is a person in the business who stole some property from the business, that person still works for the company.

On another note Australia has a major skills shortage at the moment so if you are a decent person getting a job is not as hard as you may think. I am so desperate to find people at the moment I had to stick signs all over my workplace just to say come in and apply for a job if you want one. Personally I have come to the conclusion that the most of the 4.9% of the population that are unemployed are not employable.

[ebxr8240]

I agree the sacking law needed fixing but why throw the whole system out?
I can see the less educated being on lower wages...
We'll be like U.K where they have Russian people cleaning hotel rooms etc for very low wages...Except they'll be from Asia in our case...
This could bring in more troubles with relations etc..
I remember heaps of strikes when Frazzer was in gov...His excuse was " life wasn't meant to be easy"..This debate seems to be on what side of gov you support..
Without overtime in some work places I can see repaires will NOT be done until next day as people won't work in an emergancy at same hour rate...But that doesn't apply to factory worker in most cases....

[Black XR6]

GSWXA: You are obviously an employer. So gee, I wonder what side of the fence you are on.

In the long run there will always be a division between employers and employees. I guess in the long run we will find out if these changes were for the best.

[Black XR6]

Without overtime in some work places I can see repaires will NOT be done until next day as people won't work in an emergancy at same hour rate...But that doesn't apply to factory worker in most cases....

The cars will still get fixed. The workers just wont get paid for the work. If they dont like it they can go elsewhere and the company will find someone who will. That will be the threat. Wether or not the labour is there to back the claim who knows. But the threat will still be there.

I guess I am dead against it because I worked for a company that took every opportunity they could to undermine their employees and pay them less. I know they will be rubbing their greedy hands together at this legislation. That in a nutshell is what worries me about it.

[XAGSV8]

Originally Posted by Black XR6

GSWXA: You are obviously an employer. So gee, I wonder what side of the fence you are on.

In the long run there will always be a division between employers and employees. I guess in the long run we will find out if these changes were for the best.

Yes I am but I honestly think the new system will benifit everybody in the long run. Sure there will be people who are worse off but name a new act that nobody is disadvantaged by. The law is about taking Australia forward not slowing it down.

[SpoolMan]

Its easy to dismiss someone if the Boss has followed the correct procedures, what the Boss is worried about is it costs nothing for the worker to take him for a unfair dismissal... if he hasn't followed the correct procedures he losses... if he has followed the correct way of dismissal he wins is this not fair..
Why are we getting rid of the industrial relations commission this is our independent umpire...
Skills shortages have come about because business won’t hire apprentices (normal excuses we can’t find anyone Suitable) and government's need to spend more on training they keep cutting funding for Tafe and University’s every year there shortages for places...
So much for there Enterprise agreements, if it’s not reached within 3 months they reverts back to the minimum wage. (So the Boss can hold out and sign nothing).
Kevin Andrews own department took 16 months to reach there last EB agreement.
A secret Ballot must be held and run by the electoral commission how long will these take 8 weeks to take a vote what a joke... this will make sure employee's sign the boss's crap agreements in a hurry otherwise you end up on minium wage..
We can become like the US style $6 minimum wage for an adult...
So what’s wrong with the system where is it broke, what isn't working?
The big and organized work places can hold there own, it’s the little places with the not so nice Boss, there the ones that will cop it hard....

[pauljh74]

If employing casuals is so costly, why are so many employers doing it?
AWAs leave a great big opportunity for employers to undercut awards as things like penalty rates are up "for negotiation". There are 2 levels now - there's the award, then below it the AWA. If you are in a skills shortage industry and can do well with an AWA - good for you. But for most of us, this means the employer can tell the prospective employee - "I'm going to pay you 10 cents above the minimum hourly rate to compensate your penalty rates, but you'll be expected to work nights and weekends with no penalty rates". Because this agreement satisfies the minimum standards, which are lower than the award. The base rate of pay is satisfied, and not much else. At the very least a logical and fair transition would be to have a no disadvanatage test against the award. Penalty rates could be traded, but as long as the increase in the base rate increased to cover it. Choosing the award for new employees should also be an option - considering this is supposedly the "safety net", shouldn't this be the minimum?

The working majority can see that cost focused employers will offer employees in whole sections of a company agreements like the above hypothetical situation whether you're a good worker or not. Your "work choices" will be take the cut in pay or get another job. There may be more jobs overall, but the majority of lower paid workers face losing current benefits to pay for them. Wages costs overall will likely drop as all these savings won't be spent on new jobs - all the while the big corporations pocket the savings and get richer. This is so we can be "more competitive" supposedly. An example in the paper the other day was a Chinese labourer (in China of course, not here) being paid the equivalent of $9 per week - we cannot compete with that and should not be expected to.

Even if you are a good worker and in one year you increase your productivity 10%, do you think your employer would offer you a 10% payrise? No, maybe 5% if you are lucky. They'll take your extra hard work and offer you a token increase to keep you happy.

Also, I'm not a bludger who's skating on thin ice in my job - I've worked for the same company for 11 years (since I was 20) as a casual working 5 days a week no less and recently secured a second part time job. I'm now working 55 hours a week and both employers are happy with my work. I'm now earning about the same as the average full time weekly earnings. I know that many larger companies especially will take every opportunity under the law to pay you as little as possible. An EBA my first employer offered a few years ago actually failed the no disadvantage test. Every agreement is only a tiny amount above the award with a couple of conditions abolished or reduced. They always drag their feet with negotiating and implementing new agreements. Our last one expired at the end of June, and our new one was a straightforward one for once - and it still hasn't been implemented despite agreement a month ago.

[XAGSV8]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

Its easy to dismiss someone if the Boss has followed the correct procedures, what the Boss is worried about is it costs nothing for the worker to take him for a unfair dismissal... if he hasn't followed the correct procedures he losses... if he has followed the correct way of dismissal he wins is this not fair.

Very true but in my situation take for example the girl who was not turning up to work a couple of day's a week. The correct procedure with our business and EBA is an abandonment notice has to be sent out when the person does not turn up for work. If the person does not contact work another is sent out and again and if no contact is made (eg: phone call) then the third is sent out saying the employment has been terminated. Now the problem with this example is all the employee has to do is make one phone call and bam the process has to start all over again with sending the first letter out. If the employee is smart enough they can just keep doing this because as I said the procedure say's you have to start again which is one big vicious circle. There is no way out of this and it causes resentment amoung the people who have to do this persons work as well as their own. They also see and agree with how stupid some of these procedures are and how much of a waste of time it is for everybody. I have always followed procedure and that is why this is so hard. Also if the person was to go to unfair dismissal I always back myself up with date's, times, counselling sessions and when unions have been involved.

[Charliewool]

I too am an employer. (Only of 15 though) I cannot see any of these changes affecting our guy's conditions or rates in any way whatsoever!
The one change that will possibly help us personally, is the unfair dismissal law for businesses employing less then 100. Up until now it's been virtually impossible to "get rid" of someone you had employed on a full time basis. (BTW, this has never happened in our case, as our guys are pretty well "vetted" before & during their 3 months probation.)
But I have heard of other small business that in the past have refused to employ full timers because of this.
The people I REALLY see this affecting most, is the 16 or 17yr old starting at Safeway, Hungry Jacks, or any miriad of small retail shops (Examples only). These kids DO need some "protection" of not only the basic rate, but meal breaks, hours of work, penalties etc... OR we'll end up with 3rd world "sweatshop" workplaces!

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by GSWXA

No offense but have you ever run a business? Hiring somebody as casual and giving them full time hours will result in REM (wages) being blown out of the water. Aussie workers get it good and they will still get it good with the new system. With the current system my personal belief is it is holding company's back from expanding dramatically. If company's have this oportunity to expand it will only mean more jobs for everybody. There will still be EBA agreements with the new system and what all the negative campaining is about at the moment is really the unions getting worried about losing a tiny bit of their stranglehold on the workplace. People Australia should be given the oportunity to compete with the rest of the world and a system that's been around since the early 1900's is not going to do that.

Bit of topic but anybody here who has tried to dismiss somebody before would realise how impossible it is. I had one girl who would not turn up to work a couple of day's every week, she was in her probationary period and basically it was still imposible to get rid of her. Another one is a person in the business who stole some property from the business, that person still works for the company.

On another note Australia has a major skills shortage at the moment so if you are a decent person getting a job is not as hard as you may think. I am so desperate to find people at the moment I had to stick signs all over my workplace just to say come in and apply for a job if you want one. Personally I have come to the conclusion that the most of the 4.9% of the population that are unemployed are not employable.

I agree, you can only get so much blood out of a stone, i know of a plastering company that sacked 18 of 19 apprentices when Bracks changed them from state to federal award this year, i can see why, instantly cost me $120 a week extra for an apprentice that has 3 months away from work a year for school and holidays, makes it hard for a small business.

[deesun]

Originally Posted by bindi

When/where/time?!

Tuesday 15th all over the country go to WWW.yourightsatwork.com.au for all the meeting places. RSL + bowling + sports clubs.Bindi up your way is Katoomba RSL Lithgow,Penrith,Richmond,Springwood, all over the place. There is a nationwide Skychanel hookup starts at 830.

[SpoolMan]

He cant just ring in and make contact without having a Doctors Certificate or the relevant documents to support why he didn't attend work...
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On different note reading above about work place agreements, why will it be law that you cant discuss with your fellow employees what your AWA is worth....should it not be the workers choice if they wish discuss there conditions with everyone..
its to cut wages...

[pauljh74]

I guess I am dead against it because I worked for a company that took every opportunity they could to undermine their employees and pay them less. I know they will be rubbing their greedy hands together at this legislation. That in a nutshell is what worries me about it.

This is exactly what the working majority are worried about. Some are already getting screwed under the current system with bosses underpaying them and threatening them with the sack if they complain. The new laws make it even easier for this sort of abuse.

Sure there will be people who are worse off but name a new act that nobody is disadvantaged by.

So if some (and it will be more than you think) are disadvantaged - especially the more vulnerable, then shouldn't this legislation be revised/scrapped?

Basically now workers stand to be bent over and screwed like before, but now you don't have the option of vaseline to make it less painful

[XAGSV8]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

He cant just ring in and make contact without having a Doctors Certificate or the relevant documents to support why he didn't attend work...

Unfortunatly they can, they just have to make contact because then they technically are not ambandoning work. The person that did it used to be a manager in a similar company and knew what they could get away with.

[Charliewool]

ALSO... I honestly believe 99% of employers (small business) won't change a thing!
We are NOT all ogres! We appreciate that without the loyal employee, without harmony, and without fair & just rates and conditions your business will fail!!
Personally, I reckon I'm the softest touch when it comes to my staff! There is always a cold beer in the fridge..We have a monthly barbie (scotch fillet too! lol) to have a bit of a chat on how everything is going, any ideas for improvement, gripes etc.
In general, it's a matter of me putting myself in their shoes & seeing things from their perspective!.. They have families, mortgages, cars to mod, dreams to fulfill, the same as me. My biggest "enemy" ain't my workers.. it's the frigging government PLUS the never ending taxation sting!

[deesun]

Originally Posted by charliewool

The people I REALLY see this affecting most, is the 16 or 17yr old starting at Safeway, Hungry Jacks, or any miriad of small retail shops (Examples only). These kids DO need some "protection" of not only the basic rate, but meal breaks, hours of work, penalties etc... OR we'll end up with 3rd world "sweatshop" workplaces!

I think that no matter where a 15 yr old starts work he/she will be at a disadvantage with these laws. How does a 15 yr old negotiate a wage with a boss/manager. Years and years of union negotiation GONE. There are plenty of companies out there that prenegotiate agreements with employers so that there are fair wages and conditions and both employer and employee know where they stand for the next 3-4 years. The TV adds say "your CURRENT conditions are protected" but if I leave and go to another job they aren"t. I also know that in plenty of instances its the smaller companies not the larger ones that young kids need protection from. These days the agreements worked out by the unions within the larger companies Coles/Woolies etc protect the younger worker and have plans in place for dispute resolution but if there is only a 15yr old and his boss then where is the dispute resolution there?

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by GSWXA

Unfortunatly they can, they just have to make contact because then they technically are not ambandoning work. The person that did it used to be a manager in a similar company and knew what they could get away with.

I will leave this one as my last word, as I have had my say and had enough posts..
I am looking after these situations very often at my work place and I couldn’t keep someone there job on what you have outlined...
The people in the work place wouldn’t support a worker like this.
Or is the problem that the Employer doesn’t want to chance it at the unfair dismissals independent tribunal.

[deesun]

Originally Posted by charliewool

ALSO... I honestly believe 99% of employers (small business) won't change a thing!
We are NOT all ogres! We appreciate that without the loyal employee, without harmony, and without fair & just rates and conditions your business will fail!!
Personally, I reckon I'm the softest touch when it comes to my staff! There is always a cold beer in the fridge..We have a monthly barbie (scotch fillet too! lol) to have a bit of a chat on how everything is going, any ideas for improvement, gripes etc.
In general, it's a matter of me putting myself in their shoes & seeing things from their perspective!.. They have families, mortgages, cars to mod, dreams to fulfill, the same as me. My biggest "enemy" ain't my workers.. it's the frigging government PLUS the never ending taxation sting!

For every fair and honourable employer like you there are 10 ogres. But there are plenty of employees out there trying to screw the boss too.

[XAGSV8]

Originally Posted by charliewool

ALSO... I honestly believe 99% of employers (small business) won't change a thing!
We are NOT all ogres! We appreciate that without the loyal employee, without harmony, and without fair & just rates and conditions your business will fail!!
Personally, I reckon I'm the softest touch when it comes to my staff! There is always a cold beer in the fridge..We have a monthly barbie (scotch fillet too! lol) to have a bit of a chat on how everything is going, any ideas for improvement, gripes etc.
In general, it's a matter of me putting myself in their shoes & seeing things from their perspective!.. They have families, mortgages, cars to mod, dreams to fulfill, the same as me. My biggest "enemy" ain't my workers.. it's the frigging government PLUS the never ending taxation sting!

I work for a very large business and everything you mention there we do as well. Most of the people at the business I work for have so much passion for it that most have put university on hold or quite just to pursue a career in the business. Unfortunatly I have encounted two bad apples (the only two I have ever had) in the last year who just don't fit our values and behavours. Unfair dismissal will still apply where I work.

[bindi]

Originally Posted by deesun

Tuesday 15th all over the country go to WWW.yourightsatwork.com.au for all the meeting places. RSL + bowling + sports clubs.Bindi up your way is Katoomba RSL Lithgow,Penrith,Richmond,Springwood, all over the place. There is a nationwide Skychanel hookup starts at 830.

Ta mate! I was wondering why the kids aren't going to school Tuesday morning, I should read school notes more carefully hey

Anyone local on here feel like joining me at the Gearins? I just checked on the website...

[XAGSV8]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

I will leave this one as my last word, as I have had my say and had enough posts..
I am looking after these situations very often at my work place and I couldn’t keep someone there job on what you have outlined...
The people in the work place wouldn’t support a worker like this.
Or is the problem that the Employer doesn’t want to chance it at the unfair dismissals independent tribunal.

I agree 110%, I would have loved to just give the flick but this is just the way the business I work for does things. Different company's have different procedures. In a large business the general public will alway's support the so called battler without the full story so it's about protecting reputations as well.

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

The people in the work place wouldn’t support a worker like this.

Thats why this person eventually left, they were too ashamed to even come back to work. There was no bullying or anything like that from fellow co-workers but this person knew people were not happy with them.

[Black XR6]

Take for instance the building industry. Your employer is working for a big builder that builds thousands of homes a year. The builder is renowned for driving down the prices their contractors charge so far, that you hardly make anything from a house.

You employ 10 workers to handle the hands on workoad. The builders are not going to pay more, in fact they have a nack for paying less and less. Where does the money lost from these contracts get recovered from? From the worker for the company in the form of bugger all pay rises, and with the new legislation, they will be screwed even more, so the company can save some cash.

The above scenario is not fiction. It is fact and ive seen it done first hand. Where is the protection for the workers.

And to those who say it is hard to sack a worker. If a worker is not attending work without a doctors cert. Give them a warning. Three warnings and they are gone. As long as you have followed the rules you should be fine.

People say bring in the legislation, sure only some shall be affected negatively. But thats just pure seculation. You dont know exactly how many will be affected. Why not leave it the way it is, only some companies will be affected negatively! Why is it the worker who has to end up wearing the brunt of things.

[CruizinEB]

all i can say is that Australia is going down fast :(