Holden's LPG range released including Caprice, SV6 and Sportwagon

[BigAL_250]

I would say because that would cut into the market for the EcoBoost Falcon.

[BigAL_250]

Originally Posted by jpd80

6-speed auto Vs 4-speed uuuggghhhhh thing.

Hang on a sec, the old e-gas ran the ION 4-speed, the LPi runs a 6-speed (ZF 6HP26 or 6R80?) doesn't it?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BigAL_250

Hang on a sec, the old e-gas ran the ION 4-speed, the LPi runs a 6-speed (ZF 6HP26 or 6R80?) doesn't it?

Ford and Holden both switched from 4-speed to 6-speed autos and updated their gas delivery systems.
Believe it or not but the better transmissions play a big part in LPG's improved fuel economy.

E-Gas was a continuous flow single point vapor system that did not meet Euro 4
Holden uses a sequential multi point vapor system that already complied to Euro 4 and now Euro 6

[prydey]

Originally Posted by BigAL_250

How did they manage to get a lower fuel consumption from an older less efficient system? Is it just because it's missing a chunk of power?

Or perhaps Ford just hasn't found the best economic tune yet, it is a fairly new technology, and they would be doing continual testing to get it's numbers down.

edit: Or are they just lying about the commy's economy again?

i would wait until you get some real world figures before jumping to too many conclusions. many tests over the years have shown that ford will easily match their claimed consumption, while the general's claimed consumtion is generally rather optimistic.

also, i wonder if the people that are saying the commodore's power and torque are ample for most people (i do agree) are the same people that bag the ecoboost 4cyl, which produces 1kw less and more torque.

jpd - bigal was asking how commodore managed to get better figures from their inferior system, and you replied "6sp v 4sp". both ecoLPi and commodore run 6sp's.

my guess is, since ecoLPi was already in the market place, the holden techs had a figure to aim at and beat.

[jpd80]

I was referring to the jump Holden made, they still used their sequential multi-point vapor injection,
the only thing that changed was 4-speed auto to 6-speed auto and a slight change in calibration..

Vapor gives good economy numbers but nowhere near the power and torque, that's the difference.
Ford could have done a 3.2 litre I-6 in EcoLPI and still exceeded Holden's figures

If Ford had only wanted a vapor injection system, E-gas could have morphed years ago but Ford wanted a superior system.

[Bossxr8]

Even Holdens CEO praised the Falcon's EcoLPi and called it a "fantastic system".

The Commodores LPG is fail from a power, torque, significant cost and driveability standpoint. It has nothing on LPi except slightly better economy, at the cost of being a hell of a lot slower to 100. I'd expect LPi's economy figures to be better in the real world than Commodores LPG too, it would need a lot less throttle to get it moving with so much torque.

[PoweredByCNG]

IMO, GM should have opted to use the variable intake/exhaust valve timing version of the LY7 engine for the LPG Commodore. This would allow engineers to match Ford's LPi engine in at least in terms of power. But that would mean a significant fuel consumption penalty so there goes GM's claimed fuel economy advantage right there...

[TMC]

"dieselesque torque". LOL 320Nm should never be called dieselesque unless it's a 2L diesel you're comparing it with.

I actually think the actual real world economy of a Holden LPG will not be that good. To get it moving, you have to kick it in the guts more, get it to use the lower gears more than the Ford. The Ford will just idle away with the LPi giving better response and instantaneous fuel corrections which the vapour system will not be as good at.

Towing economy would be much better with the Falcon as the motor can hang around in it's sweet economy spot easier. The Holden will need to be switching down gears on every hill.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by TMC

"dieselesque torque". LOL 320Nm should never be called dieselesque unless it's a 2L diesel you're comparing it with.

I actually think the actual real world economy of a Holden LPG will not be that good. To get it moving, you have to kick it in the guts more, get it to use the lower gears more than the Ford. The Ford will just idle away with the LPi giving better response and instantaneous fuel corrections which the vapour system will not be as good at.

Towing economy would be much better with the Falcon as the motor can hang around in it's sweet economy spot easier. The Holden will need to be switching down gears on every hill.

EXACTLY bring on the eco bathurst test then...aga in

[Buntz]

As much as I hate GM. And as little as I think of Holden's V6's. And as laughable as I find their 'latest' LPG offering... (Hell it's less power than Falcon's coming 4cyl turbo.)

I must commend Holden on eliminating the boost space tax. Sure to us petrol heads... or gas heads now... Falcon is superior, and we laud it's superiority. But show Mr and Mrs Everydayperson the boot opened up on an example from each... optioned with a full size spare, only to see one that has a big lump where you expect to put things... and one that has a big lump under where you expect to put things. Well, then it comes down to priorities. Falcon's showing cost, consumption and power. Commodore is showing no compromise cargo capability... And a Wagon!

So well done red team. I look forward to our return serve to your soft, dangly, fleshy parts.

[Buntz]

Should remember to read threads fully before posting.

With no real advantage at all. Go ahead and nail 'em Ford. If they dare to advertise their LPG (they will)... counter punch with your's. (they won't)

[prydey]

Real world economy will be interesting

3.6 LPG: 180kw at 6000rpm and 320Nm at 2000rpm.

ecoLPi: 198kw @ 5000rpm and 409Nm @ 3250.

as always, holdens peak power is very high in the rev range. also having not seen a graph, there's a good chance fords ecoLPi will have a similar amount of torque at 2000 rpm. ecoLPi is also rumoured to be closer to 210kw as well.

whilst power and torque may not mean much to the average punter, the more you have, the less throttle % you need to go the same distance.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

whilst power and torque may not mean much to the average punter, the more you have, the less throttle % you need to go the same distance.

LOL, Falcon's throttle is controlled electronically and the throttle opening rate was increased on FG to make it feel more powerful off the mark.

Those peak power/torque figures are only important at wide open throttle, something most cars don't do regularly
so the fight comes down to how the cars "feel' on the road, the price asked and the appeal to buyers.

As Ford has shown in the past, you can have superior technology up to the hilt ans still not attract buyers.
Remember this is fleet sales we're talking about, not private buyers so managers will look at price and economy.
Has Ford over cooked it by taking way too long delivering a superior system that the market didn't really ask for?

Interesting times ahead...

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

But show Mr and Mrs Everydayperson the boot opened up on an example from each... optioned with a full size spare, only to see one that has a big lump where you expect to put things... and one that has a big lump under where you expect to put things.

You might want to look at this part again. The boot setup in exactly the same in both cars. There is no advantage for either car here.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

You might want to look at this part again. The boot setup in exactly the same in both cars. There is no advantage for either car here.

he did correct himself in the next post

[blk6t]

I bet Holden will market their new LPG engine alot better than Ford, would be keen to see who sells more....the more advanced Falcon system, with little to no marketing or the more basic Commodore system, with what I expect will be seen all over the place with a proper marketing campaign....

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Even Holdens CEO praised the Falcon's EcoLPi and called it a "fantastic system".

The Commodores LPG is fail from a power, torque, significant cost and driveability standpoint. It has nothing on LPi except slightly better economy, at the cost of being a hell of a lot slower to 100. I'd expect LPi's economy figures to be better in the real world than Commodores LPG too, it would need a lot less throttle to get it moving with so much torque.

I agree with you and strongly doubt that the VE2 will actually have the same level of improvement to it's economy in the real world. The primary change is the adoption of a 6spd auto. It has still kept the gaseous injection system.

In the other thread (Falcon EcoLPi etc) Brazen mentions that he is getting 9.1L/100km in his EcoLPi FG Ute. Awesome economy!

There was also a mention in that same thread of inner city couriers with heavy loads who went from the E-Gas Falcons to the EcoLPi Falcons and their economy went from 22L/100km to 15L/100km.

It's only early days, but the word is getting about how good the economy is on the LPi. Shows that the tech advantage employed by Ford is delivering in the real world.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by prydey

as always, holdens peak power is very high in the rev range. also having not seen a graph, there's a good chance fords ecoLPi will have a similar amount of torque at 2000 rpm. ecoLPi is also rumoured to be closer to 210kw as well.

EcoLPi has exactly 365Nm @ 2000rpm. Heck, it already develops more torque at 1000rpm than the Holden LPG engine at its torque peak!

[madmelon]

Can we get that Torque graph up in this thread please? It seems to have disappeared from the other thread...
I wanted to reference it with an argument I'm having with a guy over on carpoint but it's just a cross on the page now.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Can we get that Torque graph up in this thread please? It seems to have disappeared from the other thread...
I wanted to reference it with an argument I'm having with a guy over on carpoint but it's just a cross on the page now.

[madmelon]

Brilliant, thanks!

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

EcoLPi has exactly 365Nm @ 2000rpm. Heck, it already develops more torque at 1000rpm than the Holden LPG engine at its torque peak!

That says it all...

[Joe5619]

Media at it again

Holden with 4 stars & Ford with 3.5 stars.. Also, why is the boot not a negative on the Holden when it is the same setup as the Ford one??

Holden

http://www.caradvice.com.au/159889/h...modore-review/

Ford (from July last year)
http://www.caradvice.com.au/129513/f...pi-lpg-review/

[prydey]

its frustrating to read, but blind freddy could see it coming.