5 young men killed in high speed crash. - Page 4

4Vman · 17-01-2010, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just_pazz

Well without speculating too much as it's kinda disrespectful I guess, and going off what I know about that road.

In the pic that one of the members provided showing the skid marks across the lane and onto the grass the road surface changes just before what you can see of the road, this is at the childs/plenty road intersection.. I can only guess that the car has reacted to the change in surface and the bump, being fully loaded... perhaps come of line and had a wheel/s touch the gravel.

He's either panicked and slammed the anchors therefore going into an uncontrollable slide or over corrected, too much gas and virtually slingshotted of the road, although I wouldn't think an NA 6 would have that sorta capability power wise.

or a car pulled out of an intersection without expecting someone approaching at 160kph, or someone in the car was distracting the driver and he over reacted or he blew a tyre or he was weaving through traffic or a million other things....
At those speeds with an extra 400+kg's of weight in the car in a built up area it was doomed for failure...

Brute 33 · 17-01-2010, 04:30 PM

As a parent of two teenage boys that drive performance vehicles I have always been on their case from a young age to always drive within your ability,so much so that at the age of 7 they took up go kart racing on tar and have progressed to racing on dirt (speedway) with numerous trophies and titles ,they have had alot of experience on race tracks but out on the road it is totally different ,for a start there are vehicles coming towards you and plenty of different types of driving styles and makes of cars.I have taught them both and with no professional driving intructors they have both passed their P,s 1st go.I have always said that a drivers license is a privalage not a right and to always be mindful of their surrounds,like always looking ahead 10 car lengths and 1 either side and 3 to 4 behind ,and also to be patient on the road ,and with cars that they drive people know them that know me and on a few occassions i have been called to say that they have done a few little indescretions (we all have from time to time).
One of the best things I did when they 1st got their P,s was to take out their radio and Ipod so all they were concentrating on was the road as I was no longer in the passenger seat,this worked real well ,so much that other parents have done the same for their kids.
Awarness is the key and being a parent that wants to know who they are driving with or what they are driving should be looked at more closely.
I asked a driving instructor years ago had he ever been for a drive in the vehicle of his student they were going to drive after they got their licence as the instructors cars are probably not more than 3 years old and that the average age of the vehicle that the student was going to drive was 10 to 15 years old
So he took me up on my challenge and was horrified at how different the student was in their own vehicle ,he now does this as a regular thing ,and is always surprised at the difference .
I,m not saying that my boys are excellent drivers but,they are with their race expeirence a little more prepared for a situation should it arise and it,s a tragedy that this has happened but it,s law of averages more people ,more cars ,more idiots.Thanks for reading my opinion

Bobman · 17-01-2010, 04:31 PM

Add to just_pazz's post, that part of Plenty Road is dark at night and you have to be on the ball even at the 80 km/h speed limit. There is gravel on both shoulders heading north, with gravel being closest to the right hand lane from where you can see the skid marks starting.

POELWYK · 17-01-2010, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave93761

As a start, all young people should be made to watch this video:

In fact, I say to all of you, please watch this video today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2mf8DtWWd8

They should be made to watch it when they go for their L's, when they get their P's, and it should be a regular on TV for me - at the end of the dad, it's the shock value that makes these things so effective. If it only saves one person for being killed, isn't that still worth it??

funny unuf thay make us watch them tac adds at school now have cops come to the school and show us what happens but this still happens what a wast of life and a Nice car

vztrt · 17-01-2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobman

Add to just_pazz's post, that part of Plenty Road is dark at night and you have to be on the ball even at the 80 km/h speed limit. There is gravel on both shoulders heading north, with gravel being closest to the right hand lane from where you can see the skid marks starting.

The thing is the lanes aren't that narrow there, So to get off the road you would have to concentrating on something different Ifs a BFXR6 not some clapped out old Falcon (that hasn't been taken care of) thats gonna be all over the road at those speeds. Funny enough earlier that night (bout the 9.30pm mark) there was a car that rolled over on Edgars rd in Thomastown. But I dont think anyone was hurt...well except for the Mazda that was on its roof.

4Vman · 17-01-2010, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POELWYK

funny unuf thay make us watch them tac adds at school now have cops come to the school and show us what happens but this still happens what a wast of life and a Nice car

Funny enough they made us watch those T.A.C ads at school, now they have Police come to school and show us what happens, but this still happens.
What a waste of life and a nice car.

There you go, i translated it to English for you.

geckoGT · 17-01-2010, 04:54 PM

Some absolute top posts here and I think that we are all pretty much reading from the same page. A few points though.

Sorry to say it to the P plater here, we all know not all P platers here drive like this, in fact most don't. The unfortunate truth is for as long as accidents like this happen, the rules are going to get worse. The only real answer for the P platers of the world today to prevent these rules from getting worse is to reverse the peer pressure from your own ranks, make dangerous driving really uncool and something that gets you excluded from the group. No easy task I know (I was young once, although 20 years ago), but it will be more effective than any laws or restrictions the government can mount.

My other major point is there seems to be a common sentiment here that the passengers were innocent and the driver is all bad. I do not accept this one bit and my appologies to any family of victims should they be reading this. In my experience, at the scene of serious accidents involving high speed, P plate drivers and young passengers, the passengers are not innocent parties a lot of the time.

First off, they knowingly got into a overloaded car without enough safety restraints with a 17 year old driver, they had other options. They also in all reality were probably egging the driver on to some degree, I feel sure they were not telling him to slow down, more like "go faster you wuss". I also don't doubt that some idiot in the car may have messed with some form of vehicle control device, yanked the wheel, ripped on the hand brake etc. Maybe the driver was put into the slide by some other moron in the car, we do not know, we were not in the car.

I have been to a large number of these prangs (normally a lot less severe thankfully), where once you get the passenger on their own and explain to them that you do not really believe it is all the drivers fault, they are to blame as well and why, they come clean about their participation. It is amazing how many try to lump all the blame on the driver until you tell them they are full of BS, then they come clean.

It might be a pointless exercise but I often lecture them on how stupid they ar to be involved and lucky they are to have survived, probably wasting my breath but if I save one life in the future the effort is worth it. It normally helps that I can describe to them cars that I have pulled dead bodies out of, draw comparisons to their car and described the injuries of the occupants. That normally wipes the smile of their face, some it doesn't and I guess some other paramedic will see them professionally later.

POELWYK · 17-01-2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Funny enough they made us watch those T.A.C ads at school, now they have Police come to school and show us what happens, but this still happens.
What a waste of life and a nice car.

There you go, i translated it to English for you.

thanks mate i sould relay double check what i post before posting

xr6turbo2005 · 17-01-2010, 05:01 PM

not sure i've seen a post attract so many comments in just one day. there is certainly a general consenses that reducing speed limits does nothing to stop these sort of thing happening. All that's going to acheive is frustration for drivers who do respect the road rules and more revenues from more fines. Its a bit like increasing the drinking age to 21, its not going to stop people doing it.

only thing that is going to help reduce this sort of thing happening is a big change in people's attitudes through education. people must understand the basic principles of being responsible for your actions and respect for others and that there are consequences to what we do.

Im sure we have all done some silly things in our days and got away with it. In this case, unfortunately they didn't and those that lost their lives, as tragic as it is, now have no more heartache. I feel for those they have left behind - parents, siblings, friends etc. How is the girl that survived going to feel now, what problems will she have in the future both mentally and physically.

it is a very sad loss of young lives, as it all such accidents.

4Vman · 17-01-2010, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Some absolute top posts here and I think that we are all pretty much reading from the same page. A few points though.

Sorry to say it to the P plater here, we all know not all P platers here drive like this, in fact most don't. The unfortunate truth is for as long as accidents like this happen, the rules are going to get worse. The only real answer for the P platers of the world today to prevent these rules from getting worse is to reverse the peer pressure from your own ranks, make dangerous driving really uncool and something that gets you excluded from the group. No easy task I know (I was young once, although 20 years ago), but it will be more effective than any laws or restrictions the government can mount.

My other major point is there seems to be a common sentiment here that the passengers were innocent and the driver is all bad. I do not accept this one bit and my appologies to any family of victims should they be reading this. In my experience, at the scene of serious accidents involving high speed, P plate drivers and young passengers, the passengers are not innocent parties a lot of the time.

First off, they knowingly got into a overloaded car without enough safety restraints with a 17 year old driver, they had other options. They also in all reality were probably egging the driver on to some degree, I feel sure they were not telling him to slow down, more like "go faster you wuss". I also don't doubt that some idiot in the car may have messed with some form of vehicle control device, yanked the wheel, ripped on the hand brake etc. Maybe the driver was put into the slide by some other moron in the car, we do not know, we were not in the car.

I have been to a large number of these prangs (normally a lot less severe thankfully), where once you get the passenger on their own and explain to them that you do not really believe it is all the drivers fault, they are to blame as well and why, they come clean about their participation. It is amazing how many try to lump all the blame on the driver until you tell them they are full of BS, then they come clean.

It might be a pointless exercise but I often lecture them on how stupid they ar to be involved and lucky they are to have survived, probably wasting my breath but if I save one life in the future the effort is worth it. It normally helps that I can describe to them cars that I have pulled dead bodies out of, draw comparisons to their car and described the injuries of the occupants. That normally wipes the smile of their face, some it doesn't and I guess some other paramedic will see them professionally later.

Well said.

Something has to change.. i also agree that pressure from within social groups and from peers is the most effective measure.
Young people must start to make a stand amongst their ranks to say no, bad driving is not cool, and it wont be tollerated.
Sadly though there are groups of people who thrive on driving recklessly.

geckoGT · 17-01-2010, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobman

Absolute carnage.

That is some significant damage to say the least.

It does need to be pointed out though a lot of that damage is road accident rescue work freeing the survivor and removing the bodies. At the minimum that car has had the A,B and C pillars cut with removal of the roof and it also looks like it has had a 3rd door done. There may also be a dash roll to free entrapped legs from under the dash. That car would have looked a lot more intact than that at the start, although the occupant cell intrusion would have been massive.

Bud Bud · 17-01-2010, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

That is not 'speeding' that is INSANELY STUPID.

Correct, if you believe the rhetoric that Governments spin these days, 1 k/ph over the posted speed limit is speeding while some Governments choose to nab you after 3 k/ph over the posted limit. Maybe we need a new term to refer to anything above 15-20 K/ph over the posted limit to truly reflect the nature of this kind of lunacy as speeding and all it now refers to is now taken.

There was a time when "joy riding" was an acceptable term to refer to another despicable act. Thankfully this term has been changed to "illegal use and theft of a motor car". Maybe its time to overhaul the term speeding now too.

davocol · 17-01-2010, 05:15 PM

Some people no matter what they are shown, no matter what they are taught still refuse to comprehend information, from what it sounds like this individual had prior offences and was also driving an unregistered vehicle. Thank god no other innocent cars were taken out in this guys quest for heroism.

FPV+fteT3 · 17-01-2010, 05:18 PM

According to 10 news just, the car was unregistered and the driver should not have been carrying passengers the car should not have even been on the road but with the attitude of the driver to laws (previous traffic infringements) he was an accident looking for somewhere to happen.

they went on to say the vehicle was overtaking on the median beforehand witnessed by other drivers and they almost got hit. A woman who saw the accident from her car was distraught and thankfull they didn't get involved but she knew the occupants of the car had little chance.

Just makes you wonder about some people.

POELWYK · 17-01-2010, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

Correct, if you believe the rhetoric that Governments spin these days, 1 k/ph over the posted speed limit is speeding while some Governments choose to nab you after 3 k/ph over the posted limit. Maybe we need a new term to refer to anything above 15-20 K/ph over the posted limit to truly reflect the nature of this kind of lunacy as speeding and all it now refers to is now taken.

There was a time when "joy riding" was an acceptable term to refer to another despicable act. Thankfully this term has been changed to "illegal use and theft of a motor car". Maybe its time to overhaul the term speeding now too.

I Agree 100% with you

I'm a P plater I'm 19 and i know that driving like that is stupid unless its done on a race track Point being Do this sstuff in the right place at the right time not on the roads

RSgerry · 17-01-2010, 05:22 PM

Unfortunately yopung men have always done stupid things and will always do so. Most of here could admit to having performed some stupid stunts in our time, the difference is that we were lucky. However, this doesnt lessen this tragedy. Five familes have now been devastated by the actions of one act of stupidity. Very sad.

As has been said, there is not a speed camera in the world that would have prevented this. More visible policing might have done so. There needs to be facilities for young guys (and girls) to do these kind of things...racetracks, drag strips, drift pads etc. They need to be local and they need to be affordable. Tere will always be teh arguement 'why pay $x to drive fast when i can do it free on the roads', however, if it saves one life, then it was worth it.

**DJM83** · 17-01-2010, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Cool, thanks.

By the way, I clean up the mess, a Paramedic in QLD.

Id imagine some of the things you attend cannot be helped but im defiantly sure you could do without attending fatalities like this one. People like you are the real heroes in all this, you my friend deserve all the praise having to attend scenes such as the one pointed out in this thread my hat goes off to you.
Cheers Dallas

rodderz · 17-01-2010, 05:26 PM

Apparently they overtook an older couple through the Childs Rd intersection, and at the speed they were at put the right wheels onto the gravel shoulder and lost it from there.

Hopefully the govt put driver ed back into schools, I had it when I was there, why doesn't every other school have it?

FBT002 · 17-01-2010, 05:29 PM

some realy good replys here. There is one problem that I see with showing those graphic ads on TV, people very quickly de-sensitise and just switch off. There will always be people that do really dumb things on the road and kill themselves and others.

geckoGT · 17-01-2010, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodderz

Hopefully the govt put driver ed back into schools, I had it when I was there, why doesn't every other school have it?

Best question so far, maybe we should all start writing to our local member asking them to explain.

I hate to say it but the truth is education costs money, speed cameras make money, which way do you think they will always go?

Matt P · 17-01-2010, 05:37 PM

Appoligies.

xr6turbo2005 · 17-01-2010, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I hate to say it but the truth is education costs money, speed cameras make money, which way do you think they will always go?

use the money from the speed cameras on education and not prop up other areas of funding.

after all, where does all the money go. every government tell us that speed cameras are not about revenue raising.

4Vman · 17-01-2010, 05:48 PM

Please.. Lets not turn the thread into the speed camera/govt/revenue bashing debate....
The thread has been good so far.

ED Classic · 17-01-2010, 05:53 PM

I agree with RSgerry that most of us did things when young and were lucky but I reckon if I had a near 200kw car when I was 18 I may not have been so lucky. They are damn fast cars for an 18yo, they are not perceived as fast because a hot V8 puts out 300kw but they are fast and keep accelerating pretty fast at those speeds and in the wrong young persons hands the above can happen. Save for been a bit heavier its not that much difference to if P platers were driving around HSV 215's when they were new.

Sizey · 17-01-2010, 05:54 PM

Far out this thread is going insane for one day.

I think there needs to be more practical training for everyone. Not just a theoretical education such as watching videos. What about that compulsory driver training gig that all state governments were going to bring in as a uniformity........what ever happened to that?

Most schools do have some form of driver ed aswell!

Peter B - CV8 · 17-01-2010, 05:54 PM

Biggest idiot was the driver - as the person in "control" of the vehicle. Based on the news reports, the other occupants were all close to one another (and related in some cases). Surely they also knew the driver shouldn't have been behind the wheel & that 6 people into one car just doesn't fit.......
What a terrible waste of life & cause of grief for the remaining families.

POELWYK · 17-01-2010, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt P

Yet your avatar shows you pulling a skid as you make a right hand turn into another street.

huh that was taken at 100ks down the high way on the AUfalcon cruse last year

**Full Noise** · 17-01-2010, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

According to 10 news just, the car was unregistered and the driver should not have been carrying passengers the car should not have even been on the road but with the attitude of the driver to laws (previous traffic infringements) he was an accident looking for somewhere to happen.

they went on to say the vehicle was overtaking on the median beforehand witnessed by other drivers and they almost got hit. A woman who saw the accident from her car was distraught and thankfull they didn't get involved but she knew the occupants of the car had little chance.

Just makes you wonder about some people.

They also showed photographs of the young blokes involved. I’d say that they were taken from some "social networking" site. The usual drunken pics that some morons find amusing.

Charles Darwin would be proud.

Sizey · 17-01-2010, 06:12 PM

FULL NOISE - Although I kind of agree with you about that stature of driver, don't believe everything on the news....tends to be a touch embellished.

4Vman · 17-01-2010, 06:12 PM

A bit more info from the news report, the car clipped the concrete kerb and lost control as it went through the intersection weaving past another car, they believe it hit the tree at 140kph... makes you wonder how fast they must have been going as the skid would have washed speed off.

Also.. 2 separate P platers were booked doing 170 in an 80 zone on burwood hwy last night... 1 of them, who only just got his license laughed at police...