Holden secures $200m subsidy - Page 4

svo supporter · 23-03-2012, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stang65

Yeah and most of it is from you.

Geez, I didn't realise I'm on here bitching that my Ford has things falling off, or it's rusting out and I'm having my backside raped by a Ford dealership.

BTW, great to see by your username, you support your local car manufacturer.

FOMOCO 1 · 23-03-2012, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

But hang on a moment, the reason Ford and Holden are in the stew is because big car sales are falling,
you could hardly expect them to run off and use an international vehicle, build it here just to get low sales.

I think Holden and Ford need a slightly different tack here, both parents have FWD mid sized car but chances are
that both Holden and Ford are looking at a neat mid sized RWD that covers our market much better than Falcadore does.
I hope that is the case and that everyone can come out a winner with better priced vehicles with exceptional fuel economy..

Cortina VS Torana anyone!

Dr Smith · 23-03-2012, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

ford and holden were doing the same thing CKD's..

when was the first ford "pressed" at gelong?

Does this count:

1934 World’s first coupe utility, Model 40, designed and built by Ford Australia. The Coupe Ute was designed by Ford Geelong engineer Lewis Bandt and and Lewis’s own Model 40 ute is proudly displayed at the Ford Discovery Centre.

or this...
1937 Model 78 with first steel turret-top body on an Australian-built sedan.

**DJR-351** · 23-03-2012, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimka100

I don't understand what do people complain about here ???

Holden got 275Mil from the government because they are investing over 1Billion dollars !!!

Ford got some money from the government too, sure it was less ... but do you see Ford committing 1Billion dollars as well ??? or even 500mil ?

Its as simple as day and night. The government will contribute more funds to the manufacturers that are willing to invest a great portion of funds themselves ... with Ford not wanting to invest any serious amount of money into the Falcon R&D and simply to choosing to release minor upgrades that pale in comparison to the investment that Holden has committed here ... do not be surprised why the government is behaving the way it is, and do not be surprised why the media is calling it already dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 69Mach1

The money is there for the taking, companies have to show their investment plan for the future and then negotiate a deal with the govt. GM invests and the Govt co-invests. GM have obviously shown a good plan for future investment...so they get the money. If Ford did the same they would get the money as well.

If I had $1B to invest in Australia, I would certainly be lobbying the govt to support me. I'm going to employ, buy equipment, materials, support suppliers, etc, etc. It is easy to make a good argument for how this type of investment is good for the country. Its then all about how much co-investment you can negotiate.

The above says it all for me, I can't think of anything more to add............

Moby Vic · 23-03-2012, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueOvalPrint

Why isnt the headline "Commodore dead in 2016" instead of "Holden gets $200m"? If it was Ford, that's how Drive would have skewed the story...

My money is on the replacement being a locally built (fwd) Malibu...

I agree on both counts.

US cars are going to be getting smaller for a while. We have new fuel economy regulations coming in. The Malibu could very well be Chevy's largest car by 2016.

Keepleft · 23-03-2012, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Because the government has opened the door to Asians to come in and transfer price their way through our domestic car industry.
Imagine if we let China or Korea bring in it own workers to private mines and just cut the rest of us out.
Or how about import Asian workers on Asian wages to do your job for a fraction of the cost...

See Senate, ALP Member for QLD address this past week. Basically, we do much as you outline, to cater for China in its operations here. Including reduced corporate and individual 'penalties' payable. But this takes us offtrack to this theads topic. .

burnz · 23-03-2012, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Does this count:

1934 World’s first coupe utility, Model 40, designed and built by Ford Australia. The Coupe Ute was designed by Ford Geelong engineer Lewis Bandt and and Lewis’s own Model 40 ute is proudly displayed at the Ford Discovery Centre.

or this...
1937 Model 78 with first steel turret-top body on an Australian-built sedan.

no not really, some were stamped in adelaide then sent to gelong as flat pack..for assembly.
but it wasn't ford can't remember the name. a third party.

as i said they were doing the same as holden each other, holden were modding vauxhalls for the local market.

jpd80 · 23-03-2012, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

I agree on both counts.

US cars are going to be getting smaller for a while. We have new fuel economy regulations coming in. The Malibu could very well be Chevy's largest car by 2016.

I'll be interested to see the 2014 Impala being released at the NY Auto show (?)
I believe that will be the signal for GM buyers to rediscover a segment that fell into disrepair under Lutz

GMNA could have taken the initial Zeta based Impala for years before switching to the 2014 car,
its unique wheelbase between Commodore and Caprice would have made it a perfect fit for USA.

Nikked · 23-03-2012, 08:27 AM

Holden claim they will build two new models...

The Epsilon II platfrom underpins the Malibu, a car Holden has claimed will appear in australia....

And a larger version of it will underpin the Impala...

So, it looks like the Commodore will be a a Epsilon based car, built along side the Malibu.

jpd80 · 23-03-2012, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

Holden claim they will build two new models...

The Epsilon II platfrom underpins the Malibu, a car Holden has claimed will appear in australia....

And a larger version of it will underpin the Impala...

So, it looks like the Commodore will be a a Epsilon based car, built along side the Malibu.

And the Holden friendly press took a baseball bat to Ford by suggesting that Taurus would replace Falcon,
all the while hoping that a new lighter RWD Commodore would be developed off the new Alpha platform.
Now I understand why so much engineering work was transferred back to GMNA a few years back....

Kinda makes you wonder about the propaganda, I hear GM is busy at work designing its own "Ecoboost V6" engines..
The truth is is that both companies need to change their existing big cars as neither works that well in our market.

Reaper8 · 23-03-2012, 08:44 AM

$1bn investment from a ex bankrupt company, probably go bankrupt before2016 LOL

whynot · 23-03-2012, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

So around 8000 employees.
Holden pays tax.
Each of the 8000 employees pays up to $8000 tax Per year.
Employees alone are putting in $64 million per year into the country via tax.
Times 10 years is $640 million.
Plus the money they spend in town to businesses that then have to pay tax to the government.
If I was the government, I would want to give them $200 million to get a $1billion PLUS return aover 10 years. Sounds like a good investment?

The question should be if is a better investment option. Spend the $200M retraining the workers into mining related roles and make a few billion tax more. It is a political bailout.

aussie muscle · 23-03-2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

ford and holden were doing the same thing CKD's..

Holden were coach (body) builders before GM bought them out. imported engine and chassis and built the rest themselves.

Moby Vic · 23-03-2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'll be interested to see the 2014 Impala being released at the NY Auto show (?)
I believe that will be the signal for GM buyers to rediscover a segment that fell into disrepair under Lutz

I wouldn't blame Lutz for that. He's a real car guy. The Impala has been selling very well (it's cheap and popular with fleets). He was probably focusing on the vehicle classes where Chevy has been failing miserably.

Brazen · 23-03-2012, 09:44 AM

Considering Holden will be paying approx 140 million in Carbon Tax over the ten years, the government money isnt a lot.

Shonky. · 23-03-2012, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whynot

The question should be if is a better investment option. Spend the $200M retraining the workers into mining related roles and make a few billion tax more. It is a political bailout.

More people digging holes. Without economic assistance that is all we will end up doing. The positive externalities of having an automotive industry are huge.

Joe5619 · 23-03-2012, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whynot

The question should be if is a better investment option. Spend the $200M retraining the workers into mining related roles and make a few billion tax more. It is a political bailout.

Great plan.. NOT!!

A) What happens when there is nothing to mind anymore?
B) Are we going to move everyone to WA?

MAD · 23-03-2012, 10:48 AM

It makes you wonder, with all these new 'micro' sized cars on the market, if the makers had stopped making their small and mid cars bigger and bigger, they wouldn't need a micro. Or perhaps they could have just made a large car instead.

BlueOvalPrint · 23-03-2012, 01:15 PM

I don't think that anyone has pointed out that the announcement pretty much locks in the certainty that there will be no more sedan-based utes (either Ford or Holden) post 2016, just Thai made one tonners.

RIP the Aussie V8 ute! Lew Bandt would be turning in his grave...

Road_Warrior · 23-03-2012, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueOvalPrint

I don't think that anyone has pointed out that the announcement pretty much locks in the certainty that there will be no more sedan-based utes (either Ford or Holden) post 2016, just Thai made one tonners.

RIP the Aussie V8 ute! Lew Bandt would be turning in his grave...

Yep. In fact I think you'll find that when the VF and the FG update rocks around in 2014, the ute will be bye bye.

I will have to make sure I get one.

Brazen · 23-03-2012, 02:39 PM

When the Holden boss was asked if he can guarantee whether there will be any more job losses with the co-investment, he said if he could see 5 years into the future and work out how many small cars, mid-sized cars and pick-up trucks the Indians and Chinese were selling here then he could gurantee it.

So could the future local Holdens be Cruze, Malibu/Commodore and Colorado?

XWGT · 23-03-2012, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cúl-Báire

No not thousands of car companies, but certainly supporting businesses...

, but I'd be happy to bet sheep stations that Australia has one of the highest rates of funding per capita. .

]

You owe me some sheep stations.....

Per-Country Per-Capita government assistance to auto-industry:

Australia $17.80
Canada $96.39,
France $147.38,
Germany $90.37,
Sweden $334
UK $27
US $264.

XWGT · 23-03-2012, 03:07 PM

I also think HSV's business model is now looking somewhat shakey

Its relatively ok if the replacement is a RWD......but if its FWD they have a problem.

phillyc · 23-03-2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Yep. In fact I think you'll find that when the VF and the FG update rocks around in 2014, the ute will be bye bye.

I will have to make sure I get one.

Getting an FPV FG2 GS Ute with manual, in white with black stripes is my aim for this year.

1TUFFUTE · 23-03-2012, 04:01 PM

i just wanted to clarify for all the angry people and for my blocked thread on the same topic.....the reason every one is ****sssed/excited at all this is not because holden may loose more aussie jobs.....its the fact that every single move ford has made by downsizing and costcutting and choosing future models has been absolutely wrung to death by media and retarded keyboard fans.....despite it being in the best interests of ford staying in buisiness and making money still. Now this whole thing makes a mokery of holdens big spending....buying v8supercar teams and champ drivers...having the worst in class with ancient tech cars and trucks...and yet the media still jump on the holden fanboy wagon no matter how much money they ask for or how garbage the imported rebadge car is

and i could go on and on for ever on this issue...if you havnt noticed all the blatant cues the last few years...your blind

FPV GTHO · 23-03-2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

When the Holden boss was asked if he can guarantee whether there will be any more job losses with the co-investment, he said if he could see 5 years into the future and work out how many small cars, mid-sized cars and pick-up trucks the Indians and Chinese were selling here then he could gurantee it.

So could the future local Holdens be Cruze, Malibu/Commodore and Colorado?

Theyre already building Cruze and Commodore seperately. They would either need to figure out how to built the 2 cars together, or get a 3rd line for Colorado.

outback_ute · 23-03-2012, 04:28 PM

Burnz unless I'm wrong weren't Ford stamping cars out (not just CKD) once the Geelong factory was fully online say around 1930?

Cúl-Báire - not sure construction is a really valid comparison, its a bit harder to import a house than a car. Food production is of concern to me with factories being closed & more food imports. The least the govt could do there is ban the term "made from local and imported ingredients" or at least make them say 99% imported if that is correct! Light manufacturing - same as the car industry really, I would like to see the govt support that too but it doesn't get the same focus as we are typically dealing with smaller companies so there is less political mileage in it.

Finally something I haven't read anything on, is if there won't be a direct replacement for the Commodore (ie something engineered here), I wonder what Holden will spend $1.3b on?

burnz · 23-03-2012, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Ford announces a successful first year in Australia with the sale of 400 Model T Fords. Cars are imported in packing crates and assembled by the dealers appointed by Ford in all states. Ford will over time employ thousands of workers in Australia.

http://www.menziesvirtualmuseum.org.au/1910s/1910.html

there was an adelaide company who made them local for ford,
cant remember the name...dampier, diper, dileger...
frustrating cause on the tip of tounge. duncan bodys

i just reread what you asked 1930's..

dylancox · 23-03-2012, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

Holden claim they will build two new models...

The Epsilon II platfrom underpins the Malibu, a car Holden has claimed will appear in australia....

And a larger version of it will underpin the Impala...

So, it looks like the Commodore will be a a Epsilon based car, built along side the Malibu.

Epsilon sounds like something Daewoo or Hyundai would name one of their cars. FWD Platform?

outback_ute · 23-03-2012, 05:31 PM

Prior to the establishment of Ford Australia in 1925, Ford chassis were imported & bodied locally by individual state distributors. I'll see if I can find more info on what cranked up at Geelong & when, plus no doubt some of our Geelong-based friends with connections to the plant will know a lot more than me!