Hsv 2013

[bouka]

Originally Posted by excopau

it won't have an 4 to start

One model will.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

If they put much more power through the FG drive train its probably a race with the Holden guy to the service department for warranty repairs.

Why? We all know the Miami is putting out more than 335kw at the crank.

[Angeldust]

bagging out the HSV over the FPV and vice-versa is like saying the Mustang is **** because the corvette is a pure sports car etc. etc. etc. or that a ferrari is **** because a porsche does it with a smaller engine with less cylinders etc etc etc or that a bentley is **** because a Hyundai Getz also gets you from A to B etc etc etc......................

IT IS WHAT IT IS.. Don't like it? buy an FPV then. Voice your opinion

if most of the people whining on here actually driven/owned a car with ~180Kw/tonne or more, you wouldn't be partaking in this conversation. (you would realise that addinhg more power from this point just shows up the inheritent problems with the chassis, originally designed as family cars, not supercars)

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

If they put much more power through the FG drive train its probably a race with the Holden guy to the service department for warranty repairs.

Most illogical statement and am more than over hearing rubbish like this with no substance. As said, these have been very successfully tuned with KPM (WARRANTIED) and Harrods doing a roaring business doing it. Comments like this do not belong in these threads (OFF TOPIC) or these forums for that matter without some facts to back it up ...... and I don't mean "My brothers best mate's dad ..... " type stories. Lets hear how your GT335 is handling things on a daily basis???? What are these particular problems are you having? I don't seem to be having any in mine?

Want a 4 at the start of a KW figure? AND doing duties day in day out ......

[F6E]

Originally Posted by Angeldust;

(you would realise that addinhg more power from this point just shows up the inheritent problems with the chassis, originally designed as family cars, not supercars)

Boom!

and therein lies the Achilles heel of the Falcadore ; it has a inherrent RWKW 'tipping point' ....too much power = slow

As demonstrated by many on here with mega RWKW and comparatively unimpressive 1/4's, MPH.

KW's are easy and cheap, great chassis dynamics for 1800kg cars aren't.

[Angeldust]

[QUOTE=Auslandau;4608894]......

Want a 4 at the start of a KW figure? AND doing duties day in day out ......

[QUOTE]



The VE chassis was originally engeneered to be able to cope with 400kw.
The older vt-vz was only a '300'kw chasis, and with an ls2 you can definetly feel the limits of it, not so much with an ls1 though. Sorry slightly off topic..

[Angeldust]

Originally Posted by F6E

Boom!

and therein lies the Achilles heel of the Falcadore ; it has a inherrent RWKW 'tipping point' ....too much power = slow

As demonstrated by many on here with mega RWKW and comparatively unimpressive 1/4's, MPH.

KW's are easy and cheap, great chassis dynamics for 1800kg cars aren't.

Thank you. Thats it, i can feel this tipping point in my VZ with an ls2, but when i had a vy with an ls1 i could not really 'conceptualise' (??spelling?) that concept lol..

The limit for these cars is 400kw (VE/VF and FG falc?). Sure they can handle more if modified in a straight line, but they have to go around corners as well, and all the extra power just makes things worse at this point, the tipping point..

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Angeldust

Thank you. Thats it, i can feel this tipping point in my VZ with an ls2, but when i had a vy with an ls1 i could not really 'conceptualise' (??spelling?) that concept lol..

The limit for these cars is 400kw (VE/VF and FG falc?). Sure they can handle more if modified in a straight line, but they have to go around corners as well, and all the extra power just makes things worse at this point, the tipping point..

Power has nothing to do with going around a corner. Suspension, weight and rubber determine how fast you can change direction. Adding power does not change this fact.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by irish2

Power has nothing to do with going around a corner. Suspension, weight and rubber determine how fast you can change direction. Adding power does not change this fact.

Say what???????

[irish2]

Originally Posted by flappist

Say what???????

Take the engine out of the equation completely. If you are going to change direction in a vehicle that is at speed. Then the amount of potential power an engine produces means absolutely nothing. Weight, center of gravity, suspension, and rubber, do however.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by irish2

Take the engine out of the equation completely. If you are going to change direction in a vehicle that is at speed. Then the amount of potential power an engine produces means absolutely nothing. Weight, center of gravity, suspension, and rubber, do however.

You may wish to do a bit of investigation into dynamics and mechanics. You are so far wrong it is not funny.

There are many force vectors in a turn. Adding force to points that are not at the CoG, for example one or more on the wheels will completely change the equation.

[FPV GTHO]

Nobody takes a corner seriously without some form of throttle though. Especially an 1800kg car that would otherwise just keep scrubbing speed.

[Auslandau]

But can see where Irish is coming from and understand ..... except "absolutely nothing'' bit. You can change the dynamics or the fun factor of a car just by changing Suspension, weight and rubber which really goes without saying. Just boosting horse power doesn't make the car steer better ...... GT335 vs GT335 RSpec of course. Of course HP is necessary but as the HSV boys keep saying since 335 ...... its just now not about the power ...... its about the handling!

Bit obvious ..... so what am I missing?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

But can see where Irish is coming from and understand ..... except "absolutely nothing'' bit. You can change the dynamics or the fun factor of a car just by changing Suspension, weight and rubber which really goes without saying. Just boosting horse power doesn't make the car steer better ...... GT335 vs GT335 RSpec of course. Of course HP is necessary but as the HSV boys keep saying since 335 ...... its just now not about the power ...... its about the handling!

Bit obvious ..... so what am I missing?

Ok, non physics version.....

When you enter a corner there is gravity holding you down, the inertia of the vehicle trying to keep you going in a straight line, friction tuning some of that stored energy into heat and slowing you down and friction of front tyres trying to change the direction.

The front tyres are pushing against the tangential inertia.

Now to test this get onto a flat area and at a steady speed start a turn and after maybe 20 degrees let go of the steering wheel. You will tend to flick back in the other direction not just go straight ahead. The front of the car is out of balance with the back and you swivel back on the CoG to the direction the the middle of the car was trying to go.

Now if you are accelerating in a RWD vehicle you are applying force in the direction the car is facing which is at a different angle to the force of the inertia therefore pushing the rear of the vehicle around the CoG.

Try the above experiment under acceleration and you will find the car flicks back far less and the harder you are accelerating (without breaking traction) the closer you remain to the direction you were facing when you let go.

FWD is even better as rather than just turning you are actually applying force in the direction you want to go.

AWD has both of the above characteristics.

But if this is still a bit confusing then ask yourself why, as a rule, do AWD vehicles out handle FWD & RWD if it is not anything to do with applying power to the various wheels.

[Angeldust]

flappist is right.

Accelerating out of corners. Too much power and its useless. You will just go sideways.
Pointless to have all those extra rwkw, and not really being able to use them.

Sure you can change the setup of the car to accomodate the extra power, but at some point your car will cease to be a 'road' car and become a 'race' car. Both have different positives and negatives depending on the application. I doubt anyone would want to drive a race car to work in peak hour traffic. Or anywhere thats not a race track.

Look at the super taxis, they have ~450Kw and the suspension setup in these things to be able to put this power down effectively is far far from a road car.

[Elks]

Ok flappy, but Irish2 still has a point.

My GTE is a stock standard 335kw engine with however many rwkw that makes. I don't know I've never had it on a dyno. But typically around 330. So lets pretnd I get it tuned, like the cop car, and now its 390. A fairly common result. How does that change the handling? I've added no weight or changed any other parameter.

Ok now it's a more prone to break traction if you're not gentle with the accelerator, but braking, steering, balance, spring rates and damper control all remain as they were. Yes you can now theoretically go into a corner faster, but 335's always had the ability to go into most corners way to fast and corner exit speed is limited by traction.

Cheers.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

If they were lazy the only thing FPV need go do is tweak the tune mildly and change some badges to reflect what ACTUAL output is from factory.

I do hope hsv hire someone different than Optimus Prime as the head of design this time.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Elks

Ok flappy, but Irish2 still has a point.

My GTE is a stock standard 335kw engine with however many rwkw that makes. I don't know I've never had it on a dyno. But typically around 330. So lets pretend I get it tuned, like the cop car, and now its 390. A fairly common result. How does that change the handling? I've added no weight or changed any other parameter.

Ok now it's a more prone to break traction if you're not gentle with the accelerator, but braking, steering, balance, spring rates and damper control all remain as they were. Yes you can now theoretically go into a corner faster, but 335's always had the ability to go into most corners way to fast and corner exit speed is limited by traction.

Cheers.

While this may be so and the FPV has more power than most are capable of using the statement

Originally Posted by irish2

Power has nothing to do with going around a corner. Suspension, weight and rubber determine how fast you can change direction. Adding power does not change this fact.

is incorrect.

With my above experiments try them at 200km/h not 50km/h. Your GTE will not break traction so easily at that speed.
(Now I know you would not actually do this but to any others who are reading this DON'T DO IT, IT IS VERY DANGEROUS).

If the original intention was to imply that better handling would be more useful than more power then I tend do agree with the caveat that a GT is a saloon not a sports car and I suspect a ride like my datto would frighten off more buyers than it attracted.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

I dont get how people think these cars are "sports" cars from factory.. they are comfortable, and for the weight very capable cruisers. Sure F6 and GT can eat most things in a straight line but you have to really start tweaking to get performance in the corners.

If I could have one upgrade for mine and one only it would be coilovers.

[Rodge]

I do hope hsv hire someone different than Optimus Prime as the head of design this time.

That's Gold !!

Arn't we getting a bit off topic here....anyway FWIW it doesn't really matter to me what car(s) HSV release later this year. Anything that I might be interested in, like a SC Senator will be $100K plus Kiwi and not worth it IMO.

[Sioso]

If I could do only one modification to mine it would be weight reduction (about 250-300kg would be great).
That would then improve acceleration, braking, handling, fuel consumption and general wear and tear.

[Chopped]

What does any of this page have to do with the "HSV 2013" ?!!
It seems off topic : )

My prediction is it will have the same engine as current. They will sell it because of the new shape and interior goodies.
I reckon they will retire the GTS name tag initially but then bring it back as a special with different engine (much more power), but not straight away.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

My prediction?

HSV will sell whatever they make.... because bogans......

[BHDOGS]

My prediction PAIN

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by BLOWN.GTP

If I could do only one modification to mine it would be weight reduction (about 250-300kg would be great).
That would then improve acceleration, braking, handling, fuel consumption and general wear and tear.

That's what HSV have planned ..... removing the 14 badges from the rear, 12,000 volts of DLR's and a couple of dozen air vents and they have already saved over 200 kilos!

[Chopped]

^ lol

[F6E]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

That's what HSV have planned ..... removing the 14 badges from the rear, 12,000 volts of DLR's and a couple of dozen air vents and they have already saved over 200 kilos!

Haha LMFAO !!

Funny but true, Senator was on my shopping list post M5, but even Senator unfortunately doesn't escape the, quote, " Optimus Prime " styling ..shame !

[Motorbreath310]

It's already been stated unofficially in a number of articles that LS3 is a carry-over followed by the LT1 upgrade in 2014. Just like they did when VE was launched with the LS2 then LS3 later on. I'm more interested in what the interior will be like. You lnow what Americans are like for features. And the Chrysler 300 has set a high benchmark for the segment. Just ask Rodge!

[irish2]

Originally Posted by flappist

While this may be so and the FPV has more power than most are capable of using the statement



is incorrect.

With my above experiments try them at 200km/h not 50km/h. Your GTE will not break traction so easily at that speed.
(Now I know you would not actually do this but to any others who are reading this DON'T DO IT, IT IS VERY DANGEROUS).

If the original intention was to imply that better handling would be more useful than more power then I tend do agree with the caveat that a GT is a saloon not a sports car and I suspect a ride like my datto would frighten off more buyers than it attracted.

You misinterpreted my post (possibly not worded very well).

I was referring to a specific car. i.e. an F6 with 100rwkw, or 300rwkw is still going to be limited by the rest of the car in how fast it can go around the corner. Obviously the one with more power can accelerate away quicker. This is also under the assumption they both have enough space to achieve that speed before the corner.

[Angeldust]

Originally Posted by grandpa_spec_F6

My prediction?

HSV will sell whatever they make.... because bogans......

... which class of bogan can afford a new hsv?

im definetly not a bogan, but i can only afford 2nd hand ones? lol




edit: yeah probably all those 'bogans' that work in mining..