is it worth supercharging a 6?

[Racecraft]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

don't have an ISC :P
just bump up the idle speed hehe.
surely someone can tune them up there?

WEll yes and no.. I have had places offer to figure it out for me, but I am not convinced they know how to.. I have a new lead of a gent @ Wollongabba that does turbo LPG rotaries so I am waiting to get a phone number or address... And no ISC and the idle.. Done that,,, Thats why it ran out of gas :P

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by stiddy

as far as I know and what Justin from Capa was telling me yes.

No they cannot. The lubrication is for the gear drive but also benefits the bearings on the impeller and input shafts. Vortechs are capable of much much higher internal RPM than a PD unit.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by XR6-VCT-2000

I am actually a fitter and turner by trade , i just drive forklifts nowerdays though.. it really is an easy bracket setup , they use an auto-tension setup , it's just a huge spring with a free spining small pulley below it keeping tension on the belt , mouned to the left of the supercharger on the bracket between the supercharger and the engine - so at higher revs when the belt expands it allows the tension wheel/spring to back off the tention on the belt so it doesn't get to high and burn the belt out.

The bracket i had supplied from CAPA uses a manual tensioner. i.e. adjust it, tighten it... and repeat once the belt has worn in a little...

[EFFalcon]

the powerdyne can run dry because it uses a belt.

[sfr rob]

hey 4.9... tell us moreabout your setup!

[AU:PROJECT:UTE]

How much did your setup cost Tibbo? I'm seriously looking into this and have $5K aside for it. Just wondering how much more I might need? Who supplied your goodies also?

[XR6-VCT-2000]

4.9 EF .......... it wouldn't hurt if u was supplied with a solid mount bracket ;) , it will still work fine . I think the reason for the spring tension setups is just mainlly so u don't have to adjust ur belt as it stretches , and it also helps keep a constant pushdown on the belt as it expands as u increase rmp.

back to the main question ... is it worth supercharging a 6 ? .... yep it sure is

[stiddy]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

No they cannot. The lubrication is for the gear drive but also benefits the bearings on the impeller and input shafts. Vortechs are capable of much much higher internal RPM than a PD unit.

so how are they mounted differently then?

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by XR6-VCT-2000

i think alot of the time ull find it comes down to the main spindle/drive inside the unit itself / like turbos - most of this gear pushing around 9psi or more runs on bearing in the gut that requires a thin layer of oil between the bearings and the spindle , like the main centre of the shaft is sitting within a layer of oil a few thou .oo1" thick of oil, then the bearings around that , u would ceaze most bearing running them dry at such high rpms with such high psi load on it otherwise ..

Spot on mate.

This is the main limitation of the powerdyne unit in regards to boost (i.e. internal blower rpm) due to running sealed bearings with no external lubrication. The CAPA installation manuals have the internal RPM calculations which basically show that you DO NOT want to go messing with the supplied pulley on a powerdyne (for the V8 anyways) as the stock setup is seeing the blower's internal RPM limit reached at engine's redline. For the sake of assigning a number to it, the max internal RPM is 39,000rpm on the PD unit and the calculation is:

(Crank pulley diameter x 3.15) / Supercharger pulley diameter = internal rpm

3.15 is a constant and reflects the internal gearing... i.e. the ratio achieved with the internal belt... vortech ratio is 3.45.

This is despite the fact its easy to obtain a pulley which will produce 11+psi... no suprises for guessing how the powedyne unit gets a poor reputation... if input bearing fails, that's the end of the belt. If compressor bearings fail, that's end of the belt, compressor and probably the engine itself.

RPM will not really harm the internal belt of the powerdyne (to a point) it's more the snapping on and off of throttle that puts it through its paces... hence the old adage that powerdynes are only for street usage and even better suited to vehicles with automatic transmissions....

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by stiddy

so how are they mounted differently then?

Stiddy, the differences in the brackets are more to do with the actual shape of the supercharger itself. PDs are fair bit bigger IIRC... but ignoring the accuracy of this statment, the bracket needs to be suited to the shape of the blower so you can get plenty of bolts on there to hold the thing on. I can provide pics of mine if im not explaining this very well... (EDIT: See pic below... you'd want something that fit the vortech unit snugly like this)

IIRC you can get a "universal" bracket for both types of blowers. Inventive young people such as yourselves may be able to work with such an item to mount a vortech to an I6?

It's fairly simple concept. If you can get the pulleys to line up and if the thing can withstand a fair bit of force (i.e. the blower/pulley wont move in relation to the engine/pulley)...

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by sfr rob

hey 4.9... tell us moreabout your setup!

What would you like to know mate? "I have detailed files"

[XR6-VCT-2000]

the bracket i was on about was like a normal hard solid mounted bracket still with standard pulley size wheel on it still , but inbetween the main bracket and the engine is another heavy sring loaded arm that hangs of the bracket with a free running small wheel which pushes down on the outer side of the belt to keep it tensioned better and to stop the belt flexing outward as the rmp increase ... its was just an add on really i think to keep the belt better tensioned and to keep the belt down on the main supercharger pulley and engine pulley better at high rpm.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by XR6-VCT-2000

the bracket i was on about was like a normal hard solid mounted bracket still with standard pulley size wheel on it still , but inbetween the main bracket and the engine is another heavy sring loaded arm that hangs of the bracket with a free running small wheel which pushes down on the outer side of the belt to keep it tensioned better and to stop the belt flexing outward as the rmp increase ... its was just an add on really i think to keep the belt better tensioned and to keep the belt down on the main supercharger pulley and engine pulley better at high rpm.

That would be ideal - particularly with the belt expansion under high RPM. Mine very simple, came with a CAPA E-series V8 kit. Pic here of the bracket during install - the top idler pulley pushes down to tension the belt up:



EDIT: Lol, relax... that's the tool used to push the power steering pump back on

[XR6-VCT-2000]

thats still a nice setup ;) - looks like it will work np

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by XR6-VCT-2000

thats still a nice setup ;) - looks like it will work np

18 months and still going strong

[XR6-VCT-2000]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

18 months and still going strong

very nice , well done .... have u tried messing around with the pulley size on the supercharger ? , like decresing the size of the pulley a tadd ? ! - u can get more go out of these units , but depends now how many psi ur allready pushing the unit at ( if it running near its max pri forget loweing pulley size a tadd or u'll fry the bearings ) ...lol , a lot of fun and mods can be had by doing so though , but u hit a point where u can only go so small on the supercharger pulley anyways or its to much load on the pulley and engine to drive the supercharger efficientlly , or u fry bearings from running the suppercharger at to high rpm's . ...lol ... lone live the superchargers , nice consistant grunt for ya engine , unlike the 'whack' of a turbo - yeah the 'whack' feels good to you , but it doesn't feel good to your engine ! ..lol

[4.9 EF Futura]

Ive looked at the pulleys available in the states... but as mentioned, ive calculated the internal RPM of my unit and it's at its limit when i redline the engine (not very often, lol). Supposedly a 9psi kit, dyno readout shows 7.5psi but this is consistent with what ive read on mustang forums in the USA.

Also worth noting that with the V8 powerdyne kit, still run 19# injectors and ramp fuel up with a 12:1 FMU... so injectors are well and truly past their comfort zone.. i dont think itd be a great idea pumping any more air into the combustion chamber... fuelling is always a consideration before tampering with the air side of things...

[XR6-VCT-2000]

ooohh , i didnt realize ur injectors were at their limit too , no worries , im sure ur having enough fun with it as is anyways as is ;) ..

[XR6-VCT-2000]

were your pulleys supplied with the unit , both the extension pulley for the engine and the pulley for the supercharger ? .. I'm just wondering as u say your pushing the supercharger to its max now at redline but only reaching 7.5 psi , u should be able to get a bit more out of that imo, sounds like maybe the combo of the 2 pulleys arent matched , could be 1 or the other pulley ... just a thought ..

[4.9 EF Futura]

Yeah they were the pulleys which came with the kit... i cant recall the exact measurements but it did put the internal blower speed at the max recommended... regardless of psi in the manifold.

BTW just realised the forumla i entered before was incorrect... should read:

(crank pulley diamater x 3.15 x engine rpm) / supercharger pulley diameter = internal rpm

PS. Lol @ CAPA with $165 for blower pulleys

[Bucknaked]

Stick twin turbo's on iot Rob. It will really fly :

[XR6-VCT-2000]

[QUOTE=4.9 EF Futura]Yeah they were the pulleys which came with the kit... i cant recall the exact measurements but it did put the internal blower speed at the max recommended... regardless of psi in the manifold. [QUOTE]

"it did put the internal blower speed at the max recommended... regardless of psi in the manifold" ....lol - i was actually thinking this just after i typed my last message and thought if that was your case then what i said wouldn't matter anyway .. ;) .. i thought maybe before at redline the supercharger wasn't maybe running at max rpm .. ;) nd . :

[stiddy]

Good read 4.9, I understood what you meant, but the pic worked wonders for me lol.

I imagine it wouldnt be too hard to work out a way to mount the Vortech units..

physically how heavy are the units, if you know?
and how thick/strong are the mounting brackets?

another thing I was pondering on, the Air intake, you've got the black pipe bent around and down into the front somewhere..
does it still get enough air? or is it lacking a little?

[Racecraft]

the brackets are just 10mm mild steel plate

[stiddy]

ahh ok so anyone that can use a measure, pencil, ginder with some time could knock one up..
orrrrr my fitter/machinist mate could :P haha

[Racecraft]

yea, easy as... the bracket just has to be true to the pulleys and line up to the mounting points on the unit itself... The one in my kit was off an EL but modified to fit an AU HP

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by stiddy

Good read 4.9, I understood what you meant, but the pic worked wonders for me lol.

I imagine it wouldnt be too hard to work out a way to mount the Vortech units..

physically how heavy are the units, if you know?
and how thick/strong are the mounting brackets?

another thing I was pondering on, the Air intake, you've got the black pipe bent around and down into the front somewhere..
does it still get enough air? or is it lacking a little?

The blowers are pretty f---en heavy.. i'd estimate around 20 kilos? That's a fairly rough guess tho... the bracket i have is also very heavy and this is probably evident in the photo... it'd be the better part of 3/4inch thick. To quote a fellow south australian (walkinshaw) - "It's the most over engineered bracket of all time".

Something i found interesting on the CAPA site:

http://www.capa.com.au/kits_custom.htm

Scroll down the bottom and there's some examples of "universal" vortech mounting brackets. Price list shows them priced @ $149 (compared with $690 price on mine if purchased outside of a kit).

http://www.capa.com.au/prices_capa_performance.htm

The air intake does indeed go 'down into the front somwhere' lol. I cut a hole in the inner guard and the flexipipe runs down there to a pod filter mounted just under the headlight... near the EF's fake 'brake duct'. The flexipipe is the same diameter as the blower inlet so it can move plenty of air into the blower...

[stiddy]

Thanks for that mate.. a blower definately sounds like the way to go. and 149 for the bracket is cheaper that I thought, alot cheaper, was thinking it would be another $800+

Come on Tibbo, get cracking with the kit, need some pics of installation on a I6 now :P

Where does the actual bracket mount to the motor on a 6?

[Racecraft]

the powerdyne weighs 14 kilos on my dodgey bathroom scales :P

[Racecraft]

it looks without getting overtly keen and pulling things off yet :P to use the lower thermostat housing bolt, the top A/C compressor bolt and one of the tensioner bolts.. THat is only a quick peek though not gospel