diesel falcon

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I'm not talking about the old "bowl of rice" workers in Asia.

I don't know real up to date figures, but I'm willing to bet that the average "unskilled" production line worker in the USA (read UAW member) earned substantially less than those on the Aussie production line.

Dr Terry

I read the starting wage is US$18 an hour, which equates to AUD$26 an hour. Our wages couldn’t have been too far away from that could they?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I read the starting wage is US$18 an hour, which equates to AUD$26 an hour. Our wages couldn’t have been too far away from that could they?

They are comparible. The legacy workers earn good money over there. New hires make a fair chunk less, and they don't get legacy wages until they have done a certain number of years. Like 5-7?

The US auto workers also get a slice of Ford dividends with a bonus cheque every year, which we don't get.

I just looked it up and the average UAW auto worker gets about US $23 an hour. So i'd say converted to aussie (roughly $33) dollar their wages are pretty close with ours really. But in real world terms, with everything cheaper in the USA, it means they probably have higher real world wages. And they get the bonus dividend every year, which can be another 4-5k.

The legacy workers are well paid, the new hires are dudded a bit though.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They are comparible. The legacy workers earn good money over there. New hires make a fair chunk less, and they don't get legacy wages until they have done a certain number of years. Like 5-7?

The US auto workers also get a slice of Ford dividends with a bonus cheque every year, which we don't get.

I just looked it up and the average UAW auto worker gets about US $23 an hour. So i'd say converted to aussie (roughly $33) dollar their wages are pretty close with ours really. But in real world terms, with everything cheaper in the USA, it means they probably have higher real world wages. And they get the bonus dividend every year, which can be another 4-5k.

The legacy workers are well paid, the new hires are dudded a bit though.

Imagine having the cheaper cost of living and comparable wages to Australia + bonuses, they probably get healthcare too.

But greedy Australian production line workers ****ed it for Ford Australia and Holden, of course its not the sea of ****ty CEOs, AUD going dollar for dollar with the USD, energy prices in Australia, internal politics between the Australian/US subsidiaries and no export markets that was the problem (excl Holden on the exports).

I'm blaming the AU Falcon for both Ford Australia and Holden's demise

For cars which were supposedly unloved, the second hand values of SS/XR6T/XR8 sure tell a different story.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I can remember a few clients at the time complaining about how heavy on fuel they were.

For Territory's? That's why most people bought the diesel, even though they cost about 2K more

Thinking about it more Falcon really did have the same reputation and if a diesel were available it would probably have had similar results

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

For Territory's? That's why most people bought the diesel, even though they cost about 2K more

Thinking about it more Falcon really did have the same reputation and if a diesel were available it would probably have had similar results

I reckon the choice of engine for the diesel Territory was the biggest mistake, surely there was a way better option that wasn't so..... 'European'.

Even then why did they use the older 2.7L V6 instead of the updated 3L one.

One of the links in this thread mentions there was work on a diesel variation of the Barra, wonder if the development costs outweighed sourcing the 2.7L V6 or it didn't meet targets for NVH.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Imagine having the cheaper cost of living and comparable wages to Australia + bonuses, they probably get healthcare too.

But greedy Australian production line workers ****ed it for Ford Australia and Holden, of course its not the sea of ****ty CEOs, AUD going dollar for dollar with the USD, energy prices in Australia, internal politics between the Australian/US subsidiaries and no export markets that was the problem (excl Holden on the exports).

I'm blaming the AU Falcon for both Ford Australia and Holden's demise

For cars which were supposedly unloved, the second hand values of SS/XR6T/XR8 sure tell a different story.

I would want to rage when people blamed high wages for their demise. I saw the electricity bill for the casting plant, and it was insane. Yet somehow the 6% of costs that go into vehicle production from wages were the problem. Even now I still see it get trotted out in the comments sections of auto news whenever there is a story about making cars in australia again. Uninformed clowns keep spouting that crap even with evidence to the contrary, because they are like little parrots who can't believe anything that differs from the narrative.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I reckon the choice of engine for the diesel Territory was the biggest mistake, surely there was a way better option that wasn't so..... 'European'.

Even then why did they use the older 2.7L V6 instead of the updated 3L one.

One of the links in this thread mentions there was work on a diesel variation of the Barra, wonder if the development costs outweighed sourcing the 2.7L V6 or it didn't meet targets for NVH.

2 different time periods. The initial diesel Territory was supposed to be early on, with the diesel Barra. The period where the later Territory got the 2.7 was years down the track. It was never a choice between the 2.

I'm not sure what happened with the diesel Barra, but production capacity would have been an issue I assume. Back in the early to mid 2000's the engine plant was running at max capacity just building Barra's for BA and Territory. There was no extra capacity to build more, unless they were going to spend significant amounts of money upgrading everything to increase build rate. Would have been a boat load of cash.

I don't even know if the idea of Barra diesel was even realistic, and if they even got to the point of working on it. Or whether it was just an idea and didn't go beyond that. I would make the assumption that they may have done studies on the feasibility of it, but who knows if they got to the point of going further, with designs done and building of prototypes. I'd say not.

I'd love to pick the brains of some of the old powertrain engineers out here one day. But most of them are gone now, cause most of the powertrain development shifted to Dearborn and Dagenham a few years ago.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I reckon the choice of engine for the diesel Territory was the biggest mistake, surely there was a way better option that wasn't so..... 'European'.

Even then why did they use the older 2.7L V6 instead of the updated 3L one.

One of the links in this thread mentions there was work on a diesel variation of the Barra, wonder if the development costs outweighed sourcing the 2.7L V6 or it didn't meet targets for NVH.

You know the engine in the new Ranger is basically the same thing..

But yes after owning one I found the 2.7 very nice to drive, but it produced its peak power at RPMs higher than a diesel should be revved.

a 4 cylinder diesel might have been a better option, but they all sound like a Massey Fergusson, not for me..

as good as the Barra was, it was a 4L engine. a possible diesel variant would power a Truck

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

You know the engine in the new Ranger is basically the same thing..

But yes after owning one I found the 2.7 very nice to drive, but it produced its peak power at RPMs higher than a diesel should be revved.

a 4 cylinder diesel might have been a better option, but they all sound like a Massey Fergusson, not for me..

as good as the Barra was, it was a 4L engine. a possible diesel variant would power a Truck

Yep, I'm no fan of diesel Thailand Specials as you well know, although its a step in the right direction for the segment.

[Techno]

I laugh at people who buy 4wd and never use them for there intended purpose

[Citroënbender]

What - don’t use them for shopping, school pick-ups and coffee dates? :p

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Techno

I laugh at people who buy 4wd and never use them for there intended purpose

I laugh when I read people not buying a Territory because they couldn't get a petrol in AWD anymore.

[Swordie]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I would want to rage when people blamed high wages for their demise. I saw the electricity bill for the casting plant, and it was insane. Yet somehow the 6% of costs that go into vehicle production from wages were the problem. Even now I still see it get trotted out in the comments sections of auto news whenever there is a story about making cars in australia again. Uninformed clowns keep spouting that crap even with evidence to the contrary, because they are like little parrots who can't believe anything that differs from the narrative.

I thought the Federal Government's strategy at the time with the industry was very weak. I thought they could of done more to discuss what to do going forward. Holden and Toyota wanted to stay. Helping Holden would of provided a net economic benefit.

If Labour was in at the time they would of tried allot harder to keep the industry going. They did this in 80's when the industry was not going well.

Who knows if Toyota was still here it could of been building the Hilux. They can't keep up with demand now.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Swordie

I thought the Federal Government's strategy at the time with the industry was very weak. I thought they could of done more to discuss what to do going forward. Holden and Toyota wanted to stay. Helping Holden would of provided a net economic benefit.

If Labour was in at the time they would of tried allot harder to keep the industry going. They did this in 80's when the industry was not going well.

Who knows if Toyota was still here it could of been building the Hilux. They can't keep up with demand now.

Joe Hockey had an interesting strategy here:



I reckon they would have been better subsidising local cars on a customer level - no rego costs for the first three years/no GST on purchase/no LCT.

[Junkyard-Dog]

Could have, would have, should have.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Swordie

I thought the Federal Government's strategy at the time with the industry was very weak. I thought they could of done more to discuss what to do going forward. Holden and Toyota wanted to stay. Helping Holden would of provided a net economic benefit.

If Labour was in at the time they would of tried allot harder to keep the industry going. They did this in 80's when the industry was not going well.

Who knows if Toyota was still here it could of been building the Hilux. They can't keep up with demand now.

All the other car manufacturing countries are throwing cash at manufacturers to support them, and many non-car building countries are dying to get them to build cars there.

Our govco basically told them to bugger off. What am I missing here? Wouldn't have anything to do with it being a unionised industry would it? Not hard to figure that out when you have one side of the parliament with union haters like Michaela Cash, Joe Hockey and all the rest of them.

[XR Martin]

Didnt Ford briefly look into building the Ranger here?

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Didnt Ford briefly look into building the Ranger here?

Pretty sure that was the Focus. They intended to shut down the engine plant in 2010, import the Cyclone V6 as a Barra replacement and assemble Focus here from CKD kits.

When they cancelled the V6 and Focus, and therefore saving the engine plant, that was basically the point where Ford US pulled the pin on local manufacturing.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

All the other car manufacturing countries are throwing cash at manufacturers to support them, and many non-car building countries are dying to get them to build cars there.

When you're pumping out hundreds of thousands of cars per year then you'd want to hang onto them and they would certainly be desirable for non-car building nations to obtain.

But do you really think an overseas country would have found our little manucturing plants desriable enough to invest mega millions in to build 40,000 cars a year?

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Our govco basically told them to bugger off. What am I missing here? Wouldn't have anything to do with it being a unionised industry would it? Not hard to figure that out when you have one side of the parliament with union haters like Michaela Cash, Joe Hockey and all the rest of them.

Thats an odd way to look at it from someone who worked for a manufacturer.

They weren't told to bugger off, they were asked to "put up or shut up".

We had 2 manufacturers with aging products whose sales were constantly dropping off a cliff. Both their products requires major refreshes and updates at a cost of I'm sure around a couple of billion $$$ and even then these products were fast falling out of favor with the vast manjority of buyers.

So when the line was drawn, they chose to shut up. Its not as if Ford hadn't been half out the door for decades. Holden the same in recent times. Without government funding it just proved they weren't viable businesses. And we all know they/we are too expensive to export from, so nothing there.

They were simply failing businesses that we were throwing good money after bad with no end in sight. It had to come to an end sometime, it was inevitable. To me the blame falls squarely on Ford and Holden, one trick ponies that did nothing to keep up with the times.

And yes, I do think unions probably had something to do with it. Unions have their place, but in Australia they are overlords with too much power. They love nothing more than driving businesses into the ground.

And if it wasn't that, then current costs resources and supplies costs would have killed them off anyways.

If you look at it honestly and without bias you can easily see what happened.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by arm79

When you're pumping out hundreds of thousands of cars per year then you'd want to hang onto them and they would certainly be desirable for non-car building nations to obtain.

But do you really think an overseas country would have found our little manucturing plants desriable enough to invest mega millions in to build 40,000 cars a year?



Thats an odd way to look at it from someone who worked for a manufacturer.

They weren't told to bugger off, they were asked to "put up or shut up".

We had 2 manufacturers with aging products whose sales were constantly dropping off a cliff. Both their products requires major refreshes and updates at a cost of I'm sure around a couple of billion $$$ and even then these products were fast falling out of favor with the vast manjority of buyers.

So when the line was drawn, they chose to shut up. Its not as if Ford hadn't been half out the door for decades. Holden the same in recent times. Without government funding it just proved they weren't viable businesses. And we all know they/we are too expensive to export from, so nothing there.

They were simply failing businesses that we were throwing good money after bad with no end in sight. It had to come to an end sometime, it was inevitable. To me the blame falls squarely on Ford and Holden, one trick ponies that did nothing to keep up with the times.

And yes, I do think unions probably had something to do with it. Unions have their place, but in Australia they are overlords with too much power. They love nothing more than driving businesses into the ground.

And if it wasn't that, then current costs resources and supplies costs would have killed them off anyways.

If you look at it honestly and without bias you can easily see what happened.

I just wish the remaining three companies got together and agreed to level out the playing field in terms of what they were building locally.

When you think about it, a large sedan and its derivatives were being built by all three, four if you included Mitsubishi. Once the tariffs were phased out, suddenly other brands and body styles became more desirable and affordable. Which then left Ford, Toyota, Mitsubish and Holden all selling a product that was losing popularity. That factor has been discussed many times over the years.

If the remaining car manufacturers had done some collaborative planning, it could have diversified the locally made car fleet, in the process offering more opportunities for local businesses and governments to stay Australian made.

For example, Mitsubish could have made the Outlander medium SUV locally instead of the 380, catering to private sales and rentals.

Holden could have made another large sedan in the form of the Commodore, while spinning off a Territory-style large SUV. This would appeal to private customers, fleet, taxi and police sales.

Toyota could have made the Corolla hatch/sedan, catering to private, rental and fleets needing a smaller vehicle. The Hilux Ute would then be targeted at tradesman, government departments and police.

Ford could then have made Ranger and Everest, both aimed the private market, with additional sales coming from police and government land services.

That combination would have offered a wider variety of locally produced cars, catering to more applications in both the private and fleet markets rather than them all essentially making the same thing.

In the end, all of them were flogging a dead horse.

[Bolly47]

Just miss my bidding on diesel falcon on graysonline tonight by one mins was sold for $650 and there is some information

2012 Ford Falcon RWD Automatic Sedan

Body Type: Sedan
Compliance Date: 02/2012
VIN: 6FPAAAJGSWCR68155
Registration Expiry Date: Sold Unregistered, Without Plates
No. of Cylinders: ?
Engine Capacity: ?
Fuel Type: Diesel
Drive Type: RWD
Transmission: Automatic
Exterior Colour: White
General Condition for age and distance travelled:

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Joe Hockey had an interesting strategy here:



I reckon they would have been better subsidising local cars on a customer level - no rego costs for the first three years/no GST on purchase/no LCT.

I don't believe that the Lib Govt. alone could be blamed for the demise of our car industry. Far more car companies closed down under Labour than they did under the Libs.

Nissan left in the Hawke days. Mitsubishi left under Krudd & Ford announced their departure under Gillard. During the 70s Whitlam began it all, killing manufacturing in many different areas.

'nuf said.

Dr Terry

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I don't believe that the Lib Govt. alone could be blamed for the demise of our car industry. Far more car companies closed down under Labour than they did under the Libs.

Nissan left in the Hawke days. Mitsubishi left under Krudd & Ford announced their departure under Gillard. During the 70s Whitlam began it all, killing manufacturing in many different areas.

'nuf said.

Dr Terry

Yes check the Lima Declaration he signed up to, the start of the end.
It just took a few decades for reality to bite.

[lra]

Originally Posted by Swordie

Holden and Toyota wanted to stay. Helping Holden would of provided a net economic benefit. .

GM / Holden were only "guaranteeing" to stay until 2022, if the Fed Govt stumped up enough subsidies.
They still would have built the FWD ZB 'Insigniadore' which was destined to fail, no matter where it was built.
GMs track record around the world (excluding USA) is plain to see, and the Opel, Vauxhall, and Buick versions of the ZB have now all bitten the dust, which probably have left Holden in 2023 importing some electric SAIC ****box from China .............an MG with a Holden badge ? Yeah, nah.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Bolly47

Just miss my bidding on diesel falcon on graysonline tonight by one mins was sold for $650 and there is some information

2012 Ford Falcon RWD Automatic Sedan

Body Type: Sedan
Compliance Date: 02/2012
VIN: 6FPAAAJGSWCR68155
Registration Expiry Date: Sold Unregistered, Without Plates
No. of Cylinders: ?
Engine Capacity: ?
Fuel Type: Diesel
Drive Type: RWD
Transmission: Automatic
Exterior Colour: White
General Condition for age and distance travelled:

Misprint.
It's an Ecoboost 2L petrol.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Bolly47

Just miss my bidding on diesel falcon on graysonline tonight by one mins was sold for $650 and there is some information

2012 Ford Falcon RWD Automatic Sedan

Body Type: Sedan
Compliance Date: 02/2012
VIN: 6FPAAAJGSWCR68155
Registration Expiry Date: Sold Unregistered, Without Plates
No. of Cylinders: ?
Engine Capacity: ?
Fuel Type: Diesel
Drive Type: RWD
Transmission: Automatic
Exterior Colour: White
General Condition for age and distance travelled:

Lucky then - never bid without more information, clearly not a Diesel, but sold very cheap

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Swordie

I thought the Federal Government's strategy at the time with the industry was very weak. I thought they could of done more to discuss what to do going forward. Holden and Toyota wanted to stay. Helping Holden would of provided a net economic benefit.

If Labour was in at the time they would of tried allot harder to keep the industry going. They did this in 80's when the industry was not going well.

Who knows if Toyota was still here it could of been building the Hilux. They can't keep up with demand now.

Let it go production here is finished

Blaming the Libs is a very one eyed view, and you can't refer to the 80s for inspiration

Despite what you say - Holden didn't commit it would have been stupid for our Government to send Money to Detroit for no Local Benefit

Toyota would never have Built Hilux here.

[GasoLane]

The car in question has been sold. Wage equality between the USA and Aus has been checked again and the argument as to who or what caused the big two to stop making cars here continues.

So...... endthread.