Holden - $600 million to shut down.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by wildrider

I'd rather my tax money going too other more important stuff like hospitals, roads, infrastructure etc, then to a company that gets given money from the government and then has the hide too demand more, with all that extra money they got compared to the other two manufactures, they have the least amount of local content in their cars.

We all agree on that no doubt, and the extra economic return generated by Holden and other major companies/ industries, allow govco to continue investment/funding of our nations vital assets.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by wildrider

http://www.caradvice.com.au/255011/h...listic-report/

and what is wrong with the government asking for this???

Toyota does it. why cant Holden?? If they cant do it. why should the government give them money??? If you were paying money too someone for something and they said they cant do it. would you still give them money???

Nothing wrong at all provided its realistic.
"Macfarlane (above) reportedly set Holden a 30 per cent export target – roughly double its current rate – but yesterday admitted he was not sure what level the car maker could realistically achieve".

More to the point though, it shows how "little support/interest" there is when a minister can make outlandish projections without ever understanding or knowing if infact its achievable.

[jpd80]

The Australian Financial Review quotes senior government sources that claim Holden has told
the government the business case for an expanded export program is not economically viable.

So much for the "Export or die" party line, looks more like exports are money pits...
Successive governments have killed the local car manufacturing all for the sake of cheap imports.
They should all hang their heads in shame, thousands of jobs now offshored in other countries.

[Bossxr8]

Damn right jpd.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by jpd80

So much for the "Export or die" party line, looks more like exports are money pits...
Successive governments have killed the local car manufacturing all for the sake of cheap imports.
They should all hang their heads in shame, thousands of jobs now offshored in other countries.

Australias population in 1996 was 18.3 million. It has now grown 20% to 22 million. In 1996, there were 650,000 cars sold in australia, nearly every year since 2007, over 1 million cars have been sold in Australia each year (nearly 60% growth).

In 1992, it took me a few years to save enough to buy my first new car, now i save to buy the same car in 6 months.

Cheap imports have allowed people to buy more cars, thus creating more jobs that go into the supporting industries, and also allow people to spend money that would have otherwise gone into buying an axpensive car on other products.

The only people who have suffered are the ones stuck in the past.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by jpd80

So much for the "Export or die" party line, looks more like exports are money pits...
Successive governments have killed the local car manufacturing all for the sake of cheap imports.
They should all hang their heads in shame, thousands of jobs now offshored in other countries.

Australias population in 1996 was 18.3 million. It has now grown 20% to 22 million. In 1996, there were 650,000 cars sold in australia, nearly every year since 2007, over 1 million cars have been sold in Australia each year (nearly 60% growth).

In 1992, it took me a few years to save enough to buy my first new car, now i can save to buy the same car in 6 months.

Cheap imports have allowed people to buy more cars, thus creating more jobs that go into the supporting industries, and also allow people to spend money that would have otherwise gone into buying an expensive car on other products.

The only people who have suffered are the ones stuck in the past.

[jpd80]

What crock, follow the money, it all goes off shore back to Japan, Thailand and Korea.

The government used to pocket all the money from import tariffs for itself, now they lose 25% of the total,
they have killed the local industry so lose the income generated by it too. Everything was lost because of shortsighted greed.

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

In 1992, it took me a few years to save enough to buy my first new car, now i can save to buy the same car in 6 months.

Sadly the wealthy mining Johnnys won't wake up until their jobs are replaced by 457As on FIFO.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Sadly the wealthy mining Johnnys won't wake up until their jobs are replaced by 457As on FIFO.

and all for a whopping $10. p/h

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by jpd80

What crock, follow the money, it all goes off shore back to Japan, Thailand and Korea.

The government used to pocket all the money from import tariffs for itself, now they lose 25% of the total,
they have killed the local industry so lose the income generated by it too. Everything was lost because of shortsighted greed.


Sadly the wealthy mining Johnnys won't wake up until their jobs are replaced by 457As on FIFO.

How dare people spend the money they earn on what they want too!

[bobthebilda]

=jpd80;4913656]What crock, follow the money, it all goes off shore back to Japan, Thailand and Korea.

No. A $20,000 car sold here, somewhere around $4000 of that goes into government coffers. As car sales have increased at a faster pace than population growth (due to affordability), an extra 200,000 cars per year have sold every year, than would have otherwise been. 200,000 x $4000 = $800 million for the government, and a hell of alot of jobs.

Sadly the wealthy mining Johnnys won't wake up until their jobs are replaced by 457As on FIFO

I think the 100's of thousands of people that are making big money from the mining sector, will respond alot quicker than the 15,000 or so people that are directly employed in the local car manufacturing sector.

[flooded one]

can I buy a Four wheel Drive made by Australians new from Ford, Holden and Toyota??

[XRtowcar]

Last time i looked, a Territory.
Or do you mean ute?

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

No. A $20,000 car sold here, somewhere around $4000 of that goes into government coffers. As car sales have increased at a faster pace than population growth (due to affordability), an extra 200,000 cars per year have sold every year, than would have otherwise been. 200,000 x $4000 = $800 million for the government, and a hell of alot of jobs.

Car industry funding does not seem so evil when you see what the Government receives in terms of revenue.........

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

Last time i looked, a Territory.
Or do you mean ute?

Territory is not a Four wheel drive its an All wheel drive. A territory would be hopeless for serious off roading

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

No. A $20,000 car sold here, somewhere around $4000 of that goes into government coffers. As car sales have increased at a faster pace than population growth (due to affordability), an extra 200,000 cars per year have sold every year, than would have otherwise been. 200,000 x $4000 = $800 million for the government, and a hell of alot of jobs.



I think the 100's of thousands of people that are making big money from the mining sector, will respond alot quicker than the 15,000 or so people that are directly employed in the local car manufacturing sector.

Bob, where do you source your figures from?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Really?? You bring up plastics....in cheap bang for your buck cars! The logical person would praise the performance.....the engines that FORD AUS has engineered,previously being rated the best performance sedans in the world under100k. Holdens Australian efforts are POOR at best. Crate v8s and worst in class v6s. What about the BMW x5 rivalling territory.....makes the cheap Holden softroaders look terrible. Holden cruize doesnt come close to the focus... Altho holden makes a car thats in the same class as the fiesta.....i dare not mention its cheap as korean name. The aussie ford Ranger destroys holdens 4x4.I could go on forever....
And yes I've sat in Vfs......but they look disgusting so ill keep my G6ET thanks. At least it's got classy looks
So yes...ford aus has something FAR better in ever category for us to buy....except for maybe the new GTS.....but that's a touchy subject as its far more expensive,and the tech hasn't proved itself(lots of failures) and not to mention the engine again is crated from the states. Our Gt is crated here...pulled apart and including the supercharger 70% is changed out by fords engineers. Im proud of Ford Australia and what they've built the last ten years.....what's Holden done???? Seriously ...tell me......

If you are after a logical response then the locally made Holden sold more than the Ford. Yes in some cases the Blue oval engineering was better and the Falcon won many more car comparisons than the Holden pre VE Commode but buyers voted with their wallets.
Biased opinions don't count for much when the oppositions cars sell better, sadly that is the reality for the local Fords.


Bill.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Bill M

If you are after a logical response then the locally made Holden sold more than the Ford. Yes in some cases the Blue oval engineering was better and the Falcon won many more car comparisons than the Holden pre VE Commode but buyers voted with their wallets.
Biased opinions don't count for much when the oppositions cars sell better, sadly that is the reality for the local Fords.


Bill.

Yep that's the reality......but hears another reality......I can be more proud of my better engineered falcon with more local content in the car than every single commadore i pass. Looser....looser....there goes another looser.

Holden is who benefits from more sales......the public just gets an inferior car. Holden knows this and no doubt all the suckers who buy holdens over a whim, simply feed Holden and they return the favour with a better car next time around with all the money they made from all the sales....oh wait, no they don't :

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Yep that's the reality......but hears another reality......I can be more proud of my better engineered falcon with more local content in the car than every single commadore i pass. Looser....looser....there goes another looser.

Holden is who benefits from more sales......the public just gets an inferior car. Holden knows this and no doubt all the suckers who buy holdens over a whim, simply feed Holden and they return the favour with a better car next time around with all the money they made from all the sales....oh wait, no they don't :

Did you read his post properly ? He mentioned "biased opinions" , me thinks that went over someone's head ! Those that choose to buy a particular badge are not always buying on a whim , they may be doing exactly the same as you blindly following brand loyalty .
The biggest benefit I can see to owning a Falcon over a Commodore is no one steals a Falcon ( well not unless it has the keys in it anyway ** . What does that tell you ?
All jokes aside , losing both commodore and falcon is a tragedy . Even though the V8s are very loosely related to the actual production vehicle for along time , they still carried the badge , and while in the scheme of things it is small potatoes compared to job and manufacturing /engineering expertise lost , it is still a little bit more of the Australian culture lost forever . That rivalry , that pigheaded blind bias will take years to cultivate again , if ever .

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Did you read his post properly ? He mentioned "biased opinions" , me thinks that went over someone's head ! Those that choose to buy a particular badge are not always buying on a whim , they may be doing exactly the same as you blindly following brand loyalty .
The biggest benefit I can see to owning a Falcon over a Commodore is no one steals a Falcon ( well not unless it has the keys in it anyway ** . What does that tell you ?
All jokes aside , losing both commodore and falcon is a tragedy . Even though the V8s are very loosely related to the actual production vehicle for along time , they still carried the badge , and while in the scheme of things it is small potatoes compared to job and manufacturing /engineering expertise lost , it is still a little bit more of the Australian culture lost forever . That rivalry , that pigheaded blind bias will take years to cultivate again , if ever .

tells me Commodores are easier to steal.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Did you read his post properly ? He mentioned "biased opinions" , me thinks that went over someone's head ! Those that choose to buy a particular badge are not always buying on a whim , they may be doing exactly the same as you blindly following brand loyalty .
The biggest benefit I can see to owning a Falcon over a Commodore is no one steals a Falcon ( well not unless it has the keys in it anyway ** . What does that tell you ?
All jokes aside , losing both commodore and falcon is a tragedy . Even though the V8s are very loosely related to the actual production vehicle for along time , they still carried the badge , and while in the scheme of things it is small potatoes compared to job and manufacturing /engineering expertise lost , it is still a little bit more of the Australian culture lost forever . That rivalry , that pigheaded blind bias will take years to cultivate again , if ever .

Are u saying my opinion is biased because of the fact i choose falcons over commadores...BASED on the FACT that they r better? Nice one bud.....maybe the FACTS that commadore(and most holdens in aus) has a far greater import content and in general are engineered inferior to the falcon....slipped over YOUR head
Look up biased in the dictionary before you use it again

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Are u saying my opinion is biased because of the fact i choose falcons over commadores...BASED on the FACT that they r better? Nice one bud.....maybe the FACTS that commadore(and most holdens in aus) has a far greater import content and in general are engineered inferior to the falcon....slipped over YOUR head
Look up biased in the dictionary before you use it again

Not at all , just saying you missed the facts . For reasons out of your control , some people chose to by a commAdore over the Falcon . Myself like a lot of other people are not brand loyal to the extent just because daddy owned falcons I have too . I was quite the opposite actually , out of 15 cars 9 have been falcons , coming from a holden family I was the black sheep .
However you have to have incentive to keep buying the same . Unfortunatly in my case that didn't happen . ZF autos with half arsed coolers , plastic tensioners , warped discs , diff bushes etc Engineered you say ! I say they BOTH have issues .
Just out of interest why do a lot of Audis now running in cab fleets and few falcons , have we come back to their level or have they matched us ?
After all the bottom line in taxis is value for money , hmmm.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Not at all , just saying you missed the facts . For reasons out of your control , some people chose to by a commAdore over the Falcon . Myself like a lot of other people are not brand loyal to the extent just because daddy owned falcons I have too . I was quite the opposite actually , out of 15 cars 9 have been falcons , coming from a holden family I was the black sheep .
However you have to have incentive to keep buying the same . Unfortunatly in my case that didn't happen . ZF autos with half arsed coolers , plastic tensioners , warped discs , diff bushes etc Engineered you say ! I say they BOTH have issues .
Just out of interest why do a lot of Audis now running in cab fleets and few falcons , have we come back to their level or have they matched us ?
After all the bottom line in taxis is value for money , hmmm.

Just because you have a bad experience...doesn't mean all falcons are dodgy. My family where all Holden fans....me and my bro both grew up buying falcons. If you actually do some research you'll find commadores have alot more problems. Commadore even has the most recalled and customer complaints model car in aus history and if you don't get my engineering point(aus v8s,sixes,turbos and so on) then you obviously don't want to get it.
And I guarantee there's still a million more falcon taxis then AUDI taxis. I've never even heard of one

[fte50]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Commadore even has the most recalled and customer complaints model car in aus history

Don't really have to be too far on the right side of thick to realise any product that sells in higher numbers than its competition has more potential for a higher complaints rate etc ..... purely coz there are more.... get it

[2011G6E]

Not a surprising amount of dosh.

With modern environmental concerns, it's not like the old days where a factory would just shut it's doors, sell the equipment, and leave it sit there vacant to rot. You'd find they'd be required to strip it to the last nut and bolt, clean up any environmentally questionable stuff, and do all sorts of time and money intensive work to the sites.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Just because you have a bad experience...doesn't mean all falcons are dodgy. My family where all Holden fans....me and my bro both grew up buying falcons. If you actually do some research you'll find commadores have alot more problems. Commadore even has the most recalled and customer complaints model car in aus history and if you don't get my engineering point(aus v8s,sixes,turbos and so on) then you obviously don't want to get it.
And I guarantee there's still a million more falcon taxis then AUDI taxis. I've never even heard of one

Please don't take my comments as a personal attack on your choice of car , or anything else for that matter . You like anyone else are entitled to an opinion , but calling everyone that drives a commodore a loser is a tad rough , when I was in my teens a loser was a wannabe in a jap 4 , and the only Vals were owned by some smooth bugger trying to steal your girl with profits from the family owned fish and chip shop . Nowadays it is rare for those of my era to turn their nose up at a car of any make that has is restored/original especially if it is a aussie car . Whether it be a falcon 500 or e49 charger . I hope for you sake that in 20 years time you and your bro have the same outlook . In days gone by it was rust that was the use by date now it is the mechanicals/electronics . It won't matter if it is a holden or ford everyone will be in the same boat ,and I'm sure that seeing and hearing a nice clubsport in 20 years time will bring a smile to your face .

[XR Martin]

On last night's news they had a report on Holden and were showing footage of the factory shot from a helicopter.

At that point I realised why its going to cost $600m to shut the factory down...
The majority of the roofing material of the plant is that 'Super 6' Asbestos corrugated sheeting.
There were acres of roofing covered in the stuff.

If anyone is looking for a career in SA, id be taking up asbestos removal...

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by fte50

Don't really have to be too far on the right side of thick to realise any product that sells in higher numbers than its competition has more potential for a higher complaints rate etc ..... purely coz there are more.... get it

Really? So they sold a million adventurers did they? because that's the model that has the most recalls/complaints in aus history! Maybe you could look it up yourself....or you could look like and idiot and just bag me!

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

On last night's news they had a report on Holden and were showing footage of the factory shot from a helicopter.

At that point I realised why its going to cost $600m to shut the factory down...
The majority of the roofing material of the plant is that 'Super 6' Asbestos corrugated sheeting.
There were acres of roofing covered in the stuff.

If anyone is looking for a career in SA, id be taking up asbestos removal...

It's looking more and more likely it will shut. Holden hasn't confirmed the model line ups yet.....and the export is way below what they promised to get the funding in the first place. Looks like they're trying to squeeze whatever they can outa the govco before they turn and blame then at the last minute...and shut down.
Holden commadore is moving to 70% imported parts too. It'll then be on par with the 70% Cruize! That's crazy.

[XR Martin]

I did a quick calc of the roof sheeting at Holden using Google maps, theres atleast 4 acres of the stuff.

In comparison, the Ford Geelong plant looks like it has about 1/4 acre of the stuff
Doesnt appear to be any at Broadmeadows.

4 acres would have to be the largest asbestos removal project in Australia history I suspect?

[fte50]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Really? So they sold a million adventurers did they? because that's the model that has the most recalls/complaints in aus history! Maybe you could look it up yourself....or you could look like and idiot and just bag me!

Actually I think the AU Falcon was on par with, or had more recalls than Adventra 1&2 combined ?? - anyhow post the link to your source, make interesting reading.
And yeah, they were a bucket of crap !