Driver Fatigue - Road Trips - Page 3

FGII-XR6 · 21-10-2012, 10:58 AM

there are some states that aren't inline with the national standards but that is coming. and remember when they cross the border they must comply with thats states fatigue management structure

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT600

WA's fatigue policy is a little different to that.

Day 1: Drive up to 17 hours (includes regular breaks similar to your chart)

Day 2; Ditto above

Day 3:... you can drive up to 14 hours max, HOWEVER the total combination of rest on days 1-3 must not be less than 27 hours in the 72 total.

IE: you can drive 17/17/11 or 17/14/14 but thats gotta add up to 45 hours max.

So it's quite feasible to do Perth to Sydney (distance-wise) in three days with all applicable rest breaks, and that averages out at 1200-1300ish per day

168 hours in a 14 day period is the maximum allowed also from memory

Daniel

flappist · 21-10-2012, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Seeing as you are taking your 2 year old grand daughter, she would be in a routine for meal time...So I would recommend trying to plan some of your stops around those meal times for her. I find sitting enjoying a meal, talking about the miles just travelled and going to travel, is relaxing enough to refresh the mind.

Whilst driving, try and engage both daughters in regular talks about the scenery...This will keep you alert to your surroundings, as well as them enjoying the trip.

Try avoid night driving....this is the time, where people sleep.....Your daughters will be sleeping, therefore making it difficult to keep the above recommendations in place....it'll also allow you time to recouperate from the days travel, being an older person (no disrespect intended either).

At stops, definately have a walk round and stretch....site seeing is a good way to engage all parties concerned and adds to the walking/stretching...

Hope this gives you more ideas...

This really is the post of the thread.

You have a very young child on board whose needs have nothing to do with anything else. They will not care if it takes 2 hours or 2 weeks to get somewhere.

Drive to their schedule and enjoy the time with them as they will not be little for ever.........

FTRXR8 · 21-10-2012, 12:06 PM

Before anything else, always stop if you feel drowsy or tired, wether it be a quick toilet break, fuel stop or even park under a tree and close your eyes for awhile.

Reasonably healthy snacks and water are always refreshing too

I've done some pretty long distances in good time but always find adjusting to the sun rising the worst, I usually stop for 5 or 10 mins and close my eyes and feel fine once I have adjusted.

**CAT600** · 21-10-2012, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

there are some states that aren't inline with the national standards but that is coming. and remember when they cross the border they must comply with thats states fatigue management structure

Unless you are driving a <4500kg vehicle... which is what we are talking about here.

Talking heavy vehicles though, its "been coming" to W.A. for the 22 years ive been around trucks. Fatigue sheets can be fudged and trucks turned around halfway between destinations with the load picked up from the other direction.... the only safe way to do it is put you're blokes on trip money and give them a set run then trust they will value their own lives, there is no other way.

Daniel

my_gxl · 21-10-2012, 02:27 PM

Melbourne to Darwin over 2 days self driving, back in the days of unlimited in the NT. Fatigue seems to not apply at 150km/h.

Also used to do Brisbane to West Wyalong NSW 1200km in 12 hrs. (cruise set at 113km/h)

Brisbane to central coast NSW was about 10hrs.

No long breaks, just snacks, and fuel/wee breaks no longer than 5 mins.

All these things are possible if you are young, single, and used to long distance.

Now that i have a daughter, I can get about 600km per day max. Safer for both of us.

FGII-XR6 · 21-10-2012, 02:34 PM

you must of missed my earlier post where I said HV fatugue management should apply to all drivers.
national fatigue management is in the process of being implememted
anyone who "fudges work diaries" should be banned from driving trucks for life we don't need these cowboys on speed in the industry

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT600

Unless you are driving a <4500kg vehicle... which is what we are talking about here.

Talking heavy vehicles though, its "been coming" to W.A. for the 22 years ive been around trucks. Fatigue sheets can be fudged and trucks turned around halfway between destinations with the load picked up from the other direction.... the only safe way to do it is put you're blokes on trip money and give them a set run then trust they will value their own lives, there is no other way.

Daniel

2011G6E · 21-10-2012, 03:10 PM

Always wondered about that...
* Drive a car, you are told to stop every two hours at most, and not to drive all day long as it's dangerous.
* I drive a train, we get two drivers as it isn't safe to drive for twelve hours straight on your own even though a train isn't exactly going to "swerve off the road"...if it's driver only (your offsider isn't signed off yet) you drop back to 10 hours maximum.

Drive a massive semi, B-double, or triple, and hey, you can suddenly drive for fourteen hours a day in perfect safety...

Doesn't make sense...

Rodge · 21-10-2012, 03:24 PM

Thanks everyone for their replies and now that I've decided to break the 1100 km journey up into four days there won't be any problems with fatigue and i'm really looking forward to it. My daughter and grand-daughter are both extremly cute, no bias here

Just as an aside those HV fatigue guidelines may be okay, (I doubt it), for experienced professional drivers but I have serious reservations that your average city dweller of average age, let alone someone middle aged or older could drive for 17 hours straight in a safe and responsible manner even with regular breaks, and even if they got away with that on day 1 to suggest it could be repeated the second day and then for 14 hours on the third day, sorry I just think that is complete bloody madness.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think the mining industry has had some serious excess influence in setting those "so called" safety standards and i think it would be most unwise for your average city dweller to see this standard as any sort of safety benchmark.

Anyway don't want this thread to turn into a political football regarding the mining or any other industry but what I said is spomething I feel needs to be said in the interests of forum members safety..

**CAT600** · 21-10-2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

you must of missed my earlier post where I said HV fatugue management should apply to all drivers.
national fatigue management is in the process of being implememted
anyone who "fudges work diaries" should be banned from driving trucks for life we don't need these cowboys on speed in the industry

Agree 100%, hence why our company implements a system that puts no onus on blokes to "go hard".... they do 5 1/2 days and if that means only one trip to Karratha and a bit of local when they get home so be it.

I didnt miss your post, I merely showed you what other parts of Australia allow.... 45 hours in 72 is very different to what you posted and is still very realistic when travelling roads such as those found in WA and SA. In years gone by old timers with 280hp Macks were sawing away at the gearstick going to Darwin with no aircon and no hope of averaging more than about 70km/hr..... If we cant do 45 hours in three days pulling triples up north in 80-90km/hr hard pulling engines and aircon you want to give it away

As for National Fatigue... they'll never agree its too vast a driving conditions. My old man went to a conference hosted by NTI about national fatigue standards back in the 90's.... that's well over 12 years ago and i'll believe it when I see it.

The relevance of HV in here is low anyway... driving at night with three trailers through bull country wears out eyes long before a bloke in a car with cruise control and passengers

Daniel

**CAT600** · 21-10-2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

Thanks everyone for their replies and now that I've decided to break the 1100 km journey up into four days there won't be any problems with fatigue and i'm really looking forward to it. My daughter and grand-daughter are both extremly cute, no bias here

Just as an aside those HV fatigue guidelines may be okay, (I doubt it), for experienced professional drivers but I have serious reservations that your average city dweller of average age, let alone someone middle aged or older could drive for 17 hours straight in a safe and responsible manner even with regular breaks, and even if they got away with that on day 1 to suggest it could be repeated the second day and then for 14 hours on the third day, sorry I just think that is complete bloody madness.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think the mining industry has had some serious excess influence in setting those "so called" safety standards and i think it would be most unwise for your average city dweller to see this standard as any sort of safety benchmark.

Is anyone else seeing profit being put before safety here....

Im glad you've elected to do 275km per day... should make for a scenic trip.... at that rate it would take 12 days to get from Perth to Melbourne.... mate you wouldnt survive it, but keep those rose-coloured glasses on because they'll keep the sun out of your eyes when you are standing on the kerb watching the traffic go by.

Uhh... we're doing less hours in the transport industry than ever, with the least % profit and the most powerful prime mover combinations.... blame the mining companies for squeezing contractors down on price before you mention the P word towards secondary contractors/hauliers/owner-operators.

You've got no idea so keep out that subject my friend.

EDIT:... and on the subject of 17 hours, I clearly wrote 17/17/11 or 17/14/14... and that is a MAXIMUM that you can legally do, if guys do less then you cant stop them... you want to talk madness?.... how about the 10km/hr buffer between cars and trucks that means you have a 10/krms overtaking potential when some combinations are 53.5m long, so legally overtaking at that rate means you will be alongside a triple road train for around 30 seconds.

30 seconds, next to 120,000kgs of truck and trailer?

And idiot grey nomads that can only manage 80-90km/hr in unregulated weight caravans towed by underpowered vehicles?... do you know how many accidents are caused by these guys involving heavy vehicles, 60-odd year old retirees doing stupid things like turning around in the middle of the road and pulling out of parking bays up hills with no idea whats coming.

Rodge, you dont know what transport involves, the conditions the guys work in or the level of ability they possess... do not presume to judge.

Daniel

Rodge · 21-10-2012, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Suppose your planning a road trip with your family and don't want driver fatigue to be a factor or for the family to be too bored with spending too much time on the road and want to allow plenty of time for sight-seeing, relaxing and general rejunvination.

What's a comfortable distance per day, 300 km's, 400, 500 or some other number ?

The question posed in my original post which formed the core context of this thread. For reasons best known to themselves, (that I simply can't be bothered debating) some people have dragged this off in a different direction. I guess that was inevitable given the size of Australia and the title of the thread, (shrugs shoulders)
What's surprised me the most in this thread is what people consider to be within safety standards, a real eye opener. I really hope Kiwi Truckies have better safety standards, (enough said).

JC · 21-10-2012, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallasv8

I usually do a 1000 a day no problems. I do stop a lot and have little walks and buy an iced coffee here and there.
I personally believe a lot of road accidents could be prevented by having 2 lanes each way or split lanes on all major highways.

This is good theory, but then tell all the people involved in accidents on the 3 (and sometimes 4) lane F3......

pottery beige · 21-10-2012, 04:33 PM

im more concerned sharing the roads with mouthbreathers with no idea how to manage fatigue than professional truck drivers...

**Whoosha** · 21-10-2012, 05:04 PM

Well not usually getting in on these types of debates because of the obvious experts jump in with no real idea

Well here goes having been in the road transport industry for 38 years I have a few ideas good or bad I have been hooked up to Computers and cameras ext by university dudes, road safety experts ext. both with the hope of monitoring both vechical and driver with their gear for a 3 week period over seeing both local and line haul operations The findings over 4 drivers were varied to say the least . Fatigue hits every body differently from "professional" drivers to day trippers . The best they could come up with is at the first signs of fatigue rather than push through, be it 2.3. 4. hours from home or 10min get out and change the environment either by a short walk. drink. stretch. or just plain change of drivers. you can only allow for the best case scenario but identify the worst case, for me some days its the full 6 hour BFM allowance others it could be a 5 min break every hour or so , Bottom line is if you holidaying with the family give your self heaps of time with no pressure , stop ware and when ever you fell the need Be aware of the traffic and conditions around you..

kevino · 21-10-2012, 05:31 PM

Those sorts of work hours must lead to marriage breakups and health issues.

The human body is not designed to remain seated for 15 hours a day.

Hello to major health issues later in life.

Excess weight due to lack of exercise, diabetes, cholesterol, high blodd pressure etc etc etc.

Those hours are designed to suit employer considerations not employee considerations.

How many GEN Y are working these hours?

MAGPIE · 21-10-2012, 05:42 PM

At the end of the day transport industry guidelines on fatigue management from any country are irrelevant to this discussion.

Us as private vehicle users are not governed by any fatigue regulations so we all have a personal responsibility to do the right thing.

On occasions I do long distance (1000km+.... yes we all know thats just a squirt around the block in Oz) drives without stops (Ferry crossing excepted) but I only do so if I feel capable, and I do a range of things to mitigate the fatigue, from putting the windows down even in sub zero conditions to drinking coffee and V's. Apparently some expert has decided for me that it actually doesn't work, but that's another story.

The single most important consideration is that you finish the drive at the desired destination alive and well.

I'd rather arrive eight hours late due to stopping at a motel if I felt I needed to.

**CAT600** · 21-10-2012, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

They used to it because you want them to be and its strongly to your commercial advantage that they are

You want the toys and are happy to take maximum advantage of the lax safety standards to ensure your sandpit is full of the best toys. Be honest with yourself for once in your life FFS !!! Glad I don't drive on WA roads much. Now I really am done.

Baseless, uncalled for and unacceptable.

You know nothing of me, my history or what hard work I have put into a trucking company... my staff loved having me there and many begged me to stay, my views are actually quite unbiased on this issue as safe work and a quality way of life are the most important thing IMO

I expect a written apology Rodge, I am not joking.

Daniel

2011G6E · 21-10-2012, 06:48 PM

The main thing is that there are three groups of drivers...
First are the majority of drivers who thankfully know thier limits, pull over when tired or change drivers, and don't push on for much longer distances than they can handle in a day. I'd put myself in this group...I have no interest in going on a trip and trying to do 1300km in a day. If it's the wife and myself, we might try it, swapping drivers every couple of hours and having a kip now and then in the passenger seat.

Second are "professional drivers". They seem to have their driving organised, and can do long hours through, one would hope, proper fatigue management strategies. However, in this group is a sub-group of "the bad apples"...truckies who use pills or other stimulants to do stupid things with illegally modified trucks. However, there is at least legislation to try and control this, and the good guys will hopefully pull them into line or dob them in for giving the rest a bad name.

Third is the most dangerous group.
This is the "occasional long distance driver"...the driver who lives in the city and thinks an hour is a long drive, who never ventures out into the great beyond more than once or twice a year to visit family or go to some distant destination. The dangerous bit is that they will have a short period to do it in, and will try to drive too long, either not knowing or not caring about the dangers of fatigue. They are the real danger on the road, and they are hard to control...we usually don't find out about them until you see a pile up on the side of the road or a shocking news item on the TV that night.

Perception of distance is another point.
To an experienced long distance truck driver, a thousand kilometers might be a short run.
When we lived in Bundaberg, if you had said "I'm just going to go for a quick drive down to Maryborough (an hour away) or Gympie (two hours away) to visit some shops" I'd have thought you were mad.
Out here, we will think nothing now of "nipping over to Emerald" an hour away or "let's head down to Rockhampton and have a look at some shops" two hours away. It's become "normal" to us and no big thing.

The hardest thing to do is to somehow catch and control the drivers who have no idea of fatigue...what it is, how to recognise it, and how to manage it...and who do not think before setting out on a long trip.

I don't know what the answer is, but there must be one somewhere.

**GasoLane** · 21-10-2012, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Always wondered about that...
* Drive a car, you are told to stop every two hours at most, and not to drive all day long as it's dangerous.
* I drive a train, we get two drivers as it isn't safe to drive for twelve hours straight on your own even though a train isn't exactly going to "swerve off the road"...if it's driver only (your offsider isn't signed off yet) you drop back to 10 hours maximum.

Drive a massive semi, B-double, or triple, and hey, you can suddenly drive for fourteen hours a day in perfect safety...

Doesn't make sense...

You get two drivers because the Railways always had a better union than road transport. Anyway, you need the spare driver to nick back and make the coffee because you cant exactly pull into a roadhouse

4stanger · 21-10-2012, 06:52 PM

Some people need to take some deep breaths and relax & take time to think before posting again!
Moderators Please.

gtxb67 · 21-10-2012, 06:54 PM

people can be put into 2 groups

those who judge un-necessarily with no actual experience in the field they are judging
and those who don't judge un-necessarily and worry about what they can control

**Raptor** · 21-10-2012, 06:56 PM

Enough already!

**russellw** · 22-10-2012, 08:56 PM

I have reopened this - can we please keep the debate polite.

Cheers
Russ

b2tf · 22-10-2012, 09:05 PM

Damn microwave took too long to cook the popcorn. Missed the whole thing

new2ford · 22-10-2012, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b2tf

Damn microwave took too long to cook the popcorn. Missed the whole thing

Me too! LOL at the thick wads of deleted posts, I can't imagine what on earth could be acrimonious about this topic. Whats this? Road rage on AFF

Itsme · 22-10-2012, 09:48 PM

I got fatigued participating in this debate, any how some interesting perceptions among the members here on how they interpret what is acceptable driving hours behind the wheel and I now know why there is some horrendous accidents on our roads.

Franco Cozzo · 22-10-2012, 09:56 PM

The furthest I've ever driven in one hit was 400km, I was on my Ls and in my Fiesta and it was booked in for the 3000km service, so me and the old man went out and went for a long drive to bring it from 2600km to 3000 lol.

I was fine then, but there is this one particular spot on the way home from work, no fail every day when I get to that point I feel really tired for some reason and its only a 55km trip, then I'm good afterwards.

I don't know if its from just watching trees and open fields slowly pass by being bored or theres nothing good on the radio, you know that time when you quickly switch between the 20 presets on your radio trying to find the one radio station playing music instead of people talking or news. Its always in 15 or 30 minute intervals everyone starts playing ads and traffic updates.

Or if its Gold 104.3FM, Brig and Leemo just talk about crap for an hour and play 2 crap songs.

Rodge · 22-10-2012, 10:10 PM

I am very passionate about this issue for a number of reasons.

1. I was involved in a serious crash many years ago where the other driver was fatigued and fell asleep hitting my car
and was very fortunate to avoid serious injury.

2. A number of my friends over the years have been seriously injured due to being victims of driver fatigue
accidents.

3. I am honest enough to admit when I was much younger I embarked upon many road trips in which I very nearly
fell asleep myself. I am probably very fortunate to still be here today. For this reason I am very passionate about
trying to do some good for younger blokes in terms of trying to help them understand the risks to themselves, their
families and other road users. Believe it or not even though I am 50 now I can well remember when I thought I was
invincible and could drive forever without any risk to myself or others.

4. Literally hundreds of people in Australia and New Zealand are either killed or seriously maimed due to accidents
caused by driver fatigue.

The main purpose of this thread was clearly outlined in my original post and after this post I would appreciate it if
this thread could revert to staying relevant to people and their families doing road trips and what's a safe and
comfortable distance for regular car drivers to travel either by themselves or with friends or their family on a road
trip. It was never intended that this would divert off on a tangent to what's relevant to professional drivers.

When I get time I will re-post the information presented by the N.Z. authorities in terms of techniques to combat
driver fatigue as I believe these techniques are hugely relevant to ordinary car drivers planning a long trip. Won't be
getting into hours per shift again in different jurisdictions.

Yesterday as a result of the very high level of passion I feel for this critically important safety issue, after I became
aware of what I perceive to be some outrageous heavy vehicle operational fatigue guidelines I made some comments
in respect of CAT600 previous involvement in the Transport industry in WA that are regretted.
I accept that notwithstanding whether these regulations are safe or otherwise neither CAT600 nor his family or their
Transport company are responsible for setting heavy vehicle operational standards in Western Australia. I accept
that neither he or his family have set out to exploit workers or the regulations themselves for their pecuniary
advantage and their sole requirement is to work within the legal framework of those regulations themselves which I
am sure they have done. Any offence caused by my comment(s) is regretted.

That said I am very strongly of the view that it is extremly unwise for anyone on here, (as a regular car driver as
opposed to a professional heavy vehicle driver) to consider driving their car for seventeen hours a day on back to
back days, with or without appropriate rest breaks. Considering that this would probably include significant night
time driving I am very firmly of the view that it is highly likely that the average person driving their car in this
manner may pose a very grave risk to themselves, their passengers and perhaps more importantly to other road users.
I would strongly urge anyone contemplating this sort of road trip to think again.

I am also aware of a study, (will try and reference a link if I can find it) that all things being equal drivers are six
times more likely to have an accident at night for a given distance travelled than during the day.

As mentioned I would appreciate it if this thread could get back on the track of what's relevant for ordinary car
drivers planning a road trip either by themselves or with their friends or family. Methods of managing and
combatting driver fatigue should be of interest to all those considering a long road trip. (Keyboard fatigue now so will
retire for the evening).

**CAT600** · 22-10-2012, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trublu

I got fatigued participating in this debate, any how some interesting perceptions among the members here on how they interpret what is acceptable driving hours behind the wheel and I now know why there is some horrendous accidents on our roads.

Its funny how people automatically assume that state regulations that allow a maximum of 45 hours driving in a 72 hour period translate to horrendous accidents.

The way the average pans out its 12 hours a day maximum over 2 weeks... I do that as a minimum with no aircon in 40+ degree heat in summer, driving a truck with aircon and audiobooks to keep you company makes the driving side go easier and as I have stated now several times, most drivers arent sitting in the truck for all that time they are out and about doing local, loading and unloading etc.

Remember that truck drivers in this industry do it day in and out and their bodies are a little differently acclimatised than the average person.

In years gone by, when my old man had 25 trucks in with Centurion Transport over here, we used to employ teams upon teams of Kiwis who would come over here and work for 2-3 years, do heaps of kilometers (they were on km rate back then and used to rack up so many kms we had to order them to come home or the trucks wouldnt get serviced properly) make a heap of money and go home relatively wealthy... never any complaints from them so the perception has changed more than peoples actual abilities.

This thread was never about comparing "us" to "them".... we are not conditioned like truck drivers and my initital reply on the HV fatigue subject was to show what expansive states like WA allow... its a system that has worked for years and we have very few fatalities up north, when a truck occasionally tips over 90% of the time there is a blown steer tyre under the front axle.

If anyone thinks that people will drive until they run off the road due to cohersion from an employer in an industry as fickle as Transport, then you are as stupid and dull witted as what you imply they must be.

Nobody drive's into a grave, when you are tired you stop and that's it.

Daniel

**CAT600** · 22-10-2012, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

Yesterday as a result of the very high level of passion I feel for this critically important safety issue, after I became
aware of what I perceive to be some outrageous heavy vehicle operational fatigue guidelines I made some comments
in respect of CAT600 previous involvement in the Transport industry in WA that are regretted.
I accept that notwithstanding whether these regulations are safe or otherwise neither CAT600 nor his family or their
Transport company are responsible for setting heavy vehicle operational standards in Western Australia. I accept
that neither he or his family have set out to exploit workers or the regulations themselves for their pecuniary
advantage and their sole requirement is to work within the legal framework of those regulations themselves which I
am sure they have done. Any offence caused by my comment(s) is regretted.

If that is an apology Rodge then I am the King of England.

Anything highlighted in bold is an attempt to twist words... and there is no sincerity in your "regretted" phrase at the end.... sounds like a lawyer writing a watertight contract.

I havent threatened to sue you for defamation (which I couldnt legally do being where you live)
I havent PM'ed and abused you... I requested an apology and reported your posts.

3 posts, each clearly spelt out that me and my family had exploited staff with draconian management for our own gain... in doing this you (also thereby condemning legal Western Australian fatigue policy and stating that I had filled up my "sandbox" with the best toys when I:

Do not have a house,
Live in a shed,
Am not married or have kids at 33,
Everything I have on this earth rolls on 4 wheels and
Work offshore making excellent money, havent even worked for the family for 3 years and 3 of the 4 cars I own were effectively funded by my current job.

Not that I have to share that with you... but to presume judgement on me that my family and I neglected safety to exploit staff for financial gain?

And you say:

neither he or his family have set out to exploit workers
whether these regulations are safe or otherwise
Any offence caused by my comment(s) is regretted.

You are man enough to say all that stuff, but not man enough to apologise.

Gutless.

Daniel