Falcon doomed from 2010

[jabba]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Toyota has appealed to people who have not scratched the real surface of environmental issues and sounds like we have one already with the Toyota Prius and it's nickel-laden battery.

I am sure that if you had a front-page article with this "dead zone" as a direct consequence of supplying the Prius with power, I think you may find a few people jumping off the "Green Car" bandwagon.

I will not consider an electric car as I see them as a vehicle of gesture rather than solution.

If humans really wanted to save the world, we'd destroy ourselves as we are the greatest environmental threat. We de-forest areas, render species extinct everyday, pollute, contaminate and destroy without regret. It is only when things become bad that we take action.

The reality is cars are not designed to be green. They are a crude yet effective means of transport.
They will continue to pollute in their own way for a long time. There are other ways to reduce emissions, like turning off your TV/stereo/radio/lights/anything electric when you aren't using it.

I'd rather drive a Falcon that polutes, than the romantic Prius or Electric-Camry, which could be replicated by putting a motor on my fridge and stapling a matress to.

I don't think you are following the thread, and the main reason people are jumping ship from petrol to electric... Guess what, it aint to save the world.
It's to save themselves from the oil companies..

[slickzb]

I have a idea,instead of buying a hybrid,spend your money moving to the middle east and take your car with you.You can drive as far as you like when you pay stuff all for petrol.Settle in and pay I think its 10 cents a litre.Just an idea guys.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by flappist

Unfortunately this will not work.

The ONLY reason that LPG is cheaper is it has less tax/excise.

The more cars that run on LPG the less that run on petrol/diesel.
The less petrol/diesel, the less tax income for the greedy grubs.
Solution: Increase tax on LPG to make up the difference so LPG goes up.

Anyone who thinks that the greedy grubs will do ANYTHING that reduces their income is living in lala land.....

The current excise on petrol and diesel is 38.5cpl.

The current price gap between perol and LPG is about 90cpl.

LPG becomes subject to excise from 1 July 2011, at 2.5cpl. It then increases by 2.5cpl each year until 2015, when it's capped at 12.5cpl.

I can't imagine what we will be paying for petrol in 2015, but I very doubt 12.5cpl will change the LPG/petrol economics much.

[jabba]

Originally Posted by Abacus

It opens the old hoary chestnut though, what's a more viable fuel for cars, diesel or LPG?

LPG is always going to be a fraction the price of diesel. Even when you factor in diesel's better economy an LPG car is about 35% less expensive to fuel up, km for km.

True...

The only reason you would by a diesel today is for towing or if you like your off road 4x4 adventures... OR if you can make you own Bio Biodiesel

LPG is great for small vehicles, and it is cheap.. Butt very, very soon the Fed Government is going to start the introduction of excise on LPG... It will be introduced gradually until the full .38c ltr is in place. Oh and the states will probably hit you with GST on the excise also

[rodderz]

If we all buy electric's, can we mod them to do this?
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/W...8&v=2a19e60130

[JACK250]

I had enough of all this doom and gloom! Things change, new solutions come, things work themselves out... I must say that sounds a bit naive as I'm typing it but seriously! Too much stressing over it all

[ieatsports_cars]

look put it this way ! if they bring this hybrid tec out the fuel may come down because there will be less demand for fuel ! if that makes cent plus if holden brigs it out in 2010 or after it would be a bit rushed so more recalls ! and all what toyota has to do is take the engine out of the prius and put it in the camry and boost the power of the camry a little more ?? i guess that makes cents

[SeXC]

Originally Posted by Abacus

The current excise on petrol and diesel is 38.5cpl.

The current price gap between perol and LPG is about 90cpl.

LPG becomes subject to excise from 1 July 2011, at 2.5cpl. It then increases by 2.5cpl each year until 2015, when it's capped at 12.5cpl.

I can't imagine what we will be paying for petrol in 2015, but I very doubt 12.5cpl will change the LPG/petrol economics much.

Agreed. What i still dont understand is why no car companies have touched on diesel-electric.

No, im not talking about a diesel hybrid, diesel-electric is when you use a smallish, (say 1.5-2L) diesel to run only an electric generator, this generator then powers electric motors on the hub of the wheels, you can have two or four or six wheels powered or more, however many you like.

The diesel is constantly working, but at idle and will consume bugger all fuel by comparison to a similarly powered conventional car with a few extra benefits,

1 Ballistic torque from electric motors, you might not be able to do 200kms per hour, but you will have more torque,

2 No need for a drivetrain, therefore saving a bucket load of weight, servicing of the drivetrain, clutches, oils etc. Also with a lack of gearbox, you also have perfect linear acceleration and torque curves, which could be considered better for motorsport and or towing practices,

3 More controllable brakes, as the car is braked by the electric motors themselves if power at all fours,


I dont know why it hasnt been more widely thought of, Mitsubishi were talking about releasing an evo last year i think with a 2.0l turbo petrol motor so that it could race in wrc and this is the way some of the extremely large haul paks work too,

but thats my 2c.

[XR6_190]

Where do I start?
Firstly, Hybrids are not a proper solution, they are too expensive to buy and at the same time, their lives are not very long at all (about 10-15 years) Meaning once the 'Honeymoon' is over, and the general public realise this the depreciation factor will hit them VERY hard, meaning not only are they more expensive to buy, but they will also be worth less when it comes time to sell/ upgrade. So the fuel cost savings just aren't realistic, especially for people who only plan on keeping the car for less than 5 years.
Secondly, Plug in Hybrids/ Electric vehicles. They are a great thing in countries that don't rely heavily on Fossil fuels, But Australia definitely isn't one of those countries. About 90% of our electricity comes from either Gas or more commonly coal.
Now fair enough a lot of people don't really care where their electricity comes from but when they start to plug in their cars at home they will realize that it too is not really a cheap prospect when their power bills skyrocket, so sure they are saving a bucket at the Pump, but are paying for it with their electricity bills. Add that to the fact that the amount of Electricity being sucked out of the grid will grow, so the Power companies will lift their rates, JUST LIKE THE OIL COMPANIES. (sorry to yell) Then their is the hopeless range, 65 Km is nowhere near good enough, a lot of people have 80 Km round trips to work and back.
Thirdly, The Ford Motor Company (US) ARE planning to release a Hybrid version of the US market Fusion, either this year or next year. which you should all know is about the same size as Falcon. Whose to say Ford OZ are not planning on modifying that drivetrain for Falcon? I could quite possibly see this being realised at the same time as Ford put in the V6, Diesel engine, and the SVI LPG, giving the consumer a smorgasboard of alternatives.

[XR6_190]

Fourthly, We should all remember, Hybrids are not the best solution BY FAR. at the moment most of the large car manufacturers (Including, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Daimler Benz, VW, BMW, Toyota, but most of all Honda) are developing Hydrogen cars. Honda already have a Hydrogen car on the market in Califronia (I think it is called FCX Clarity) and the German government run a fleet of Hydrogen powered 7 series cars (Hydrogen 7), but this is where the Hydrogen revolution will start. Yes it is a long road, with Infrastructure issues and such, but this is a clean and viable long term decision.
Another viable short term solution that is widely under acknowledged is Biodiesel. It is cheap, relatively clean, and relatively easy to make. This also though like with Hyrdrogen will initially suffer Infrustructure issues, but this is where the government need to step up to the plate.

So basically, no I don't think it is the end of Falcon, but we might be seeing the end of the Petrol only Falcon (and Commodore for that matter).

[DoreSlamR]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

Fourthly, We should all remember, Hybrids are not the best solution BY FAR. at the moment most of the large car manufacturers (Including, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Daimler Benz, VW, BMW, Toyota, but most of all Honda) are developing Hydrogen cars. Honda already have a Hydrogen car on the market in Califronia (I think it is called FCX Clarity) and the German government run a fleet of Hydrogen powered 7 series cars (Hydrogen 7), but this is where the Hydrogen revolution will start. Yes it is a long road, with Infrastructure issues and such, but this is a clean and viable long term decision.
Another viable short term solution that is widely under acknowledged is Biodiesel. It is cheap, relatively clean, and relatively easy to make. This also though like with Hyrdrogen will initially suffer Infrustructure issues, but this is where the government need to step up to the plate.

So basically, no I don't think it is the end of Falcon, but we might be seeing the end of the Petrol only Falcon (and Commodore for that matter).

Agree 100%
Read my post on page 2 regarding Bio-diesel, the infrastructure is there already in some places.

[TurboUteris]

I hope someone has mentioned that fact that Ford already offer a straight LPG Falcon,albiet older technology but none the less.

[Jayden]

20 bucks says that when GM unveils the production volt its looks will be dumbed down too far. I want to be wrong, I dont want to look at that styling applied to a generic white sedan with the factory lift kit.

Imagine it in black with a supercharger sticking out the top and fat tyres. An electric supercharger, bound to somehow happen. no cool car should have a bragable MPG rating unless is laughably low.

[Grunter]

The only problem I see with this deal is that fact that Toyota are going to build and sell the hybrid Camry, irrespective of the $70m that the government has gifted them.

If they didn't expect it, why offer it?

[SirHenry]

Sorry if I'm going off topic here ...

If the car companies and govt were serious about the environment and helping people, they would do something similar to Brazil and switch to higher ethanol content and design cars that can handle E85 enmass. I don't think we will see it happen because if the whole world all got behind this it put the balance of world economic power right on its head. Think about it ethanol comes from sugarcane amongst other things, Bangladesh, Australia, Brazil and all the other sugar growing nations would become OPEC.

Just my 2 cents worth, opinions are like bottoms though everyone has one.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Abacus

The current excise on petrol and diesel is 38.5cpl.

The current price gap between perol and LPG is about 90cpl.

LPG becomes subject to excise from 1 July 2011, at 2.5cpl. It then increases by 2.5cpl each year until 2015, when it's capped at 12.5cpl.

I can't imagine what we will be paying for petrol in 2015, but I very doubt 12.5cpl will change the LPG/petrol economics much.

As I have said before:

There will NOT be a GST.
No child will be living in poverty by 1990.
It is L A W law.
My government will not raise taxes.

All policies and promises are void the moment the situation changes.

They will not reduce their income and will just move the taxes accordingly. If LPG replaces Petrol as the fuel of choice, and there is only one reason anyone would do it (other than zealots who will have a million reasons) and that is price they will increase tax/excise to compensate for the shortfall. LPG will be a victim of its own success.
Diesel used to be half the price of petrol, now it is dearer. I wonder why?

[GK]

Originally Posted by XYGTHO

To be honest i'm very worried what will happen in years to come. Will i still be able to drive the XY? :togo:

Come on now, why all the gloom and doom? Of course you'll still be able to drive it. You'll just need to sit it on the charger overnight first! LOL!

GK

[Grunter]

Toyota Yesterday...

In announcing the decision in Nagoya, Japan, the car giant's president, Katsuaki Watanabe, said Toyota "only recently" heard it would receive a $35 million subsidy from the Australian government's Green Car Fund.

"So we are not sure how we will use it," Mr Watanabe said.

Toyota Today...

"Toyota's decision to build a hybrid Camry in Australia was based on various business considerations.

"However, the governments' support was a critical factor in securing local production."

Must have been some frantic phones calls from the government offices to Toyota between those two statements.

[tapeworm]

Originally Posted by Abacus

Because it doesn't liquify as easily as LPG. It's stored as compressed gas (hence the "C" in CNG), rather than as a liquid (the "L" in LPG), and takes up a lot of storage volume.

You need bloody big storage tanks to take you not very far. It's OK for busses and the like that can have racks of tanks along their roofs, but it's not practicable for cars.

It takes ages to fill the tanks, also.

I think this is the way too, from what I understand, gas injection looses sweet F/A power and economy over petrol and is fairly cheap. It would do well IMHO

[Bossxr8]

Ford have said they will not build hybrids here, they are focussing on LPG technology and diesel. That must mean injected LPG should be a goer for the V6. Is a way smarter solution than hybrid, saves way more money in running costs than a hybrid ever could.

Hyundai are using LPG Hybrids in Korea, and are evaluating them for sale here. Ford should try that, it would be so cheap to run.

[XRtowcar]

Honda have a CNG Civic that comes with a pump that you fit into your home gas supply.
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/
Can be done....

[buickman]

Originally Posted by TurboUteris

I hope someone has mentioned that fact that Ford already offer a straight LPG Falcon,albiet older technology but none the less.

Yes and that is the way I would go to own and drive a big car if for some reason I could not afford to run a petrol driven 1.

But back in the 70's there was a fuel embargo and people were ditching gas guzzlers but did that stop people buying petrol driven cars no only smaller cars .
In fact a lot a different ideas were about to run cars on alternative fuels back then including a 200mph steam powered car that was at the Sydney motor show.
It failed of course and GM in America had a plug in Electric cars that they crushed in the end.

A few pics of the steam powered car called the The Gvang

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

Honda have a CNG Civic that comes with a pump that you fit into your home gas supply.
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/
Can be done....

Yes it can be done. It's done a bit in the US:

Phill

Trouble is it takes 3-4 hours to fill the tank for about 140-160km of driving. It's just not practical for most would-be users here.

[bodes-sh]

Originally Posted by Abacus

Yes it can be done. It's done a bit in the US:

Phill

Trouble is it takes 3-4 hours to fill the tank for about 140-160km of driving. It's just not practical for most would-be users here.

according to that site, overnight for a compact car, doesn't mention what size tank, but 160km in a compact...something like a fiesta i would think, be lucky to get 100km from a falcon in that case...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Grunter

Toyota Yesterday...

Toyota Today...


Must have been some frantic phones calls from the government offices to Toyota between those two statements.

Agreed. More tokenistic nonsense from our Prius driving PM, more fascination with all things asian for the sake of anything Australian. Unbelievable how they now means test solar panels and categorise any family earning over 100k rich yet in the same week they give a multi trillion dollar company which is one of the only profitable ones in the world a grant for something they had already done.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by flappist

As I have said before:

There will NOT be a GST.
No child will be living in poverty by 1990.
It is L A W law.
My government will not raise taxes.

All policies and promises are void the moment the situation changes.

They will not reduce their income and will just move the taxes accordingly. If LPG replaces Petrol as the fuel of choice, and there is only one reason anyone would do it (other than zealots who will have a million reasons) and that is price they will increase tax/excise to compensate for the shortfall. LPG will be a victim of its own success.
Diesel used to be half the price of petrol, now it is dearer. I wonder why?

Too right.
If ford brought out an injected LPG sedan and Holden followed suit, you can bet your *** that the feds would increase the excise on lpg to 40c per litre, just because they are losing too much and the states are only getting 8cpl GST as opposed to the 16cpl they are getting now.
Lets face it, the government and especially the ATO all subscribe to the same motto; "We've got what it takes to take what you've got".

[Yaw]

It is not so much that Ford do not have the capability of a hybrid, they have in the US from 2005 had a Hybrid Escape. The problem is having a trained dealer network as not all Ford Dealerships over there can care for this car. I imagine only larger Toyota dealerships can care for thier hybrids at the moment.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Grunter

Toyota Yesterday...

Toyota Today...


Must have been some frantic phones calls from the government offices to Toyota between those two statements.

Yep and today the spin doctors are still at work (Daily news wire) Assuring us that this decision was based solely on local and federal governments support

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by ltd

Agreed. More tokenistic nonsense from our Prius driving PM, more fascination with all things asian for the sake of anything Australian. Unbelievable how they now means test solar panels and categorise any family earning over 100k rich yet in the same week they give a multi trillion dollar company which is one of the only profitable ones in the world a grant for something they had already done.

I am a Labor voter and I believe they are going about this the wrong way.

A hybrid Camry is going to be a spectacular failure unless it costs the same as a regular Camry. Somebody feeling the squeeze from petrol prices isn't about to fork out for a 50k toy.

The Howard Government also has to show for 11 years of complacency. In fact since Howard came to power the Commodore has in fact got thirstier and I haven't seen the "Eco-Commodore" turn into a production reality. All the hundreds of millions poured into the local industry over the years and it's still on shaky ground.

[Grunter]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I am a Labor voter and I believe they are going about this the wrong way.

Labor, Liberal, Jedi Knight, doesn't matter, it's a poor government decision with no additional benefit, over what was already going to happen, to the people that are funding the $70m.

Originally Posted by sleekism

A hybrid Camry is going to be a spectacular failure unless it costs the same as a regular Camry. Somebody feeling the squeeze from petrol prices isn't about to fork out for a 50k toy.

Agree. Same price and needs to show a similar resale to the petrol model for the fleet buyers to get interested.

Originally Posted by sleekism

The Howard Government also has to show for 11 years of complacency. In fact since Howard came to power the Commodore has in fact got thirstier and I haven't seen the "Eco-Commodore" turn into a production reality. All the hundreds of millions poured into the local industry over the years and it's still on shaky ground.

Your not in a Union are you?? ;) The Liberal Government had nothing to do with any decision by the auto industry to build, or not build, any "Eco/Hybrid" or fuel efficient vehicles, apart from setting out emission targets to be met. The money the Aussie auto industry receives is to keep it alive (due to the cost of building cars here for the market we have) and to keep jobs intact.

If you want to point the finger, look at Joe Public and its previous lack of interest in Hybrid vehicles. The only reason they are getting any kind of interest now is not because of any environmental benefit that we were told was important to our future, but because of the cost of fuel and the direct impact to the hip pocket.