How lucky are we. - Page 3

Blue Oval Mopar Man · 26-06-2007, 02:48 PM

While is see why all these new measures are being put into place, I dont see much changing !

The indiginous people of this country will only see it all as another annoyance forced onto them by the white man! And they will resist this and work out ways around it ! Its all going to be a huge waste of more taxpayer dollars than we are already spending on a people that dont and wont help themselves ! They expect everything given to them , and when its is they want another one and so on and so on !

I dont know what the solution is , but the way they are going about things at the moment , aint going to work !

Scott · 26-06-2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

But everyone must take account of their own actions and in-actions.

Would be nice wouldn't it!

The Monty · 26-06-2007, 03:57 PM

MO, I think you are going way off track. These laws are being introduced to help a wide lot of people. If these laws arent to your liking, what would YOU do to make there current situation better. Apparently sit down momey is bad for them, so take it away. Then they have no grog anyway, and no way to get any help. Stolen generation? Get a grip mate. Maybe we should just give them the whole of Arnhem Land, barricade it off, take all there clothes, grog, homes, moey, schooling, everything, and let them live in the bush.
These laws are the best thing that can be done for these guys, get off JH's back, at least hes trying.

MO · 26-06-2007, 04:22 PM

Stolen generation is what the women are saying.

They're afraid it will happen.

To my way of thinking if you want to help(and I don't disagree with the laws or on jh back)

You have empower them to take control themselves not disempower and get them scared and talking of civil disobedience and hiding in the desert/scrub.

Put yourself in their place your not well educated suddenly theres a heap of coppers and army on your doorstep with talk of compulsory health checks on girls upto 16 and taking other things from you.

Seems to me that little boys can be abused to what about checking them.

How would I have approached it I would take into account their culture and how they decide things as a tribe and I would talk to the tribal elders then let them nut it through.

The real ppl out there don't want the grog or the violence or the abuse but there not empowered to do anything.

Some have setup dry communities and are doing ok.

Like I said I have no prob with the laws etc just the way it is being implemented.

HOON69 · 26-06-2007, 04:33 PM

geez this topic has lasted much longer then the average police thread:
dunno why its any different though,afterall these are the guidelines made by this very forum.

FORDFORUMS RULES ARE:

Quote:

In short, the following things are not permitted:

1. Posts about or containing references to: religion, race, sensitive or controversial subjects.

2. Posts that are (or could reasonably be considered to be): defamatory, threatening, invasive of privacy, or which otherwise violate any law applicable within Australia.

though i do think the goverment and majority of australians support such a decision and rightfully so.

eb_5litre · 26-06-2007, 04:34 PM

And what about the Aboriginals that dont listen to and respect the Elders?

The Monty · 26-06-2007, 05:15 PM

They have been living under the "rule" of the elders for a long time now, and I think there culture has been diminshed enough, so that now, there is no listening to the thoughts of the elder, its just everyone for themselves.
I do understand what you are saying though MO, it does seem heavy, but we've been trying the soft approach for far to long.

Bossxr8 · 26-06-2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

MO, I think you are going way off track. These laws are being introduced to help a wide lot of people. If these laws arent to your liking, what would YOU do to make there current situation better. Apparently sit down momey is bad for them, so take it away. Then they have no grog anyway, and no way to get any help. Stolen generation? Get a grip mate. Maybe we should just give them the whole of Arnhem Land, barricade it off, take all there clothes, grog, homes, moey, schooling, everything, and let them live in the bush.
These laws are the best thing that can be done for these guys, get off JH's back, at least hes trying.

Can you actually help people who don't care and don't want the help. They would have once been a very strong self supported culture, able to survive in very harsh conditions. Now they are just a discrace, to themselves and their ancestors (some, not all). I've seen first hand what the grog does to these people, and taking it away from them is a very good idea. They also need to implement laws that stop people selling booze to them on the sly, because some people will try to take advantage of the situation and supply them booze at a profit. Its probably a lost cause though, but worth trying.

Smoke Pursuit · 26-06-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Sure they are tough measures but if it stops 1 child from being abused it would be well worth it. Its a bit unfair that this effects people who may have done no wrong, but as much as getting on the **** seems like a part of Aussie culture, it is not a nessecity, those who see it as that more than likely have an alcohol problem.

Yeh i think the problem also exists with white australians.

Im sick to death of people that drink too much and get out of control, you only have to go to a big sporting event where alcohol is made available to see the sort crap that goes on... Id hate to see the amount of money that some people spend on grog each week, these same people cant afford to drive a nice car or buy their own home, i wonder why.....

paule11 · 26-06-2007, 06:25 PM

Cutting the booze wont stop kids being harmed probably reduce it . There is a lot of other problems paint sniffing ,petrol sniffing drugs . I know that there was one mob stealing sulphuric acid out of batteries in a Telstra site diluting it then drinking it . Stop all the drugs and then how do you educate people to alter their behaviour when all they have ever experienced is abuse and pain

MO · 26-06-2007, 08:34 PM

I think some of us have assumed incorrectly that it is law well its not yet and as each day passes the proposals are being softened.

Fed Parl is being recalled in winter break to pass what is proposed.

I learnt tonight of a community only a couple of hours away here in Qld that empowered themselves..the women took control and made it a dry comm the violence has been cut drastically the abuse is now zero.

The name of that community.."Cherbourg".

Now the men have asked to be able to form their own group to help backup the women.

I know its a big call but surely if one group can do it then why the hell can't others..I think we just have to give those that want change the empowerment to do so.

MO · 26-06-2007, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb_5litre

And what about the Aboriginals that dont listen to and respect the Elders?

I know what your saying and tribal law can fix that provided we backup the elders.

MO · 26-06-2007, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Can you actually help people who don't care and don't want the help. They would have once been a very strong self supported culture, able to survive in very harsh conditions. Now they are just a discrace, to themselves and their ancestors (some, not all). I've seen first hand what the grog does to these people, and taking it away from them is a very good idea. They also need to implement laws that stop people selling booze to them on the sly, because some people will try to take advantage of the situation and supply them booze at a profit. Its probably a lost cause though, but worth trying.

There are laws to stop grog runners but first you've got to catch them all of OZ is short of cops on the ground. As for the rest of your post spot on.

MO · 26-06-2007, 08:44 PM

OK just to highlight the grog runners profit...i.e. I buy a 4l cask for 15$ and I can sell it on to someone else for between $70to100...not a bad profit .

Someone else said something about a bottle of spirit for $150 very close to the mark they who are addicted will pay whatever its no different to the white drug addiction.

Scott · 26-06-2007, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MO

From now on in The Alice you cannot buy alcohol unless you show your drivers license and then are only allowed to buy one item i.e. 1bottle spirits...or 1 cask of wine or one bottle of wine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MO

I think some of us have assumed incorrectly that it is law well its not yet and as each day passes the proposals are being softened.

Come on MO, you trying to confuse us??

MO · 26-06-2007, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP006

Come on MO, you trying to confuse us??

No mate I just found out today that parl is being recalled to make law for what is already in train.

samftr · 26-06-2007, 09:09 PM

Funny thing is, I was reading the Courier Mail today, and on page 7 it has a story with the title "Booze ban only shifts problem and it says that a lot of these affected people are moving to places like Mareeba, Cairns, Cooktown etc. So it will be interesting to see if the problem will in fact move itself elsewhere.

MO · 26-06-2007, 09:15 PM

A good point and I think it will.

olfella · 26-06-2007, 09:22 PM

MMMmm can of worms is right. I cant see how restricting grog sales can fix any problem. To me is is treating the sympton and not the cause. If someone wants to get pi55ed then they are going to get it - be it petrol sniffing, battery acid or mouth wash. Then how can you lock someone up with the death in custody stuff still hanging around? How can you police laws with no police on the ground? how can you provide any support by name only?? eg medical or community

Not trying to be a smart **** here but I think we need sustainable soloutions rather than band aids...

: and no - I don't know

eb_5litre · 26-06-2007, 09:29 PM

Can we have tribal council and vote people off the island?

MO · 26-06-2007, 09:31 PM

You must be from The Territory to know about mouthwash and coke and large off shelves only small on .

listerine is the big one more % alcohol.

MO · 26-06-2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb_5litre

Can we have tribal council and vote people off the island?

That would be nice but lets try to keep it real...know what your saying.

mrniceguy · 26-06-2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MO

I know what your saying and tribal law can fix that provided we backup the elders.

Personally i think the elders and Aboriginal leaders in general are part of the problem, not the solution. And from what ive heard the application of tribal law isnt some solemn ceremony, its a mob of drunks chasing someone down the street spearing and kicking them.

Only recently there was an Aboriginal leader (Pearson or Dodson, cant remember) saying that the government should expect to continue supporting remote communitys. These communitys have no chance of providing employment, health or any decent sort of infrastructure for the people in them and heres one of their leaders saying its a good thing for the government to continue supporting them! Even young white people in a lot of remote areas are leaving to seek work. And they have all the advantages of education, health and being an integrated part of modern society.

Personally i think JH is on the right track.

mrniceguy · 26-06-2007, 09:54 PM

And as far as the alcohol thing well thats tough luck. Johnny Average having to cut back on his drinking doesnt really rate alongside the issues faced by these aboriginal communitys.

Van D · 26-06-2007, 10:22 PM

I suppose I support.

But I really think it's too little too late sorta thing. I mean, it's great something has been done. But they haven't done that much to fix the problem in the past.. So what, this ban on alco is meant to stop drunks? Doubt it. 1 bottle of spirits per person is still enough for one person to get way out of hand.

Work Horse · 27-06-2007, 12:31 AM

Congratulations MO, can't believe this thread is still open!!!

To anyone worried about political correctness and indigenous Australians IMHO;

Relating personal experiences you have had with individual Aboriginals is not racist, it is a statement of fact.

The belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority is racist, not policticlly correct, and just plain silly by any measure.

If you believe Aboriginals can not be helped because they are Aboriginal, you are part of the problem and need to sit back and let someone else have a go.

I don't pretend to have any special knowledge or experience of "the problem", except to know that is exists, and that it is in everyones interests to do something about it.

Am I sceptical about an "emergency response", from a government after eleven years? And facing possible defeat at the next election?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaa!

What would I do? Back anyone that has some sort of long term plan.

http://www.nt.gov.au/dcm/inquirysaac/

The recommendations warn against Canberra or any of the capitals taking over "the problem". It mentions nothing about the Army and Police being used as they are about to be.
http://www.nt.gov.au/dcm/inquirysaac...endations.pdf/

FPV8U · 27-06-2007, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Very tough measures. Although most of the posters on this forums would know me as a red blooded lefty, after 11 long painfull years of Johnie at the controls, I support these measures. My wife is a special needs teacher here in the Alice. Some of the stories she has to tell are horific. But out in the remote areas that surround the Alice things are even worse. When you have (my wife) a young girl of perhaps 10 years old coming to school still bleeding from her vagina because of a visit from Uncle XXXXX the night before, you simply cannot do anything but support Howards new measures.

I hope that the mods can tolerate what I have just written, but in our own small way, perhaps this will help people understand just how bad it is out here. I have eluded to how things were in past comments and have at times been chastised (SP?) for what I have written. Maybe political correctness has over rided the truth.

If in anyway anyone who reads this thinks that Howard is wrong in doing what is being done, think seriously about the children. And would you tolerate it if they were white????

Cheers all. Good post MO.

I think your comments alone justify the goverments actions, people who do this whether they be Black, White, Yellow or blue make me sick and something must be done.

I was recently told similar storys from my Grandparents who went on a around Australia trip in 2006, they were both disgusted by the treatment of the Childeren and the Animals.

As was said earlier the worst thing they ever did was give anyone money for sitting around, anyone who drives through Morwell and looks near the bus station will know what i mean.

Pat on the back for the govenment for growing a spine and sticking up for what is right.

robbo_yobbo · 27-06-2007, 11:44 AM

No grog, watch the petrol prices skyrocket due to overwhealming demand from those who need a replacement for the alcohol.

MO · 27-06-2007, 09:04 PM

First thanks to the mods for letting it run...second thanks to those who posted in the positive and helped keep the thread open.

schnoods · 27-06-2007, 10:10 PM

When i was working out at Snake bay the other workers used to smuggle in Cartons and bottles in tool boxes. They screwed down the lids but didnt lock it up as it would've looked suspicious.

Saying that none was ever sold to anyone and more or less was there to keep worker morale up.

I think the bans on bulk buying alcohol is a step in the right direction for the situation as too many locals do turn a blind eye muttering "bloody long grassers" too often.