Industrial relations worker legislation (end of an era) your thoughts - Page 3

4.9 EF Futura · 13-10-2005, 06:01 PM

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Consider this I did say in the original thread that there has been no detail put out and they've had close on 10 yrs to have it watertight and still in the peak of their campaign ....no detail.!!!!!!

So you take it upon yourself to go out and start sprouting rumour, innuendo and heresay? Great work! Whilst i do appreciate your 'declaration' of allegiance to the ACTU there is really no need to as your scare tactics are an exact mirror of theirs.

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What are these "real wages" the government keeps crapping on about?

Are they different to regular "wages"...?

XR8ute, this appeared to be agenuine question which deserved a genuine answer instead of the political rhetoric provided by Mr McMaster.

Real wage growth is the difference between total wage growth and inflation. For example, if you get a 5% increase in wages over a 12 month period, and inflation is running at 2% over that period, your "real wage growth" is 3%.

Real wage growth is at the heart of IR reform. Lets us wander down memory lane to a time heralded as the 'good old days of unionism' by many here. Back to the decade of the 80s when the underlying inflation rate was 8%. Or better yet, the 70s when inflation measured by the CPI was over 15% at some points.

So in order to get a 5% increase in real wages, your employer had to increase your wage by 20%. Ouch.

You then need to look at the causes of inflation. Look, I like a payrise as much as the next man.... But when you centrally determine (or bargain on a collective basis) that everyone gets an x% increase without linking this to productivity, you place inflationary pressure on the economy.

It's fairly simple.

Centralised wage systems which do not consider productivity will place inflationary pressure on the economy - which, when considered against real wage growth, erodes the payrises you are getting in the first place.

Ever wonder why inflation is so high under a labour government when centralised wage systems are a part of their philosophy?

AuFairlaneV8 · 13-10-2005, 06:17 PM

I havent had time to look into all these changes yet, but are they going to help salary staff who are working extra hours for no extra money, I know people who are working up to 20 hours extra a week for nothing, I hope this new system will address this issue

vztrt · 13-10-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Real wage growth is the difference between total wage growth and inflation. For example, if you get a 5% increase in wages over a 12 month period, and inflation is running at 2% over that period, your "real wage growth" is 3%.

Real wage growth is at the heart of IR reform. Lets us wander down memory lane to a time heralded as the 'good old days of unionism' by many here.

Wage increases have been made by an independant tribunal and the government cant control their decision. Funny how this tribunal has now been abolished, as the last wage increase was their last.

As the government cannot control something independant it has to get rid of it.

13-10-2005, 07:26 PM

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Originally Posted by John McMaster

My apology for calling you stupid was uncalled for.

no worries + accepted

MO · 13-10-2005, 09:36 PM

4.9 EF Futura..Yes I'm labour thru & thru yet there are many things I have disagreed with that the ACTU have put out there....even my own union used lawyers to intimidate me about 25 yrs ago becuase I did'nt agree with them letting the state firies unions piggy back into Fed award using us...as far as I was concerned at the time they could fight for fed status the same as we did.

If you think my reply to xr8ute was rhetoric....watch this space,because it will happen...how you say.... simple...knockout penalty payments employ more ppl on less to gain production....did'nt work in the time of the Industrial Revolution...did'nt work in the Shearers Strike in Oz when 7 good men were executed for standing up for a fair deal....check out the Tree of Knowledge and the Workers museum at Barcaldine.

If you wish to look to the good old days of unionism might I suggest you look back to the Masons...around the 17 century I think...that is when unions first started.

All pay rises since the 80's have been based on productivity!

I'm curious as to your experience in the world of I.R .would you care to elucidate.

A suggestion you might want to obtain a copy of "Land of Hope" by Gay Scales it was also a mini series on Aunty...it will enlighten you to just what the fair go ppl went through,in OZ.

MO · 13-10-2005, 09:58 PM

To all who are in disagreement with my point of view ....might I ask you to read the thread on this subject started by svo347..in it you will find most of my answers to your critisims(sp) of my views.

Where's greenmachine when you need him.

The MaDDeSTMaN · 13-10-2005, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McMaster

To all who are in disagreement with my point of view ....might I ask you to read the thread on this subject started by svo347..in it you will find most of my answers to your critisims(sp) of my views.

Where's greenmachine when you need him.

Do you mean this thread mate? Workplace reg changes.

MO · 13-10-2005, 10:24 PM

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Originally Posted by The MaDDeSTMaN

Do you mean this thread mate? Workplace reg changes.

Thanks Troy..I still don't know how to link and just had pm from mod..re same..and will not bump again.

At least you have read that thread and know where I'm coming from...I'm glad I'm retired because the fight for a fair deal was hard enough when I was union sec/rep etc but now....well its going to be hell.

parawolf · 13-10-2005, 10:43 PM

Just curious - being a young one in the work place (i'm 27, the next youngest in my field at work is 36) I can see myself being a bit of a target. Though I figure from reading lightly on the matter that if my employer has over 100 full time staff there will be minimal changes - if any... is that right?

Has this sort (scale, method, detail) of Industrial Relations reform gone on anywhere else in the world with a degree of success?

Does it even affect a global employer - I guess my agreement is local - but my job description is global... Any idea what I could read to find out?

billyb35 · 13-10-2005, 10:53 PM

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Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

A struggling business owner will choose the most cost effective option. I've managed projects in the past that were estimated well under budget. Given the choice of Indian software labour at $7.50/hr and local costing me nearly $40/hr its not a hard decision to make. Although I did use a mix of both labour sources. It's commercial reality.

Your choice of concurrent mortgage and dependants is yours, it was not any employers. From your previous example why should the employer be forced to subsidise your lifestyle? Why should the single worker who is prepared to work odd hours etc not achieve reward for his sacrifice?

I'm not suggesting a pure marketplace employment policy, but the cruel reality is, an overly protected uncompetitive workforce will do nothing but force our industry dollars overseas.

There are parents in china and idea working to feed kids and just survive too!! The answer lies somewhere between regressive over-protection of wages & conditions and regressive over-exploitation of workers.

If we had in this country actual unions rather than the political bodies that act under the guise of unionism we would have a much fairer situation all round.

I might be late but here here.

That is exactly the point. At either end of black or white it is a certainty but political point scoring and just sheer scare tactics with those ridiculous ads achieve nothing; especially not clearing up the grey.

I really don't see the problem here with reforms. Someone explain to me what exaclty is going to change?

The MaDDeSTMaN · 13-10-2005, 10:59 PM

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Originally Posted by John McMaster

Thanks Troy..I still don't know how to link and just had pm from mod..re same..and will not bump again.

At least you have read that thread and know where I'm coming from...I'm glad I'm retired because the fight for a fair deal was hard enough when I was union sec/rep etc but now....well its going to be hell.

What I found really fustrating in that other thread was how many times people used the 'bludger' tag, and the lack of understanding shown by some people of what it's like to really be struggling to pay bills, not to mention just how bad some workplaces and bosses are and how difficult it can be to gain employment. Just because I am currently unemployed, it seems some people would be quick to label me lazy or a bludger, yet I'd like to see them if they were in my situation be able to gain employment - it's simply not that easy. I'd love to be working, I'd much prefer it, but even getting to the interview stage is an uphill battle - a FACT many people seem to have lost sight of.

And from what I've seen, read and heard, these new changes are far from a good thing for a lot of people.

13-10-2005, 11:21 PM

I just finished reading that other thread.......some real good comments were made and others were absolute cr*p.
Thats the beauty of the forum type discussion, everyone gets to express their point veiw in what you should be a fair and open manner.
You dont necessarily have to agree with another members opinion, but at the very least, you should respect their it.

I have never met John, but i wouldnt mind having a beer with him as im sure we could have a very lively discussion . I dont agree with most of his posts but i respect his right to express his opinion.
We will have to agree to disagree.

Now John.......about that beer.....

13-10-2005, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The MaDDeSTMaN

What I found really fustrating in that other thread was how many times people used the 'bludger' tag, and the lack of understanding shown by some people of what it's like to really be struggling to pay bills, not to mention just how bad some workplaces and bosses are and how difficult it can be to gain employment. Just because I am currently unemployed, it seems some people would be quick to label me lazy or a bludger, yet I'd like to see them if they were in my situation be able to gain employment - it's simply not that easy. I'd love to be working, I'd much prefer it, but even getting to the interview stage is an uphill battle - a FACT many people seem to have lost sight of.

And from what I've seen, read and heard, these new changes are far from a good thing for a lot of people.

Maddest man,

Do you support an AFL side?

bindi · 14-10-2005, 07:53 AM

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Originally Posted by maglite

I have never met John, but i wouldnt mind having a beer with him as im sure we could have a very lively discussion . I dont agree with most of his posts but i respect his right to express his opinion.
We will have to agree to disagree.

Now John.......about that beer.....

Now THAT has just upped your respect quotient in my eyes. Well said!

Quote:

Originally Posted by The MaDDeSTMaN

Just because I am currently unemployed, it seems some people would be quick to label me lazy or a bludger, yet I'd like to see them if they were in my situation be able to gain employment - it's simply not that easy. I'd love to be working, I'd much prefer it, but even getting to the interview stage is an uphill battle - a FACT many people seem to have lost sight of.

Agreed Troy. People automatically judge you because you are not working. In the past year I have been looking for work and it's bloody hard! I am so unimpressed...

I have been looking for work because even though I am an Aromatherapist and Massage Therapist, I have to get out of the field. I have damaged my arm from the pure physical stress of that job... it's a very difficult way to earn a living. If someone had said to me at the very beginning, "This is a job you can only do for so many hours a week, and your body may let you do it for a limited time... but it's not something you can do forever" then perhaps I would have had second thoughts. There are only two of us out of the 13 who finished the course who are still working in the field... one of my friends has to have an operation for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome ffs.

So I have to put all that training and working aside and go back to looking for work. And it is VERY difficult. For example, where I am there are 52 jobs today - not one of them in my field. What makes it harder is the children - I have only certain hours I can work and finding a job with those hours is nearly impossible unless I want to travel for 1.5 hours each way - and are the wages enough to cover the travel for such minimal hours???

And now with the AWA in my mind it makes it even more difficult...

**Stav** · 14-10-2005, 08:48 AM

All I can say is that we are going into the dark ages again.Instead of collective/enterprise bargaining and employemnt contracts..why dont the government assist business so that it can flourish instead of ripping off the worker.?? Thye just spent 11 million promoting this new move and we are paying.It has gotten to the stage where as I drive around many shopfronts are closed including major businessess.

It has always been said that Australia has a poor manufacturing industry.This has been know for well over 13 years.If incentives were provided from an economic standpoint the country would be on of the richest in the world.

This workplace realtions stuff is just looking for uneducated and uninformed workers to take advantage of.
The reason why so much legislation is currently required is because of the prior rippoffs and rorts by employers against workers.Each piece represents a prtection against each unfair treatment based on legal precedent from the past.Scrap that and youll scrap peoples rights.

Bossxr8 · 14-10-2005, 08:09 PM

The comment by John Howard that if you didn't like what you were being offered, then get another job somewhere else just proves how ignorant he really is. If only it was that simple. Is he really that out of touch with reality?

xr8ute · 14-10-2005, 08:30 PM

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Originally Posted by Bossxr8

If only it was that simple. Is he really that out of touch with reality?

Yes..

xr8ute · 14-10-2005, 08:41 PM

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Originally Posted by AuFairlaneV8

I havent had time to look into all these changes yet, but are they going to help salary staff who are working extra hours for no extra money, I know people who are working up to 20 hours extra a week for nothing, I hope this new system will address this issue

From what I am reading, not even close...

There are some very good resources linked from the workchoices.gov.au website.

I strongly reccomend you pour yourself a coffee and browse through the "Media" section of the website for transcripts of media interviews, and official press releases.

MO · 14-10-2005, 09:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The comment by John Howard that if you didn't like what you were being offered, then get another job somewhere else just proves how ignorant he really is. If only it was that simple. Is he really that out of touch with reality?

I doubt he could tell you what a loaf of bread costs....this is from a statement he made some years ago when asked by a reporter...his reply I don't do the shopping thats Janets job.

MO · 14-10-2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maglite

I just finished reading that other thread.......some real good comments were made and others were absolute cr*p.
Thats the beauty of the forum type discussion, everyone gets to express their point veiw in what you should be a fair and open manner.
You dont necessarily have to agree with another members opinion, but at the very least, you should respect their it.

I have never met John, but i wouldnt mind having a beer with him as im sure we could have a very lively discussion . I dont agree with most of his posts but i respect his right to express his opinion.
We will have to agree to disagree.

Now John.......about that beer.....

Now that sounds like a top idea...except I don't know where you are...if you like pm me your approx location and we'll go from there.

XD 351 Ute · 14-10-2005, 11:06 PM

I'm not certain of anything regarding the changes with these new reforms, but I'm quietly confident that the majority of workers are in for a harder time in the day to day activites of life than they are now.

I have stated similar comments on other threads about this.

The only thing that I AM certain of, is that after watching Mr Howard on the 7.30 report on the ABC the other night, I am VERY sure that he hasn't got our best interests at heart.

The man should be commended however on his innate ability to dodge questions, and provide answers that don't mean anything sensible!

Ed

4.9 EF Futura · 02-11-2005, 06:22 PM

Hmmm, well i've never been one to mine threads... but anyways, the IR reform bill has recently been tabled in parliament. I realise much of the discussion surrounding the topic has lacked the ability to refer to the actual legislation itself and has been based on union and liberal party campaigns.

Link to the draft legislation is here... all 691 pages of it:

http://parlinfoweb.aph.gov.au/piweb/...d/02110502.pdf

Worth noting its only a BILL at this stage and i'd guess there will be hundreds of changes made.

Happy reading.

MO · 02-11-2005, 11:19 PM

YOU WISH...this bill will be pushed as hard as the gov, can push it to get it through without mods...ifit gets through you the workers will over the next 3/5 yrs notice a very big drop in earnings

RED_EL_XR8 · 02-11-2005, 11:22 PM

And there off!! With thread miner hold a handy lead over re-post in the running of this Years Rhetoric cup .......

MO · 02-11-2005, 11:25 PM

Jeez Red....c'mon you know I'm right......

RED_EL_XR8 · 02-11-2005, 11:29 PM

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Originally Posted by John McMaster

Jeez Red....c'mon you know I'm right......

On the contrary J McM your about as left as they come. lol

MO · 02-11-2005, 11:34 PM

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Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

On the contrary J McM your about as left as they come. lol

And bloody proud of it!!!!!! hehehe

4.9 EF Futura · 03-11-2005, 10:05 AM

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Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

And there off!! With thread miner hold a handy lead over re-post in the running of this Years Rhetoric cup .......

With post-whore coming a close 3rd

deesun · 03-11-2005, 10:22 AM

I was going to start a thread about this but there was concern that talking about the IR laws would spark a riot but I forgot about this thread and seing as it hasn't turned riotus just yet here is a link that I think many people could find useful. Aparently there is or will be some TV ads about it too.

http://www.yourightsatwork.com.au/

4.9 EF Futura · 03-11-2005, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deesun

I was going to start a thread about this but there was concern that talking about the IR laws would spark a riot but I forgot about this thread and seing as it hasn't turned riotus just yet here is a link that I think many people could find useful. Aparently there is or will be some TV ads about it too.

http://www.yourightsatwork.com.au/

Some interesting stuff on there. Speaking of riots, are you going on the 15th?