Elderly couple caught up in a drag race.

[Aeron]

Its not hard to see how the accident happened.

From the RTA website...

[HLC]

i drive through that intersection nearly every single day. living close and i go to uni down the road.

now i saw my best mate have a similar sort of accident about 3 kilometres down the road at werrington.


he went to turn right in front of on coming traffic, and a car went through the lights and hit him head on. now its unsure whether the lights were orange or red. he started to turn when the lights had been orange for a long time. and the other car appeared to speed up at the last minute. although i did lose site of it once he started moving.






how is that relevant?




that stretch of road where the commo's were "racing" its pretty darn easy to get up to speed there. that section is a 60 zone, and i can say, expecting flaming, that i have been doing well over 60 down there, nothing ridiculous or insane. but 3 empty lanes, 60 kays is a bit ridiculous.



now say the commodores were going through what was an orange light, the lady in the camry, in her old age, misjudged and just ASSUMED they were slowing down. EXACTLY what my mate did. she pulled out and bang.




yes, the guys speeding were in the wrong, but under any other circumstance, if they were not racing, im sure the elderly couple would have been accused of being at fault.

BUT,

because of the racing blah blah etc, all of a sudden, the blame is shifted for some insane reason.

if in fact, the camry driver did cause the accident, charging the commodore driver for neg driving causing death is ridiculous. yes he was speeding, but he cant control other peoples actions, IE pulling out in front of him.

even if he t-boned them at 60kph, i dont think the elderly couple would have survived. the human body is a lot frailer at 70 and in an older car too. yeah no hope.



thats my 2 cents. take it or leave it.

[Aeron]

I'll take your 2 cents worth, because you are right mate.

[Mark s]

I find it amazing that people are so easy to blame the old couple who were killed.

Maybe the old lady driving did misjudge the distance the car was travelling, however there is no excuse for using a public road as your own personal drag racing strip. Despite who was in the wrong (and only those that were there know who that was) the cars that were speeding were definitely in the wrong and have caused this tragedy that took two loved ones away.

I feel that those who are putting blame upon the elderly couple are simple minded and obviously have no respect for the safety of others on public roads and feel that it is their god given right to drive in any manner they wish.

Put yourself in the shoes of those children of the elderly couple. Imagine it was your parents killed. Would you still feel the same way?????????

Grow up and only make comments on what you know to be true.

Respect the dead and let them have their peace as they deserved to live and lets hope the family members dont have to read the drivel written in here.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by Aeron

but being charged with dangerous driving causing death is a bit rich, when the Camry caused the thing in the first place.

Can't help but think if you'd still feel that way if they were your grandparents/parents.

[DJL351]

Please explain.

The Camry cause the crash????

So, the drag racing duo were in the right????
They should be charge with the deaths????

She/he turned infront of the two drag racing cars.... yes, maybe.

My questions to you:

If the two drag racing fools were doing the speed limit would the crash have happened?

If the old couple had of still turned in front of them at the posted limit, would they have lived?
(maybe- maybe not.... we'll never know)

The action of breaking rule "A" does not effect or follow on to rule "B"?

Going by the comments here, I can fire a gun at a person, kill them but not be charged.
I could simply say they stepped in front of the bullet.

[Hunter]

Turns out one of the Commodore drivers was a habitual driving offender:

What was that I was saying about people not learning and driving like morons no matter what?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599...3-1242,00.html

Refusing bail, Mr Sterlane cited the strength of the prosecution case, Mr Borkowski's extensive criminal driving history, the seriousness of the charge and the need to protect the community from "people like him and the manner of his driving".

http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/str...74401-qum.html

Borkowski only regained his unrestricted licence in November 2006, he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...01/1994047.htm

Acting magistrate at the Central Local Court, Ross Sterlane, said he was refusing bail because Borkowski was a risk to the community and had a lengthy criminal record, including driving with a suspended licence and three prior drink-driving charges.

Do you guys still think he's a completely innocent motorist? It doesn't seem so (it is up to the court to decide this of course but it doesn't look so good does it?)

He's been done not once, not twice but three bloody times for DUI? Drink driving is pretty stupid however I can accept that everyone makes a mistake but doing something 3 times is not a mistake, clearly this man does give a flying f- about anyone else.

[AuFairlaneV8]

Will be interesting to see what comes out of the coroners report. See if the real speed is determined. Lets say it turns out they were doing 80k (car turning right in front doesnt give much time to react impact would still be more than 70ks) before the accident do they deserve to be charged? I know 80ks is over the limit but would be a dangerous precendent. Im just hoping this isnt a case of 2 people being crucified by the media over an account from a traumatised witness...notice when watching motorsports cars always look like they are going faster when they spin off the track or crash. Braking so hard that there tyres popped doesnt sound right to me.

If they were racing or traveling at excessive speed then they deserve to be charged with manslaughter.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by AuFairlaneV8

Will be interesting to see what comes out of the coroners report. See if the real speed is determined. Lets say it turns out they were doing 80k (car turning right in front doesnt give much time to react impact would still be more than 70ks) before the accident do they deserve to be charged? I know 80ks is over the limit but would be a dangerous precendent.

Normally in a motor vehicle accident, in the eyes of the law at least, its rare for a person to be 100% at fault. An instance of this would be a person losing control and crossing the median strip and colliding head on.

Im just hoping this isnt a case of 2 people being crucified by the media over an account from a traumatised witness..

Again, there were several witnesses including a fire crew - I'd wager the fire crew has attended many accidents in their time and probably have a rough idea about what sort of speed causes what sort of damage. I'd say the driver(s) are doing a pretty good job of making their cases look bad - the fact that the driver who was charged has an extensive history of disregarding the law and driving in an unsafe manner AND drink driving won't help his case at all and if he is found guilty he is quite likely to serve a jail sentence (as he should).

Braking so hard that there tyres popped doesnt sound right to me.

Tyres can pop under hard braking if the rubber is poor quality, worn out (e.g. no tread left) or if they've been driving above the rated speed for the tyre frequently. Friction generates heat, heat causes air to expand, air expanding causes tyre to burst. It happens with truck tyres - haven't you ever been behind a truck that's had one of its wheels lock and blow a rubber? Scares the crap out of you that's for sure!

If they were racing or traveling at excessive speed then they deserve to be charged with manslaughter.

I don't know if it will be manslaughter but as I said they will probably do jail time.

[MeLLy]

Originally Posted by Mark s

I find it amazing that people are so easy to blame the old couple who were killed.

Maybe the old lady driving did misjudge the distance the car was travelling, however there is no excuse for using a public road as your own personal drag racing strip. Despite who was in the wrong (and only those that were there know who that was) the cars that were speeding were definitely in the wrong and have caused this tragedy that took two loved ones away.

I feel that those who are putting blame upon the elderly couple are simple minded and obviously have no respect for the safety of others on public roads and feel that it is their god given right to drive in any manner they wish.

Put yourself in the shoes of those children of the elderly couple. Imagine it was your parents killed. Would you still feel the same way?????????

Grow up and only make comments on what you know to be true.

Respect the dead and let them have their peace as they deserved to live and lets hope the family members dont have to read the drivel written in here.

Look i'm not simple minded & i know how it feels to lose a loved one...
But its something called reading between the lines, once the media found out it was two street racing commodore "hoons" it became a big deal. Especially when the couple died which is tragic, but they were attempting to turn right and the two cars were coming head on towards the old lady, why do you think it took the cops so long to charge someone?? And why did they only charge one of the two drivers?? Because the old lady misjudged whether the two cars were going to stop at the lights (if there was some) or she misjudged their speed, she had the give way sign so to speak.All parties were in the wrong....Blame is posted at all of them, but it wouldnt of been such a big deal if the two commodores were doing the speed limit and had hit the couple wouldnt it?...If the couple had of survived they would of been clearly at fault, just think if he had of waited she wouldnt of crashed, And no im not putting my blame souly on the old couple.
Its as simple as being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

[CMH86]

There seems to be two consistant arguments in the media - either they want to remove the elderly from driving, or stop the younger drivers (17 - 25) driving high powered cars, driving late at night, minimising passangers etc....and I must say yes, I think elderly drivers should submit to annual eye testing (free of charge) and yes, I do agree that some drivers should be limited on there vehicles, but how do you choose who is allowed to drive a V8/V6/turbo. I know that I am responsible with my V8 (Im 20), but I know that there are alot of people that arnt responsible.

Has anyone ever considered the possibility that it was a genuine accident, the Toyota driver thought that they would make (when really it was going to be close) and maybe the Commodores were speeding a little...not necessarily by much, maybe just doing 80km/h each.

The real lesson for everyone here is be careful! Everyone needs to drive as if everyone else on the road is an idiot that at any second could run them off the road so that you are prepared to anything.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Haven't you ever been behind a truck that's had one of its wheels lock and blow a rubber? Scares the crap out of you that's for sure!

This is interesting…
In all of my years driving trucks, I’ve blown more tyres than I care to remember, however, I’ve never blown one under braking.

I blew two tyres when an S-cam brake disintegrated on one axle and didn’t release (in the dark) about nine weeks ago near Narrandera, as I was leaving a parking bay. It took nearly 500 metres before the two tyres blew. I couldn’t imagine any truck skidding for 500 metres under a normal braking application.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Again, there were several witnesses including a fire crew - I'd wager the fire crew has attended many accidents in their time and probably have a rough idea about what sort of speed causes what sort of damage.

I understand your point. As for the eye witnesses, the courts will ultimately decide who to believe.

Flame suit on

I couldn’t care less what someone does for a job when people refer to them as witnesses. He’s a fire-fighter…. Who cares?
He could also be an idiot? He could also have a grudge against anyone that drives a modified car, but because he’s a fire-fighter, we’d better believe him.
Absolute BS.

Thank god we have trained investigators.

[Bucknaked]

I find it interesting that people would point the finger of blame at the driver of the camry. What ever conclusions you come too, right or wrong, the fact is that those drivers were speeding. They were racing on a public road. You can't blame the camry driver. She was put into a situation that she should never have been put into. Please don't try to justify that these drag racers weren't to blame. They were part of the problem. Without those drag racers, this couple would still be alive.

[colossus]

Originally Posted by Mark s

I find it amazing that people are so easy to blame the old couple who were killed.

Maybe the old lady driving did misjudge the distance the car was travelling, however there is no excuse for using a public road as your own personal drag racing strip. Despite who was in the wrong (and only those that were there know who that was) the cars that were speeding were definitely in the wrong and have caused this tragedy that took two loved ones away.

I feel that those who are putting blame upon the elderly couple are simple minded and obviously have no respect for the safety of others on public roads and feel that it is their god given right to drive in any manner they wish.

Put yourself in the shoes of those children of the elderly couple. Imagine it was your parents killed. Would you still feel the same way?????????

Grow up and only make comments on what you know to be true.

Respect the dead and let them have their peace as they deserved to live and lets hope the family members dont have to read the drivel written in here.

Simple minded?

I'll tell you whats simple - giving way to oncoming traffic. Not a hard rule to follow. The old couple caused the accident, the "street racers" contributed to its severity. Simple really.

[CMH86]

Too right...

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

This is interesting…
In all of my years driving trucks, I’ve blown more tyres than I care to remember, however, I’ve never blown one under braking.

I blew two tyres when an S-cam brake disintegrated on one axle and didn’t release (in the dark) about nine weeks ago near Narrandera, as I was leaving a parking bay. It took nearly 500 metres before the two tyres blew. I couldn’t imagine any truck skidding for 500 metres under a normal braking application.

Nah the trucks I've seen weren't braking - one of the outer wheels (on trucks with several wheels on each axle) locked up and the other wheels kept spinning/truck kept moving. It didn't take long for the locked wheel's tyre to burst.

I understand your point. As for the eye witnesses, the courts will ultimately decide who to believe.

Of course.

Flame suit on

I couldn’t care less what someone does for a job when people refer to them as witnesses. He’s a fire-fighter…. Who cares?
He could also be an idiot? He could also have a grudge against anyone that drives a modified car, but because he’s a fire-fighter, we’d better believe him.
Absolute BS.

Some witnesses are more credible than others. If two men are on the street and both witness a driveby shooting but one of the witnesses is high on drugs the one who wasn't high (ie sober) is likely to be more credible than the drug-addled witness.

Thank god we have trained investigators.

Indeed.

[jason71]

One thing that everyone who is saying that the Camry driver was in the wrong haven't considered is the field of view the driver might not have had.
At the moment the Camry driver pulled out the commodores might not have been in sight due to vegetation in the medium strip ect. and due to the commodores fast approaching speed they hit them before they could finish crossing the road.
The speed limit is 60km/h for a reason.

[oneredED]

I find it interesting that people would point the finger of blame at the driver of the camry. What ever conclusions you come too, right or wrong, the fact is that those drivers were speeding. They were racing on a public road. You can't blame the camry driver. She was put into a situation that she should never have been put into. Please don't try to justify that these drag racers weren't to blame. They were part of the problem. Without those drag racers, this couple would still be alive.

Yes, you could also conclude that right or wrong, the other driver pulled in front of them unnecessarily, which is also illegal. If she hadn't broken the law also then they would also be alive. Go figure.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by jason71

One thing that everyone who is saying that the Camry driver was in the wrong haven't considered is the field of view the driver might not have had.
At the moment the Camry driver pulled out the commodores might not have been in sight due to vegetation in the medium strip ect. and due to the commodores fast approaching speed they hit them before they could finish crossing the road.
The speed limit is 60km/h for a reason.

You're exactly right and in fact I have here on my PC a 3d map from google earth and its quite clear that the camry driver would not have seen the two approaching commodores until at the very most 200 m away - and it seems theres a few trees and other cars/shops/median strip stuff that could prevent them from seeing them. The commodore drivers would not have seen the camry until they were almost on top of them (which is why they should not have been speeding, never out run your ability to brake or see, whichever is closer).

[MeLLy]

Originally Posted by colossus

Simple minded?

I'll tell you whats simple - giving way to oncoming traffic. Not a hard rule to follow. The old couple caused the accident, the "street racers" contributed to its severity. Simple really.

Exactly what i was saying!
nice to see someone else is thinking about the whole picture and not just pointing the finger to the contributing factor to take all the blame.
Both had a significant role in the events.

[FPV GT]

Thank heavens we have trained investigators. And the unfortunate / sad truth will be revealed.
Thats why the crash unit are professionals, they only rely on the physical evidence, not what "Bob's mate's brother's next door neighbour" said down the local, or the views expressed by some wet behind the ears stay at home keyboard warrior.

[Bucknaked]

Paper said today that the driver of the commodore (one in the pictures in the paper) has 3 DUI's against his name and was driving on a suspended licence. Remanded in custody to reappear in November. Finally, off our streets.

There ya go eh!!! A menace on our roads, dangerous and a habitual offender, yet people are blaming the driver of the camry. I guess it proves you don't need an education to get a licence. Even idiots can get a licence too. He had one.

[VSSII]

Mm Lots of armchair experts. Nothing wrong with that, this is the internet! But we are talking about people that have lost lives here and people with less than half the information available are pointing the finger at the victims! How many people are familiar with the intersection, how many people know which lane the offending vehicle was travelling in? What was the speed of surrounding traffic? What is the quality of the roadsurface at the intersection? What sort of view was available of oncoming traffic? It's considerably more difficult to estimate the speed of an oncoming vehicle at night, and at that time of day would you really expect an approaching car to be doing the type of speed the skyline was? I think not.

[Mark s]

Well I lived and have driven in the area for over 20 years.

It is an accident blackspot, and you can see some white crosses have been placed around this area over the years. There are also 3 sets of traffic lights within 200 odd meters, the last set of lights is where the accident occured.

There are so many factors as why these people were killed. There is plant growth around 80 meters up the Rd at the traffic lights for the band club as Jason71 has pointed out. IIRC There is some kind of metal fencing on the medium strip to stop people staggering across the road from the Band club and the Pub and getting hit by cars.

At the end of the day 2 people have been killed by idiots, one of which has a proven track record for obeying the rules of the road and other road users.

Maybe this will be an incentive for the NSW state Govt will bring in more 50k zones, more speed cameras, and more of a reason to pull over people in V8 powered cars, who can respect the laws and other road users.

colossus, MeLLy, Do you know if the camry driver had her headlights on? Maybe she didn't and the 2 law abidding drivers did not see her, and then decided to have a bit of fun.

[FPV GT]

Nothing personal but come on.

Originally Posted by Mark s

Maybe this will be an incentive for the NSW state Govt will bring in more 50k zones, more speed cameras, and more of a reason to pull over people in V8 powered cars, who can respect the laws and other road users.

What does the configuration of a motor got to do with it. IIRC they were v6's.
A 1.8 litre straight 4 can still do 100km/h in a 60km/h zone.

Originally Posted by Mark s

colossus, MeLLy, Do you know if the camry driver had her headlights on? Maybe she didn't and the 2 law abidding drivers did not see her, and then decided to have a bit of fun.

Now that is quite silly.
If you are a law abiding driver (which in this case his history has prooved he is not), you do not decide to have some fun.


Regards
Paul

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Some witnesses are more credible than others. If two men are on the street and both witness a driveby shooting but one of the witnesses is high on drugs the one who wasn't high (ie sober) is likely to be more credible than the drug-addled witness.

What if the sober man is a paedophile. Or a Male Prostitute. Im sure he would suddenly be struck down with poor eyesight.

What if the man high on drugs is a supreme court judge?

Its all irrelevant.

Eyewitness testimony is the most unreliable form of evidence that exists. Credibility does little to enhance ones eye sight and concentration.

[photn]

mkay time to jump on the band wagon..

now i dont watch the news that much and only heard a bit about this apart from reading the 1st 3 pages of this thread.
Now i work here at the RTA. for the Fatal section that records all deaths on the road, we have the coronor report and all that. but for reasons of confidentiality i am not allowed to disclose any information.

This crash sorta reminded me of a crash that occured a few months ago.

A lady was turning out of a rest stop on the highway down south. as she pulled out into her lane (clossest one to the stop) she was taken out by a semi trailer and both her and her child where killed instantly.

Relevance... Both where in the right. The Semi was overtaking a car, the lady looked to check for cars and there where none. so she pulled out. she didnt though check the opposite direction. Now as painstaking as this may bee. the lady was deemed at fault, because the truck was overtaking and had right of way.

Now if its true that the lady was turning and turned on a Yellow light infront of On comming traffic.. LEGALLY the elderly lady would be deemed at fault. As she technically pulled out in front of oncomming traffic. Now oncomming traffic doing 60 or doing 140km is STILL ON COMMING traffic. SO in that respect The elderly lady was in the wrong.

BUT

The two commodore drivers where speeding, which is a seperate Offence. They where driving Dangerously. You all seem to be getting confused here. The drivers are beeing Charged with Neg driving and speeding and causeing a death.. they are not beeing BLAMED FOR THE CRASH! that occoured.. The media is choosing their words carefully.

Im not blaming the commodore drivers soley, nor am i blaming the elderly soley. BUT in my eyes both/ all three parties where at fault.

Obviosuly you cant charge a dead couple, so there is no one else to blame, but the commodore drivers.

what seems to be going on is a political movement. the politicians are pushing this so that they can justify more P plater restrictions.

lastly that crash does not look like they where traveling at 140, otherwise there would be NO front left of the car. i should know, i recently rolled my car doing 90 (there was oil on road) and just that damaged the car beyond repair. also. after seeing cars out at the Crashlab in blacktown i think it is. any car hitting an object doing 100km will not be there in any manner. essentially the cars hit doing a collective speed + force of 200km hour. thats ALOT of force and BOTH cars would have been destroyed INSTANTLY!! which they wherent.

it seems that the commodores may have been speeding. but in all honesty. i doubt that it was an incredible speed.

just my 4 cents/

[Full Noise]

Thanks for your post Photn.
I have also seen a lot of serious accidents and badly bent cars in my time and have to agree with you on the damage to these vehicles. In fact, there was an accident three streets away from my house where a man not paying attention ran a VY into the back of a parked car at the horrific speed of around 50 k/ph.

If you saw the damage to the VY, you’d think that he was travelling at 150, but he wasn’t. Many people tend to forget that these cars are designed to fold up in an accident.

Another thing. The Commodore and the Camry virtually hit headlight to headlight on an opposing angle.

Three questions.

Why did both cars finish up so close to each other?

Why didn’t the Commodore end up clipping the back of the Camry if there was such a large gap for the Camry to pull out from?

When are the toxicology test results for the Camry driver going to be made public?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

If you saw the damage to the VY, you’d think that he was travelling at 150, but he wasn’t. Many people tend to forget that these cars are designed to fold up in an accident.

Is the VY designed to have its engine go through the firewall and into the cabin at 50 km/h?

[Aeron]

Originally Posted by photn

Now if its true that the lady was turning and turned on a Yellow (or green) light infront of On comming traffic.. LEGALLY the elderly lady would be deemed at fault. As she technically pulled out in front of oncomming traffic. Now oncomming traffic doing 60 or doing 140km is STILL ON COMMING traffic. SO in that respect The elderly lady was in the wrong.

BUT

The two commodore drivers where speeding, which is a seperate Offence. They where driving Dangerously. You all seem to be getting confused here. The drivers are beeing Charged with Neg driving and speeding and causeing a death.. they are not beeing BLAMED FOR THE CRASH! that occoured.. The media is choosing their words carefully.

Im not blaming the commodore drivers soley, nor am i blaming the elderly soley. BUT in my eyes both/ all three parties where at fault.

That what i've been trying to say.

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Can't help but think if you'd still feel that way if they were your grandparents/parents.

If it was my grandparents/parents, I'd be asking myself, "WHY THE HELL DID THEY PULL OUT IN FRONT OF THEM!?!?!?!

Its quite simple. Both drivers had an equal part in the crash.

I still think there needs to be something done about elderly drivers driving at night.