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#61 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Barellan Point
Posts: 571
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Haha sorry mate. If its alright with Wally? ![]()
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Current Ride - 2013 Ford Ranger, XLT 4x4, ARB kitted brick Former Current ride - 09 XR6T in Octane, with a pinch of Sports pack Weekender - Ford Cortina 1969 coupe Project - 1968 Ford Cortina 4 door |
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#62 | ||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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No, go and get your own topic!
![]() Back on topic:- why is it we give bouquets and brickbats to firms like Holden and Ford for doing to engines what enthuisiasts have been doing in their backyards for generations. When it's done in the house shed it's called tinkering, when it's done in a factory it's called R&D engineering. Big deal if Holden out "engineer" Ford, it's not as if there are poles of differences between them and very little of the engineering is anything but adapting technology and innovation that has already been done and dusted in Europe or Japan; maybe even the USA. |
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#63 | ||
You dig, we stick!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,461
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I've got to laugh at Holden's idea of engineering. "Alloytec"
![]() Reuss- “We are going work on executing high quality today and further fuel efficiency and efficiency on this vehicle,” he said. “We are going to out-engineer the competition, and dropping cylinders would be the last resort because people still like the power, the performance, the towing, and the BULLSHT, all of those things that we get in Australia with this engine and this car.” Can you believe this bloke? I think that's why Marin is "delighted"; Reuss calls that atrocity "engineering" when all it really is is spin, aka BULLSHT. If this is all they have to offer then unfortunately they will be needing another 1/2 Billion dollar Centrelink cheque in a few more years.
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"....You don't put the car through engineering" - Rod Barrett. |
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#64 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,504
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I'm not going to explain what's involved when such changes are implemented to a product, others may do that for you... but it's allot more complicated and technical than just 'tinkering'. |
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#65 | ||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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I do have a good understanding of such things and yes I get pretty heavily into engineering and yes I was leg pulling.
![]() I wasn't slighting you and I think you know that. Creating a car that is safe, reliable, durable, attractive and suitable for mass production requires a lot more collaborative brain power and experience than a "tinkerer" for sure. |
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#66 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Enroute
Posts: 4,050
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Amen to that. How can he honestly talk this engine up and deride the ford 4T when the torque and peak power it produces is so much less? I'd give him credibility if the ****o-tech produced more than 320nm in 3 litre guise but it is so underpowered, that a 2 litre is going to mop the floor with it. Whatsmore, getting more power out of such an engine will just require more fuel, as sticking with V engines makes it harder to turbocharge for serious power. Guaranteed the next hypo V6 out of Holden will be a supercharged version of the ****o-tech as opposed to twin turbo. "Holden, quick, stick a badge on it before they cancel your dole money"
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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#67 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 837
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3.0 SIDI and 290 Nm does not bode well for shifting 1700KG. It will be gutless.
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#68 | |||
Getting it done.....
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,219
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You make a good point though. It smacks of spin when a guy says stuff like that when its based in such hogwash. Sure the bit about 'delivering today' is a nice PR swipe at Ford. But the reality is that the basic ENGINEERING he refers to on the 'new' alloytec range is poor. By world standards, its very poor indeed. The complaints from GM faithful in the states proves this. Moreover, the obvious target of Reuss' comments, Ford Aus, is going to release an engine that even at this early stage they are pretty much guranteeing will wipe out this 3.0 DI base car. Hell the 3.6 'high spec' engine is not any better than what Ford has had for years (even pre FG), so yeah, does that mean ford 'out engineered' holden back in 2005 when it launched the BF. Ah...that would be a YES REUSS YOU IMBECILE!!!!
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Dynamic White 1995 EF XR6 Auto Now with: Pacemaker 4499s Lukey Catback Exhaust Chrome BA XR-style tip Airdam Mounted CAI with modified (bellmouth) airbox Trip Computer install KYB shocks Bridgestone Adrenalin tyres Coming Soon: Exhaust Overhaul..... |
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#69 | |||
Force Fed Fords
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Enroute
Posts: 4,050
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Spot on Swordsman, but the problem is the Holden faithful will still flock toward it, even if they stuck a rubber band in for the engine. Will be an interesting sell too with all that less power; "I want to go really slow in something that cost alot but is built of Korean parts"
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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#70 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,848
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Opinion from the red side (well actually GM is Blue in USA)
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...8/#post1820306 |
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#71 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Enroute
Posts: 4,050
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So much for the alleged fuel economy, especially since Holden are always so forthright with the fuel economy figures (think VE launch).
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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#72 | ||||
You dig, we stick!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,461
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Those torque figures are interesting. How does Holden manage to do something GM can't; achieve normal torque figures at normal revs. All the HFV6s over there rev beyond 10,000rpm (exaggerated for better effect) to reach peak torque. I mean, how does Holden do it at 2900rpm? Geniuses.
There's also a very big flaw in the first post. He refers to the 3.6 thus: Quote:
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"....You don't put the car through engineering" - Rod Barrett. |
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#73 | ||
mustang pilot
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SA
Posts: 372
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Sounds like their Aussie test fleet ie SS's faster than HSV GTS's
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#74 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,021
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Holden have a poor history of test car manipulation......
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#75 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melb.
Posts: 4,436
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#76 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Enroute
Posts: 4,050
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Quote:
Jack hammers have never been as noisy or vibrated as much as the 3.6. ![]()
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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#77 | |||
Getting it done.....
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,219
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Basically the 3.0 SIDI engine that GM are using was the 'replace' the port injection 3.6 (which i don't think they use anymore in passenger cars over there). the 3.0 DI can match or exceed the port injection 3.6 IN POWER and so the theory was to save fuel while matching power. You then put the 3.6 DI engine in teh up spec models with its top end power. Of course the rubbish torque production of the alloytec (which has blighed pretty much every version, save the turbo 2.8) reared it head again. Now the 3.0 is such a slug the gearing has had to be fiddled with and that has hurt fuel economy....the very thing it was suposed to excell at. I'd say GM realised quite late in the process that the 3.0 was a bit of lemon but hadn't the cash or time (given a dearth of new product) to bother. They just did the best they could gearing wise and launched the product. Sound familiar? Holden has worked on their version a bit longer...hence the mediocre improvements ON PAPER. Holden have gone for economy by detuning the engine and trying to produce as much torque down low as possible...with comparitively tall gearing. This may make decent ADR numbers but in the real world the 3.0 won't burn any less than the 3.6. And it will be, as this GM poster noted, 'a slug' to drive.
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Dynamic White 1995 EF XR6 Auto Now with: Pacemaker 4499s Lukey Catback Exhaust Chrome BA XR-style tip Airdam Mounted CAI with modified (bellmouth) airbox Trip Computer install KYB shocks Bridgestone Adrenalin tyres Coming Soon: Exhaust Overhaul..... |
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#78 | ||||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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The specifications on the 4 August release sheet for the MY10 cars are: Euro IV+ LF1= 2997cc CR 11.7:1 190kW@ 6700 290N-m @2900 91 Ron LLT = 3564 CR 11.3:1 210kW @6400 350N-m @ 2900 91 Ron tranny is 6L50E 4.06 2.37 1.55 1.16 0.85 0.67 FD 3.27 Quote:
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#79 | ||
You dig, we stick!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,461
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The 3.27 diff with the very short 1st will ensure 14.6s in the 3.6. The press cars will get 13.9 lol.
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"....You don't put the car through engineering" - Rod Barrett. |
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#80 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 3,246
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The 3.0L SIDS will rev like buggery, make lots of noise and feel quick. But it won't be.
The drivers will think they are saving the planet because of the low ADR fuel figure and the rigged trip computer settings which (display lower fuel burn and) have graced GMHoldens for years now. Either way, the car will be a success because the media is too biased to query or announce concerns and the faithful will buy it due to it's badge.
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BA2 XR8 Rapid M6 Ute - Lid - Tint -18s 226.8rwkW@178kmh/537Nm@140kmh 1/9/2013 14.2@163kmh 23/10/2013 Boss349 built. Not yet run. Waiting on a shell. Retrotech thread http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...1363569&page=6 |
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#81 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Enroute
Posts: 4,050
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Quote:
It'll be praised because idiots like rollover Gover are required to praise it, or else he doesn't receive his free HSV every year (check out what he drives, or check the wheels parking lot).
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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#82 | |||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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Quote:
There's also the saving from using cheaper fuel. My Holden is all but smack on with trip computer fuel consumption and actual. It hasn't broken down (#1), my cumulative servicing bill is about $500 ish for the three years, it goes like stink, it has no piston slap, it has original brake pads, it doesn't have any oil leaks, my average over the 79k is 12.8 l/100, which aint bad for a six litre auto, it corners better than any large car I've had and my bluetooth works well since I upgraded my phone. Note #1. It did split it's fuel tank a day after I took possession, but Holden sent out a tilt truck, gave me a brand new loaner, no questions asked and I had a phone call from head office an hour later apologising for the inconvenience. Ford on the otherhand refused to play ball with my new car that regularly stalled going up hills, cost me hundreds every service and finally decided to roll backwards down an incline (where children regularly played) and wipe out a few trees... they too gave me a brand new loaner and picked up the repair bill, but only after things got very nasty and potentially dire for them after a few weeks. |
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#83 | |||
Getting it done.....
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,219
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Quote:
Moving right along, as noted by others, i think we will just have to wait the month or so tops before some people that dont' work for GMH have tried this new engine/drivetrain. We can't be sure until that point. In the meantime we can only go on the frankly mediocre reports from the states and pretty underwhelming raw figures. This thread is about holden's frankly questionable claims that it will 'out engineer't its competitors. In so far as its method of doing this relies, among other things, on this 'next generation' of V6 engines i think people have the right to compare these engines with their competition. AT THIS POINT, i'd view Ruess' comments as based in pr spin, not fact.
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Dynamic White 1995 EF XR6 Auto Now with: Pacemaker 4499s Lukey Catback Exhaust Chrome BA XR-style tip Airdam Mounted CAI with modified (bellmouth) airbox Trip Computer install KYB shocks Bridgestone Adrenalin tyres Coming Soon: Exhaust Overhaul..... |
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#84 | |||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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Quote:
Well I guess the tone of the thread is, as usual Holden bashing, and I thought I would include some fact i.e: 1 that the trip computer on my Holden has not been "graced" with a "rigged" trip computer 2. that I have not had any "concerns" and explained why 3. the contrasting experience with my Ford for punctuation As usual if someone posts full disclosure that doesn't fit the concensus argument it's "bashing" Ford. I think I've been quite forthright in publishing the facts regarding the errant RON figures being touted, the gear ratios, etc. I didn't publish the 12% reduction in CO2 emmissions between the SIDI and the current engine. Benchmarks for engines/engineering these days is not peak torque or power, it has swung to green issues and Holden are on that gravy train no doubt. |
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#85 | |||
Peter Car
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,145
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I can't see how you claim to like Fords and Holdens when every post you make praises Holden and bags Ford. Are you sure you aren't Paul Gover. Your style is just like his. |
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#86 | ||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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Well that's just not true and you know it. I don't claim to like either car. I merely offer my opinions loosely based on fact. Being a zealot doesn't equate to right.
How about you play the topic not the man. |
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#87 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 3,246
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Quote:
Even Gover mentioned it a few years back when there was issues with Commodore tanks. Some people at work ran out of fuel in their VY-VZ with a reasonable DTE. Getting back on topic, it won't be as economical as GMH predict. The reports from the US suggest as much. GMH won't out engineer Ford with engines or other tech, because they don't engineer their motors here. Ford does the I6 and has been doing the Boss V8 for years (although that will change - maybe - depends on some rumours...).
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BA2 XR8 Rapid M6 Ute - Lid - Tint -18s 226.8rwkW@178kmh/537Nm@140kmh 1/9/2013 14.2@163kmh 23/10/2013 Boss349 built. Not yet run. Waiting on a shell. Retrotech thread http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...1363569&page=6 |
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#88 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 3,246
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Quote:
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BA2 XR8 Rapid M6 Ute - Lid - Tint -18s 226.8rwkW@178kmh/537Nm@140kmh 1/9/2013 14.2@163kmh 23/10/2013 Boss349 built. Not yet run. Waiting on a shell. Retrotech thread http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...1363569&page=6 |
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#89 | |||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern Suburbs Melbourne
Posts: 17,798
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Daniel |
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#90 | |||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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So when it suits you Mr Gover is an oracle? History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's dam is the history we made today |
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