Go Back   Australian Ford Forums > Club and Speciality Forums > Forum Community Car Clubs > OzECruisers (E/N/D Series) > OzECruisers General Discussions

OzECruisers General Discussions E/N/D vehicles General Discussion ONLY. NO TECH THREADS

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-06-2006, 05:26 PM   #31
347_XR8
Slide Baby Slide
 
347_XR8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SA - The Drift State
Posts: 2,662
Default

That sucks guys. I'll be having a look into this cause another cruise club i'm with are down that way. It's shame for guys to be doing burnouts at DFO from what i hear and it's even worse for guys who had NOTHING to do with it get harrassed, disrespected and there cars disprespected.
In the words of Ray Martin "Shame, Shame, SHAME!" To that cop
__________________
:the_finge You want more inches...........STROKE IT!!! :the_finge

Mr Super Skid-Man
347_XR8 is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 05:27 PM   #32
Professor Farnsworth
Fossil fuel consumer
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mod For: Pub, Bar, Sales Yard, Show 'N Shine, Photoshop, AU to BF, FG to FGX, Territory & Sports Bar
Posts: 17,032
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: Many years of valuable contributions to the forum, including some superb build threads. 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 347_XR8
In the words of Ray Martin "Shame, Shame, SHAME!" To that cop
I think you'll find that was Deryn Hinch
Professor Farnsworth is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 05:35 PM   #33
Tiga_EL
Banned
 
Tiga_EL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: KNOX
Posts: 1,269
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fantz
I think you'll find that was Deryn Hinch
LOL.. yeh thats what i thought...
Tiga_EL is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 05:41 PM   #34
HSVETAR
Bring on the lion...
 
HSVETAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 974
Default

Dude that sucks so bad..... and you werent doing anything?? I HATE cops like this! If you get pulled up for doing stupid s##t, than fair enough, but to get pulled up, let alone abused for owning a modded car, thats just f###in bull###t! :SaiyanSmi :SaiyanSmi
__________________
El falcon, 4.0, XR6 camshaft, pacemaker extractors, 2.5 inch exhaust with tri flow sports muffler, AU TE50 intake, with K&N panel filter, Advanti racing Stalker 17" rims, Sitting on Ultra Low King Springs, 'Gabriel' Ultras Lowered struts, NOW MANUAL, 3.45 LSD

9.694 @ 75.38 MPH at Mildura Drag Strip 1/8 Mile

XC Falcon project car underway......

Last edited by HSVETAR; 05-06-2006 at 06:16 PM.
HSVETAR is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 05:49 PM   #35
Blue Ice
Living the Dream
 
Blue Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Traralgon, Victoria
Posts: 446
Default

Hmmm its almost bad enough to make you want to stick a camera and mic in your cabin to record this sort of stuff.
Blue Ice is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 06:04 PM   #36
sven
Regular Member
 
sven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Wheelers Hill
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EFFalcon
I get the impression the cops were responding to reports of burnouts at DFO.
which is fair enough.
there was no less then 5-10 cars doing burnouts at DFO at the time we left, unfortunately myself and a few other members were stuck in a line up of cars trying to get out.
Sunny managed to get us all out by holding up the line that was getting out quickest.

I don't think its the fact that they were pulled over, its the way it was handled.
i was just lucky i got away.... my door would fall off if it was slammed that hard.
i was on the first streetper4mance cruise and quite a lot of the guys there were doing burnouts so we left. on the way leaving saw a bunch of cops flying after them. they get good turnouts but in my opinion have trouble controlling the crowd.
what happened to you guys happens on most cruises. after a call of a few people on the cruise doing burnouts they target the cruise and pull over the members. it sucks if you did nothing though. happened to me on a beastclub cruise.
good luck sunny with whatever path you wish to follow. the abuse is the cop abusing his power and authority.

Steve
__________________
ED XR8
sven is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 06:25 PM   #37
-jjM-
Banned
 
-jjM-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oakleigh
Posts: 3,844
Default

jezus, go out to have fun and u get abused, not kewl dude

make sure u get this cop too

Quote:
I'd recommend stay out of any cruises going towards Moorabbin in future they're laying the smackdown up there. The lady at Cheltenham Police told me they are cracking down on cruises at DFO and at the drags in Oakleigh. If you're in that area with a modified car expect trouble from the Police.
living in oakleigh, im all to comman with drags, cops, all that, i can hear it out my window, i live inbetween princes hwy and ferntree gully road, princes is just a huge never ending drag stip itself, 3 lanes (4 in some case), long strips, its no wonder there crackin down, and still are.

i think its best we keep the cruises away from here to, i was goin to have a meet point at chadstone megamart for the next cruise but i think ill look at other places instead now
-jjM- is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 06:29 PM   #38
347_XR8
Slide Baby Slide
 
347_XR8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SA - The Drift State
Posts: 2,662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fantz
I think you'll find that was Deryn Hinch
Close enough :
__________________
:the_finge You want more inches...........STROKE IT!!! :the_finge

Mr Super Skid-Man
347_XR8 is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 06:30 PM   #39
EFFalcon
Last warning
 
EFFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Mornington Peninsula, Victoria HeadCount: 3
Posts: 11,194
Default

i don't think megamart(whats left of it) is such a bad idea, but DFO is deffinately out.
its about the 2nd or 3rd time DFO's ended up being burnouts when it comes to cruises i've been on.
Simply keep bahaviour good and cops won't be called out to be abusive.
E-Series cruises don't errupt in to burnout frenzies like mentioned in this thread.
__________________
FALCN6 - Turbo, Air Bag Suspension - Hibernating
EL GT - Supercharged
NASCAR - 83 Thunderbird , Bagged
DAILY - BA Fairlane Ghia, Boss 260 Turbo
OFFROADER - Ford Explorer
EFFalcon is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 06:42 PM   #40
wulos
Forum Director
 
wulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Coast NSW
Posts: 5,741
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: All the behind-the-scenes effort. Technical Contributor: For members who share their technical expertise. - Issue reason: For his advice, tips/tricks in the Art and Photography section of the Forum. 
Default

There's a saying "If you lay down with dogs, you will get fleas"
In the above case, perhaps you were minding your own business, and the officer in question was completely out of line with his antics.
Look at the incident from the other side for 1/2 a second, and you will possibly see things in a different light.
The police were responding to reports of 'hooning' & the like.(from sounds of things a regular occurance on cruises with this particular club) They turn up after the culprits have already fled, with a few 'peers' attempting to depart the scene as well. As a member of the general public, I would certainly hope they WOULD speak with members of the club to sort things out (like it or not it is their job).
When the officer was asking questions, did you pass on the names / number plates of those that actually CAUSED the confrontation with the police in the first place? (the ones responsible for the police targeting 'innocent?' drivers)Will you be passing details of these idiots onto ACA? or TT? Would the burnouts still have taken place if not for the 'safety in numbers' mentality offered by this clubs cruise?
How bout taking some responsibility for what happened, speak with ya feet, & refuse to attend 'cruises' that are frequented by idiots. Never know may save you the hassles of the police singling YOU out for attention in the future.
wulos is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 06:45 PM   #41
efgiar
rofl copter
 
efgiar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Werribee
Posts: 3,692
Default

cops are furakin , i aint gonna lie, i do a little bit of "hooning" here and there but the only reason is that where else are we ment to do it? we cant goto the drags and do circle work or do wat we want because they have guidlines, fair enough but that makes us want to go back onto the streets and do it because there isnt anywere else, if the cops and the government tried to work with us, not against us (hooning laws, confiscating cars etc) then it would be alot better, if they went out, bought a paddock somwere put tarmack down and set up certain guidlines for us then it would take alot of the "hoons" off the roads. instead of just giving us no were to have fun at our age they just pull us over and basicly say, no u cant have fun even if it is the only hobby u have! /me slaps cops with a large trout
__________________
GQ patrol.
....

thats all
efgiar is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 06:57 PM   #42
wulos
Forum Director
 
wulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Coast NSW
Posts: 5,741
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: All the behind-the-scenes effort. Technical Contributor: For members who share their technical expertise. - Issue reason: For his advice, tips/tricks in the Art and Photography section of the Forum. 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by efgiar
we cant goto the drags and do circle work or do wat we want because they have guidlines
And why do these guidelines stop you from having fun? Because they keep you and everyone around you safe?(so at the end of the night you at least go home in 1 piece)
wulos is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:05 PM   #43
EFFalcon
Last warning
 
EFFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Mornington Peninsula, Victoria HeadCount: 3
Posts: 11,194
Default

as i said before.
its not that ppl were pulled over.
its how they were treated.
__________________
FALCN6 - Turbo, Air Bag Suspension - Hibernating
EL GT - Supercharged
NASCAR - 83 Thunderbird , Bagged
DAILY - BA Fairlane Ghia, Boss 260 Turbo
OFFROADER - Ford Explorer
EFFalcon is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:05 PM   #44
xxxc
tuff
 
xxxc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bentleigh,vic
Posts: 635
Default

im from moorabbin/bentleigh and never really had any problems ,although dandy drgas usally go through there thurs night , but yer stupid cops shouting at people
__________________
.......................FG XR6 UTE...........................
......................xc fairmont gxl.........................
...................GQ coil cab UTE ..........................
xxxc is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:07 PM   #45
HSVETAR
Bring on the lion...
 
HSVETAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 974
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EFFalcon
as i said before.
its not that ppl were pulled over.
its how they were treated.
Exactly!!!
__________________
El falcon, 4.0, XR6 camshaft, pacemaker extractors, 2.5 inch exhaust with tri flow sports muffler, AU TE50 intake, with K&N panel filter, Advanti racing Stalker 17" rims, Sitting on Ultra Low King Springs, 'Gabriel' Ultras Lowered struts, NOW MANUAL, 3.45 LSD

9.694 @ 75.38 MPH at Mildura Drag Strip 1/8 Mile

XC Falcon project car underway......
HSVETAR is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:18 PM   #46
Laminge
Cuban... nothing like it
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Watching in amusement
Posts: 11,643
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by efgiar
cops are furakin , i aint gonna lie, i do a little bit of "hooning" here and there but the only reason is that where else are we ment to do it? we cant goto the drags and do circle work or do wat we want because they have guidlines, fair enough but that makes us want to go back onto the streets and do it because there isnt anywere else, if the cops and the government tried to work with us, not against us (hooning laws, confiscating cars etc) then it would be alot better, if they went out, bought a paddock somwere put tarmack down and set up certain guidlines for us then it would take alot of the "hoons" off the roads. instead of just giving us no were to have fun at our age they just pull us over and basicly say, no u cant have fun even if it is the only hobby u have! /me slaps cops with a large trout

To start with spell check your posts

******edited
Calder, Heathcote and DECA are some of the legal facilities provided to enjoy your car if you want to play with it under controlled environments.

If you continue your so called little hobby, I just hope you don't take out innocent people while you wrap yourself around a pole.

The cops are there to enforce road laws, Sundeep was not breaking the road law, he is upset at how he and others where treated on the night.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laminge
...its amazing how mud sticks to ones shoes, as flies do to the elderly and bottle blondes around fame and fortune...

Last edited by Laminge; 05-06-2006 at 09:07 PM. Reason: Clarification
Laminge is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:22 PM   #47
wulos
Forum Director
 
wulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Coast NSW
Posts: 5,741
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: All the behind-the-scenes effort. Technical Contributor: For members who share their technical expertise. - Issue reason: For his advice, tips/tricks in the Art and Photography section of the Forum. 
Default

It is clear that the officers behaviour was questionable - however have you also questioned WHY the officers treated people the way they did??
What actions, have you guys taken since this incident to ensure that it doesn't happen in the future. Instead of viewing the cops as your sworn blood enemies, Why not say look mate, I can understand why your going off your nut, but hey, THIS is who you really need to be focusing your attention on.
By concentrating on the cop, you are only looking at 1/2 the problem. Whilst ever there's idiot behaviour, there will be police that have to go there to stop it. Why not be proactive & stop the guys being idiots in the first place.
wulos is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:30 PM   #48
EFFalcon
Last warning
 
EFFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Mornington Peninsula, Victoria HeadCount: 3
Posts: 11,194
Default

I guess the main responsibility of the behaviour of the cruise is both individuals and the organisers.
US (eseries members) as individuals did our part in doing the right thing, i beleieve it is upto the organisers to take the next step in reguards to the behaviour of THEIR members.
and looking on their forum there has been a bit of discussion on it.

How ever, the reasons for why the cop treated people don't make a difference, its not his job to abuse people.
Look at Sunny's action and you'll see he's attempted to take the right steps, he's also trying to find others who were effected to ensure the greatest effect can be made from various sources.
I wasnt pulled over, nor were 2 other eseries members that were with me, so i can't take action against the police.

In terms of what we do in the future, we continue to organise OUR OWN cruises with a much tougher stance on the above behaviour.
__________________
FALCN6 - Turbo, Air Bag Suspension - Hibernating
EL GT - Supercharged
NASCAR - 83 Thunderbird , Bagged
DAILY - BA Fairlane Ghia, Boss 260 Turbo
OFFROADER - Ford Explorer
EFFalcon is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:49 PM   #49
Tiga_EL
Banned
 
Tiga_EL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: KNOX
Posts: 1,269
Default

Looks like it wont be long before this street per4mance club closes down either...
Tiga_EL is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:51 PM   #50
xd5.8l
Banned
 
xd5.8l's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Big concrete/cast iron jungle of the south
Posts: 346
Default

Me and the guy with the BF GT got pulled over in indian file, ********** came rushing out screaming the top of her voice 'give me your license and don't get out of the car!'. Saying that I was scared is an understatement, I literally pooed my pants. Anyway to cut a long story short I was threatened with an EPA inspection and licence confiscation if caught again.

The guy in the BF was threatened with a canary!!!!! A 3 week old GT, for gods sake!!! *****removed******

Last edited by Laminge; 05-06-2006 at 08:10 PM. Reason: Keep these type of posts up and you will be banned permantly
xd5.8l is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:57 PM   #51
FRDXR6
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
FRDXR6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 975
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EFFalcon
they took details of cars down including number plates.
so he'd have to take the EA down if that was the case.
Its now common practice for cops to take down plates of cars and send them to the EPA, who then send you a letter asking you to bring the car in.

I have a mate with an S15 who has never been pulled over or defected yet one day he got a letter from the EPA asking him to bring the car in :

Did they actually look under the bonnet, stick the ride height stick under his car etc or just a quick visual glance?
FRDXR6 is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:59 PM   #52
wulos
Forum Director
 
wulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Coast NSW
Posts: 5,741
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: All the behind-the-scenes effort. Technical Contributor: For members who share their technical expertise. - Issue reason: For his advice, tips/tricks in the Art and Photography section of the Forum. 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EFFalcon
I guess the main responsibility of the behaviour of the cruise is both individuals and the organisers.
US (eseries members) as individuals did our part in doing the right thing, i beleieve it is upto the organisers to take the next step in reguards to the behaviour of THEIR members.and looking on their forum there has been a bit of discussion on it.
In terms of what we do in the future, we continue to organise OUR OWN cruises with a much tougher stance on the above behaviour.
Could always suggest not sanctioning their cruises as an official E series event, and make it know to the organisers of the decision. These particular cruises are obviously drawing attention for bad behaviour. Whats to say that at the next one, the police haven't invited tv camera crews along. The last thing E series guys need is for their cars to be on another TT / ACA hoon story. (by merely being there in the first place you are fair game in their eyes)
Who are you going to complain to then?
wulos is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 08:02 PM   #53
wulos
Forum Director
 
wulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Coast NSW
Posts: 5,741
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: All the behind-the-scenes effort. Technical Contributor: For members who share their technical expertise. - Issue reason: For his advice, tips/tricks in the Art and Photography section of the Forum. 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xd5.8l
Me and the guy with the BF GT got pulled over in indian file, this ******* came rushing out screaming the top of her voice 'give me your license and don't get out of the car!'. Saying that I was scared is an understatement, I literally pooed my pants. Anyway to cut a long story short I was threatened with an EPA inspection and licence confiscation if caught again.
The guy in the BF was threatened with a canary!!!!! A 3 week old GT, for gods sake!!! ***removed****
A bit harsh on the namecalling & stuff mate..
wulos is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 08:03 PM   #54
EFFalcon
Last warning
 
EFFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Mornington Peninsula, Victoria HeadCount: 3
Posts: 11,194
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRDXR6
Did they actually look under the bonnet, stick the ride height stick under his car etc or just a quick visual glance?
from what i heard, quick visual inspection and hand in guard was all that was done.
__________________
FALCN6 - Turbo, Air Bag Suspension - Hibernating
EL GT - Supercharged
NASCAR - 83 Thunderbird , Bagged
DAILY - BA Fairlane Ghia, Boss 260 Turbo
OFFROADER - Ford Explorer
EFFalcon is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 08:05 PM   #55
EFFalcon
Last warning
 
EFFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Mornington Peninsula, Victoria HeadCount: 3
Posts: 11,194
Default

We havnt sanctioned their events as anything to do with us in the first place.
i went along not knowing who was going, only by chance met up with other members.
__________________
FALCN6 - Turbo, Air Bag Suspension - Hibernating
EL GT - Supercharged
NASCAR - 83 Thunderbird , Bagged
DAILY - BA Fairlane Ghia, Boss 260 Turbo
OFFROADER - Ford Explorer
EFFalcon is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 08:12 PM   #56
Laminge
Cuban... nothing like it
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Watching in amusement
Posts: 11,643
Default

Can we separate this is from e series and whats happened and get back to what Sundeep started with.

The issue at hand is how he was treated, and others, and whether this was acceptable or not, and what course of action is available
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laminge
...its amazing how mud sticks to ones shoes, as flies do to the elderly and bottle blondes around fame and fortune...
Laminge is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 08:35 PM   #57
T_Terror
The Guy You Love To Hate
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vic
Posts: 1,203
Default

Definitely put in an official complaint to Ethical Standards Department.

And get as many people as you can to as well, the more complaints the more likely the chance that disciplinary action will be taken or better yet, he'll loose his job.

Moorabin cops have a hardarse reputation, but this sounds like one guy that just isnt needed.
T_Terror is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 09:08 PM   #58
oneredED
need more boost
 
oneredED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,143
Default

Quote:
Personally I think Sunny may aswell leave it because it will go no where.

But if you feel that hard done by then attempt to go through with it I guess.
It does go places. I posted up a long while ago about a cop who abused me (i was on foot however, and had nothing to do with what i was accused of). He used the "F" word repeatedly, and was generally abusive, to the point where i thought he would get violent. I didn't end up making a complaint, but he did the same to someone else a month later, and lost his job indefinately. Turns out he was from Sydney and had been demoted to a country town for "improper conduct" or something... Haha, good luck Sunny, take it up buddy, dont let this slide.
__________________
'94 ED Falcon GLi
Suspended by: kings, koni, pedders
Rolls on: 17" AJR Director's
Stops due to: bendix, DBA
Shifter connected to: T5 manual
Power from: ???
Interior: velour and woodgrain
Cost: stuff all :P
oneredED is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 09:56 PM   #59
Polyal
Virtuous Bogan (TM)
Donating Member2
 
Polyal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: TAS
Posts: 27,540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xd5.8l
Me and the guy with the BF GT got pulled over in indian file, ********** came rushing out screaming the top of her voice 'give me your license and don't get out of the car!'. Saying that I was scared is an understatement, I literally pooed my pants. Anyway to cut a long story short I was threatened with an EPA inspection and licence confiscation if caught again.

The guy in the BF was threatened with a canary!!!!! A 3 week old GT, for gods sake!!! *****removed******
And.....what people dont realise is that the majority of people that get done for doing burnout and dragging on the streets etc are w@nkers that have no respect for anyone.

Its like when your having a bad day, a nd a toss pot of a customer comes in giving you grief over nothing, its very hard not to be sh|tty with other people after that. Now try dealing with 100's of them everyday

Unforunatley laws have to be made for the stupid minority to keep them safe, and keep others safe from them.

EFGIAR - its attitude like yours, "US vs THEM" that just makes things worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wulos
"If you lay down with dogs, you will get fleas"
Thats the best line I have heard in ages, and sums this up pretty well.
__________________
  • 2023 Mitsubishi Triton
  • 2017 Mitsubishi Pajero Sport
  • 2003 CL7 Honda Accord Euro R (JDM) - K20A 6MT
  • 1999 Lexus IS200 - 1G-FE Turbo 6MT
  • 1973 ZF Ford Fairlane
Polyal is offline  
Old 05-06-2006, 10:26 PM   #60
Bipolar
I'm back. Same car.
 
Bipolar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Queensland
Posts: 387
Default

I've met some pretty cool cops over the years. But it's like any workplace - there's always one ****er to make everyone's life harder than it has to be. If the po po responded to info received about someone doing the wrong thing and sussed out the crowd, fair enough. But not to treat you and your machine like that when you're innocent. Imagine if every cop had that power.
Take him down sundeep
Bipolar is offline  
Closed Thread


Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 07:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Other than what is legally copyrighted by the respective owners, this site is copyright www.fordforums.com.au
Positive SSL