Ford and Getrag moving away from Dry clutch Powershift to wet clutch versions and 6F - Page 2

madmelon · 26-12-2013, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Awesome, here is an automatic car, you can't drive like an automatic car.

I've got a fantastic idea on how to stop all these problems with this automatic not so automatic gearbox:

Gear lever and a clutch pedal.

Which doesn't usually have problems under 100,000km and its taught to a first year apprentice mechanic on how to pull it apart and fix and can be taken to any shop across the country for a clutch when it needs to be replaced.

Someone driving a Fiesta/Focus/Falcon/Insert any common car here is not going to care that their gearbox can change gear in under 10 milliseconds, but they're going to care when their car wont change gear anymore and its jerking at slow speeds.

Then torque converter auto for "automatic" cars.

Leave DCT for those exotic cars until it can put up with "abuse" of people driving it like an automatic car.

Maybe instead of trying to fit 500 gears inside the thing we should stick with the 6 and work on getting it to a stage where it can be driven easily and its actually reliable.

A dry clutch DCT is a far easier thing to disassemble than an AT and a wet clutch DCT isn't much harder. Behind the clutch, they're just a manual transmission really. Some have hydraulic controls, some have electric. This notion that they're extremely complex is absolute rubbish.

In fact, it's easier to remove the whole DCT transmission from the car than a manual is usually- just unbolt the bellhousing and take it off, they're splined onto the pseudo flywheel.

As for seals leaking- that's not a clutch type issue, that's a seal issue. Can happen to any transmission.

jpd80 · 26-12-2013, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmelon

As for seals leaking- that's not a clutch type issue, that's a seal issue. Can happen to any transmission.

It's still a transmission issue, one that Ford is having continuing issues with, one that was totally avoidable with a reliable 6F auto.

Franco Cozzo · 26-12-2013, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmelon

A dry clutch DCT is a far easier thing to disassemble than an AT and a wet clutch DCT isn't much harder. Behind the clutch, they're just a manual transmission really. Some have hydraulic controls, some have electric. This notion that they're extremely complex is absolute rubbish.

In fact, it's easier to remove the whole DCT transmission from the car than a manual is usually- just unbolt the bellhousing and take it off, they're splined onto the pseudo flywheel.

As for seals leaking- that's not a clutch type issue, that's a seal issue. Can happen to any transmission.

If its easy to do, why is everything so expensive and people are clueless when it comes to DCT and there are barely any workshops around which can pull the thing apart and diagnose/repair it?

GASWAGON · 26-12-2013, 02:20 PM

Well the manufacturers should be telling owners not to ride the clutches when at lights on a steep incline.....Same as a manual trans....Better off sitting in Neautral with foot on the brake and do a handbrake start...I HATE seeing drivers riding the clutch for some times 5 minutes.....So much heat is created.

Also torque convertors have come along way since early days so power loss is pretty low these days...They even 'lock up' 1.1 even the old BTR does this.....I love that feeling in my EF in 3rd when convertor locks in its like driving a manual!

madmelon · 26-12-2013, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

If its easy to do, why is everything so expensive and people are clueless when it comes to DCT and there are barely any workshops around which can pull the thing apart and diagnose/repair it?

People are scared. We've had a DQ200 wet clutch, DQ250 dry clutch, Getrag/Ford DCT250 dry clutch and a Hyundai Veloster dry clutch all pulled apart and they're not that complex. The VW have hydraulic controls so they're a bit more involved (still simpler than even a basic torque converter auto) but the other two are electric controls and are dead simple.

Clutches are expensive because the clutch suppliers can make them expensive- it's that simple. LuK is one of the biggest suppliers, they do the VW dry clutch.

ryeman · 26-12-2013, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmelon

People are scared. We've had a DQ200 wet clutch, DQ250 dry clutch, Getrag/Ford DCT250 dry clutch and a Hyundai Veloster dry clutch all pulled apart and they're not that complex. The VW have hydraulic controls so they're a bit more involved (still simpler than even a basic torque converter auto) but the other two are electric controls and are dead simple.

Clutches are expensive because the clutch suppliers can make them expensive- it's that simple. LuK is one of the biggest suppliers, they do the VW dry clutch.

Strange that VW use the seemingly more complex hydraulic system than 'plug in' solenoids unless battery voltage becomes an issue.

GASWAGON · 26-12-2013, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryeman

Strange that VW use the seemingly more complex hydraulic system than 'plug in' solenoids unless battery voltage becomes an issue.

VW are German....Of course they use the most frustrating, expensive, complex system they can find!

madmelon · 26-12-2013, 03:46 PM

Hydraulic actuation has its benefits- compared to a electromechanical system, they're typically faster.

ryeman · 26-12-2013, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmelon

Hydraulic actuation has its benefits- compared to a electromechanical system, they're typically faster.

Complexity, weight not to mention potential oil leaks for surely min gain.....makes you wonder

GASWAGON · 26-12-2013, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryeman

Complexity, weight not to mention potential oil leaks for surely min gain.....makes you wonder

No risk of electrical faults, bad solenoids etc especially when exposed to the weather and heat.

ryeman · 26-12-2013, 04:07 PM

Plug n play solenoids are common aren't they, compared to a hydraulic mess?.

GASWAGON · 26-12-2013, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryeman

Plug n play solenoids are common aren't they, compared to a hydraulic mess?.

Well yes and much cheaper too.....Hydraulic would be very complicated.

kevino · 26-12-2013, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmelon

Right, it's time to put some of the rubbish in this thread to bed.

Some of you will already be aware that I'm a mechanical design engineer working in transmission design. I have been working on DCT designs for the last two years and have had to deal with a lot of these 'issues'.

Dry clutches- Every current production manual car uses a DRY CLUTCH. They work just fine if you don't abuse them. To state that the use of a dry clutch is a dumb move by the engineers proves nothing but ignorance of automotive transmissions in general.

A dry clutch DCT is used in preference to a wet clutch for one reason- they are more efficient. An open wet clutch ALWAYS has some level of drag torque, this is inescapable. An open dry clutch has virtually zero drag torque.

As an example, The ZF 6AT has 5 wet clutches inside, three of which are open at any one time. Purely looking at the clutch drag, the order of increasing efficiency is ZF6AT (3 dragging clutches), Wet clutch DCT (1 dragging clutch), Dry clutch DCT (no dragging clutch).

There are two reasons for the issues with dry clutch DCTs: Firstly, people are told it's an automatic transmission and they drive it like a torque converter auto- holding the car on a hill by the accelerator instead of a brake, lots of start stop/creeping where the clutch has to slip and other generally damaging behaviour that people wouldn't typically perform in a manual car.

Secondly, the packaging constraints are horrendous and trying to fit a DCT width ways in an engine bay causes all sorts of problems. Effectively, what you have to do is fit two clutches and their actuators in the space that one clutch would usually fit. Now because the friction plates are basically as thin as they can be, it's the 'flywheel' part that has to pay the price and get thinner. This reduction in size sees an enormous reduction in mass and a corresponding reduction in the THERMAL CAPACITY of the 'flywheel' part. It's this reduction in thermal capacity that really compromises what can be done in a dry clutch DCT.

To compensate for the lower thermal tolerance of the smaller 'flywheel' part, other limits are made- e.g. 1st gear has to be very short so the clutch can be completely locked at a low speed to minimise the amount of slip required. Also, because there's no way of actually measuring the temperature of the clutch/flywheel the TCU uses mathematical modelling to determine when it's too hot- this would always be conservative.

If people were properly educated on how to drive a dry clutch DCT, then none of these problems would exist. Instead, everyone is told 'it's an auto' and continue their poor driving habits that a torque converter auto will tolerate.

With our Fiesta we both have or had manual cars prior.
The juddering clutch applies at take off on low throttle say following other cars. It also loses all its senses on an uphill carpark ramp and takes a couple of seconds to get itself in the right gear. 3 software patches have made no different and also the gearbox gets more erratic when it heats up.
can it be fixed and how?

GASWAGON · 26-12-2013, 05:49 PM

Only way to fix is a wet clutch trans lol!

Bossxr8 · 26-12-2013, 10:58 PM

Honda are now designing a DCT with a torque convertor on the front of it to eliminate the shudder.

My girlfriend just purchased a new Focus Titanium DSG and I've noticed it's a little shuddery at very low speeds and sometimes when taking off, but I think if you accept it's a characteristics of these types of gearboxes then it's really that minor that's it's barely an issue. It has a hill holder function so takeoffs on hills aren't a problem.

GTP534 · 27-12-2013, 09:20 AM

We've just taken delivery of a Focus Titanium. I took the Extended Warranty out on it primarily for "insurance" for any gearbox issues.

The salesman did say it's a manual transmission that shifts itself and that it was best not to be hesitant when driving off, like accelerate, lift off, accelerate.

I've found no juddering (yet) and the hill hold function is very useful.

mik · 27-12-2013, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmelon

People are scared. We've had a DQ200 wet clutch, DQ250 dry clutch, Getrag/Ford DCT250 dry clutch and a Hyundai Veloster dry clutch all pulled apart and they're not that complex. The VW have hydraulic controls so they're a bit more involved (still simpler than even a basic torque converter auto) but the other two are electric controls and are dead simple.

Clutches are expensive because the clutch suppliers can make them expensive- it's that simple. LuK is one of the biggest suppliers, they do the VW dry clutch.

Any idea what the allotted time given is to service/fit a reco clutch set up on these cars? a friend of mines bmw mini cost him 10, 000 buks ,
complex or not complex, people in this thread talking about efficiency. ............... it doesn't look all that flash we look at this modern technology and I compare it to the 4 speed btr in my au thats still kicking along at 220, 000 ks ,
having had a beating towing stuff around australia with no particular care other than servicing and a pressure adjustment in the last 6 months................. now that............. is efficiency!

ryeman · 27-12-2013, 11:15 AM

mic, personally I think reliability is traded off for efficiency (L/100) unfortunately.

mik · 27-12-2013, 11:20 AM

I think you are right ryeman , it is not an efficiency I would trade for.

mcnews · 27-12-2013, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mik

Any idea what the allotted time given is to service/fit a reco clutch set up on these cars? a friend of mines bmw mini cost him 10, 000 buks ,
complex or not complex, people in this thread talking about efficiency. ............... it doesn't look all that flash we look at this modern technology and I compare it to the 4 speed btr in my au thats still kicking along at 220, 000 ks ,
having had a beating towing stuff around australia with no particular care other than servicing and a pressure adjustment in the last 6 months................. now that............. is efficiency!

As far as I know Mini only run conventional manual gearboxes.

Yellow_Festiva · 27-12-2013, 04:14 PM

Interesting question "do these cars have issues?" and reply "none that we know of" about the Ford powershift in the Sydney telegraph, pg7 of the cars pullout.

Will be writing a nice email to them this evening...

stevz · 27-12-2013, 04:18 PM

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthre...8Ford-Focus%29

Another example of a Focus owner who's been burnt by these issues. Couldn't get out of it quicker in the end...

mik · 27-12-2013, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

As far as I know Mini only run conventional manual gearboxes.

Dunno , my bud may be confused, but I asked him if it was dsg and he said yes, I asked him if it was a bog standard brick , he said yes, I know it is a supercharged model, maybe it is just pricey on parts and labor intensive to do clutch/s?

mcnews · 27-12-2013, 06:53 PM

Supercharged model is few models ago then they went turbo. No DSG in mini ever as far as I can ascertain and the highest take up of manual gearbox by any new car buyers are mini buyers, they even had an ad campaign boasting as such. We have an r56 2009 turbo cooper s by the way, old school six speed.

Yellow_Festiva · 27-12-2013, 07:02 PM

That is a misleading reply if every I saw one. Oh the complete title reads "Twin clutch at straws"....

How many hundreds of people in Australia have had problems?? How many Thousands in other markets??

"Zero Complaints".... if they are seen as some sort of motoring authority they should be bloody well ASHAMED of themselves.

jpd80 · 27-12-2013, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Supercharged model is few models ago then they went turbo. No DSG in mini ever as far as I can ascertain and the highest take up of manual gearbox by any new car buyers are mini buyers, they even had an ad campaign boasting as such. We have an r56 2009 turbo cooper s by the way, old school six speed.

In North America, Aisin 6-speed auto with paddle shifters is optional

**Fordman1** · 27-12-2013, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

image

That is a misleading reply if every I saw one. Oh the complete title reads "Twin clutch at straws"....

How many hundreds of people in Australia have had problems?? How many Thousands in other markets??

"Zero Complaints".... if they are seen as some sort of motoring authority they should be bloody well ASHAMED of themselves.

I saw this..

"Cars guide" is a Joke.

Glover is no journalist he is a self absorbed trumpeter.

Needs a reevaluation of what he is actually contributing in that rag.

Pottinger should lift his game also.

stevz · 27-12-2013, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

image

That is a misleading reply if every I saw one. Oh the complete title reads "Twin clutch at straws"....

How many hundreds of people in Australia have had problems?? How many Thousands in other markets??

"Zero Complaints".... if they are seen as some sort of motoring authority they should be bloody well ASHAMED of themselves.

Nothing new here. The motoring media in this country has been peddling garbage for years and the gullible public sucks it all up like its gospel.
They are a large contributor to the demise of Aussie cars through their negativity campaigns and deseve to be hung for it.
I now boycott all types of print media. I refuse to contribute a single cent to these ********.

ryeman · 27-12-2013, 07:32 PM

News.....you mean cross-promoting entertainment, journalists are entertainers now.
Oops off track again......!

Yellow_Festiva · 27-12-2013, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmelon

People are scared. We've had a DQ200 wet clutch, DQ250 dry clutch, Getrag/Ford DCT250 dry clutch and a Hyundai Veloster dry clutch all pulled apart and they're not that complex. The VW have hydraulic controls so they're a bit more involved (still simpler than even a basic torque converter auto) but the other two are electric controls and are dead simple.

Clutches are expensive because the clutch suppliers can make them expensive- it's that simple. LuK is one of the biggest suppliers, they do the VW dry clutch.

People?? You mean like Ford technicians???

When I had my issues with my Focus the Ford service cetre wanted to try and charge me $660 to 'remove and inspect the transmission'... now, that to me equates to perhaps half to 3/4's of a day...

Then I would need to pay for any 'repairs'... to a transmission that was just over 3 years old and had just over 60,000km on it. Yep, it was also serviced at the 60k mark as well.

And believe me, that transmission would have had the best life you could give it, smooth, steady driving, mostly freeway and it certainly was never abused, or driven 'incorrectly' for that matter.

After much huffing and puffing Ford agreed to allow another service centre to 'repair' the transmission. The job came to 'between 6.5 - 7' thosand dollars - only to replace a clutch pack.

And you know what... when I got the car back after 2 weeks it drove out with exactly the same problem as when it went in, and no, it certinly didn't 'improve over time'.....

I questioned why it was so costly to repair. Words like 'complex', 'costly parts', 'new technology', etc were thrown around. I was also told that there is a lot of early wear and tear on them due to some part inside them being 80kg (fly wheel?? Balancing something or other??).... oh, whatever is 80kg in the diesel version is much lighter in the pertol version if that helps???

When I myself experience this rubbish first hand it really doesn't give me confidence that Ford made the right decision.

You would be bloody MAD to have this transmission out of warranty....