Ford Australia says it can’t afford an export version of its Territory large SUV

[TMC]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I read it as Detroit won't give us a market to sell too, nor do they care wether we shut or not. They have only tolerated FoA in the past because they made some money on relatively small budgets. With that not likely happening they won't tolerate it for too long.

With the Explorer going on sale in Asia soon its pretty clear the US will protect their own interests like they always do. Territory is just an inconvenience for them.

I will never buy an Explorer, especially if Ford USA, allow the closure of the local side of things.

[jpd80]

If Ford was as hard headed as people make out, local operations would have been closed down years ago.
Dearbon is actually bending over backwards to appease local needs and allowing FoA to choose its own destiny..

A business case still exists for local manufacture for now and supposedly beyond 2014
otherwise FoA wouldn't be spending money on updates for Falcon and Territory.

[FPV GTHO]

If Taurus wasn't in as much crap as we are, you'd bet it'd be alot harder for us though.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

If Taurus wasn't in as much crap as we are, you'd bet it'd be alot harder for us though.

Current Taurus is on same platform as Explorer, MKS, Flex and MKT as well as Police interceptors,
Last month, that one platform (D3) had combined sales close on 30,000.

The current Taurus is little more than a sedan body on an SUV floorpan and the future switch
to Fusion-Mondeo CD4 platform can't come quick enough, FNA will spend a fortune building
a new car that approximates Falcon in size, space and efficiency, talk about mindless duplication.....

[RPO83]

Ford Australia are focused on the last model cycle of the Falcon/Territory, spending time on a high volume export program is a waste of investment now.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by teak81

Australia needs to make it harder for vehicles to be imported into this country.

OR.....

How about making it easier to buy new cars with a "second hand car" tax that goes to lowering the cost of new Australian made cars.

e.g. say 20% UCT (used car tax) like LCT on any second hand car so if you buy an old car for say $5k for pay $1k towards lowering the cost of someone else's new GT.

If the price of a new GT was down around $30k and a new XR6T was $20k then they would sell lots of them over the imports.

Just think....a 4 year old GT for $15k plus $3k UCT.......bargain......

Or do you think that someone else should have to carry the costs, that is anyone except you........

N.B. the you of whom I speak is everyone who reads this post, not the OP.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by flappist

OR.....

How about making it easier to buy new cars with a "second hand car" tax that goes to lowering the cost of new Australian made cars.

e.g. say 20% UCT (used car tax) like LCT on any second hand car so if you buy an old car for say $5k for pay $1k towards lowering the cost of someone else's new GT.

If the price of a new GT was down around $30k and a new XR6T was $20k then they would sell lots of them over the imports.

Just think....a 4 year old GT for $15k plus $3k UCT.......bargain......

Or do you think that someone else should have to carry the costs, that is anyone except you........

N.B. the you of whom I speak is everyone who reads this post, not the OP.

Taxes Taxes Taxes, bloody hell tax on this... tax on that... tax on tax..I'm sick of working paying too many taxes to subsidise everything including your proposal.

[FLCNFAN]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I can't see how or why they can't export the Territory to India for example. It is developing into a huge new car market.

Won't fly mate. Ford had trouble selling the Mondeos some years back(admittedly, the market wasn't as mature then), because Indian buying public felt that the badge(they don't care much about the car) didn't have the oomph for what was a luxury car for the Indian market at that time( at that price point). Ford would never be able to price it competitively and it would end up fighting against BMW's and Land Rovers. Ford badge just doesn't have the street cred in India, other than in the volume, budget segment.

FoA should probably look to elongate the platform and create a GMC Suburban challenger to sell in the middle east. Would sell !

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by flappist

OR.....

How about

No

I'm not subsidising someone's $70k GT because I can only afford $10k on a used car and don't want to subject myself to a Chery.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

No

I'm not subsidising someone's $70k GT because I can only afford $10k on a used car and don't want to subject myself to a Chery.

Well why don't you read what I wrote instead of stopping on the first line.

The GT would be $35k not $70k and your $10k would get you a 3 year old XR6T not a 10 year old XR6.....

[madmelon]

"Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously."

Ford Australia have been sowing sparingly for 30 years and it would seem (given by what Sinead Phipps said to the journos in response to Abbot's call to develop an export vehicle) that they are unwilling to ever risk sowing richly. Hence, Ford Australia will never produce more than an orphan in this country.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

OR.....

How about making it easier to buy new cars with a "second hand car" tax that goes to lowering the cost of new Australian made cars.

e.g. say 20% UCT (used car tax) like LCT on any second hand car so if you buy an old car for say $5k for pay $1k towards lowering the cost of someone else's new GT.

If the price of a new GT was down around $30k and a new XR6T was $20k then they would sell lots of them over the imports.

Just think....a 4 year old GT for $15k plus $3k UCT.......bargain......

Or do you think that someone else should have to carry the costs, that is anyone except you........

N.B. the you of whom I speak is everyone who reads this post, not the OP.

How about the government remove GST from new vehicles built in Australia.
Most fleets and businesses don't pay it anyway......

Flappist,
Maybe Tax Reform should have extended to replacing state govt stamp duties with GST?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jpd80

How about the government remove GST from new vehicles built in Australia.
Most fleets and businesses don't pay it anyway......

Flappist,
Maybe Tax Reform should have extended to replacing state govt stamp duties with GST?

Yeh I know, there are a squillion things that could be manipulated. My post's purpose was to highlight that point that the reason why things are the way they are is because regardless of what plan is proposed the primary issue in almost everyone's mind is "Will this affect me in a negative way right now even slightly regardless of how much good it may do for everyone including me in the future".

Oh and all businesses pay GST on their vehicles. True it can be claimed as credits if the vehicles is used for business but when it is traded or sold there is GST payable on the sale.

How this affects the topic. The problem is scale. If squillions of Terri/falcons were sold domestically then the per unit cost for development would be lower and therefore subsidise the development costs of an export model.

[jpd80]

Thanks Flappist, I think we both agree that there are way that tax structure and collection could be changed
to encourage the purchase of new Australian vehicles butthe government and critics would see
any move like that as another form of additional subsidy. The cynic in me thinks that may be so...

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by FLCNFAN

FoA should probably look to elongate the platform and create a GMC Suburban challenger to sell in the middle east. Would sell !

I posed this exact question about a month ago and people bagged the idea and started carrying on about how it wouldnt be as good off-road as a Landcruiser...like that even matters it certainly doesnt matter to the Territory's sales...

[Flat Top]

the middle east wants it???? LHD South Africa wants it?? just check around pacific RIM .
Increased Duty on Imports to offset exchange rate problem would drive things along. Don we have a FREE TRADE agreement with the USA? (west coast )
Their Kuga/escape is smaller?

[samos]

Originally Posted by FLCNFAN

.... Ford would never be able to price it competitively and it would end up fighting against BMW's and Land Rovers. Ford badge just doesn't have the street cred in India, other than in the volume, budget segment....

Here's an idea, target each of the top models of falcons and territories to the Indian market as Lincolns

Then the badge can carry the cred....

Having been to India a few times over the last ten years, I do believe that large cars, but absolutely the territory would do very very well indeed over there.... They have plenty of middle, upper middle and higher bracket ppl more than willing to buy big and or luxury cars...

[SJG351]

Guys, arent we talking about the future of Ford Australia and its manufacturing partners? So why not source the tooling from the US and make RHD versions of what is coming down the US lines? How is that not viable? Made in Australia still!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SJG351

Guys, arent we talking about the future of Ford Australia and its manufacturing partners? So why not source the tooling from the US and make RHD versions of what is coming down the US lines? How is that not viable? Made in Australia still!

Look at the Cruze, in order to manufacture it locally, Holden had to spend
$500 million in order to receive $149 million from the government.

At the moment, the cost of implementing RHD versions of global cars and
SUVs is probably more expensive than evolving our two locals...

The biggest threat to FoA manufacturing is the efficiency of Ford's Thailand plant,
rather than changing Broadmeadows, it's probably cheaper to add a line to Thailand.

We all just have to sit tight until we see the updated vehicles next year.

[SJG351]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Look at the Cruze, in order to manufacture it locally, Holden had to spend
$500 million in order to receive $149 million from the government.

At the moment, the cost of implementing RHD versions of global cars and
SUVs is probably more expensive than evolving our two locals...

The biggest threat to FoA manufacturing is the efficiency of Ford's Thailand plant,
rather than changing Broadmeadows, it's probably cheaper to add a line to Thailand.

We all just have to sit tight until we see the updated vehicles next year.

Seriously $500 million? Well the answer is simple! we revert bact to a production model that is affordable to manufacture and the tooling is still in the back shed, eg an ecoboost xf

[imugli]

Why the hell should the Australian government do anything at all to encourage buyers to purchase australian made vehicles if those vehicles do not suit their needs or desires? If Ford and Holden want Australians to buy Australian made cars, here's a novel idea - build cars that Australian's want to buy! It's not rocket science.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SJG351

Seriously $500 million? Well the answer is simple! we revert bact to a production model that is affordable to manufacture and the tooling is still in the back shed, eg an ecoboost xf

You know the real kicker, GM bosses stood up in front of the US government and told them
that without cruze funding ($500 million) Holden's Elizabeth plant was unsustainable...

I'm glad they survived but have to wonder how they are making ends meet and now stories
of Commodore Evoke for under $35,000.

[arronm]

Originally Posted by imugli

Why the hell should the Australian government do anything at all to encourage buyers to purchase australian made vehicles if those vehicles do not suit their needs or desires? If Ford and Holden want Australians to buy Australian made cars, here's a novel idea - build cars that Australian's want to buy! It's not rocket science.

Yep I want an FG wagon please. But now I have to drive around in a Sportwagon.
Still an Australian car though.

[imugli]

Originally Posted by arronm

Yep I want an FG wagon please. But now I have to drive around in a Sportwagon.
Still an Australian car though.

Obviously a vehicle that suits your needs and / or your desires. Great.

[gokhan]

Originally Posted by imugli

Why the hell should the Australian government do anything at all to encourage buyers to purchase australian made vehicles if those vehicles do not suit their needs or desires? If Ford and Holden want Australians to buy Australian made cars, here's a novel idea - build cars that Australian's want to buy! It's not rocket science.

Bit of a Catch-22, if the Australian government subsidised the locals as much as other country's governments subsidies their car makers maybe Fords/Holden/Toyota would be building more of what the buying public want...

[imugli]

The US Government subsidise Hybrid cars to the tune of about $7k, and they STILL can't convince Americans to buy them. Why (besides the fact that it's a Prius)? Because they don't suit most people's desires or needs. Even with 7k on the bonnet, Toyota are struggling to meet their goals for Prius in USA this year.

You cannot simply "Buy" a market. It's throwing good money after bad.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by imugli

The US Government subsidise Hybrid cars to the tune of about $7k, and they STILL can't convince Americans to buy them. Why (besides the fact that it's a Prius)? Because they don't suit most people's desires or needs. Even with 7k on the bonnet, Toyota are struggling to meet their goals for Prius in USA this year.

You cannot simply "Buy" a market. It's throwing good money after bad.

Last time I looked, Prius was selling in pretty impressive numbers in the USA , 22,140 in March alone..

At the same time, Ford sold over 8,000 hybrids and EVs while GM was over 4,000....

If you want to encourage new technology and independence from oil, there has to be
some incentive to manufacturers to deliver that technology to buyers at affordable prices..

[Elks]

On the contrary our government has encouraged a whole class of imported vehicles.

The Fringe Benefits Tax or FBT that is applied to company cars and the user chooser novated lease cars now applies at the rate of 20% per annum so on a $50,000 vehicle that's 10,000 per annum. Using the most commonly applied "statutory method". This was recently increased from its most commonly applied 11% ( for vehicles travelling $25,000+ km pa) by our Govt after pressure from the greens.

However, FBT does not apply to vehicles with a carrying capacity of 1 tonne or more, or a separate tray body. This is to exempt plumbers vans etc. Also excluded in this exemption therefore includes all the twin cab utes.

This manifests itself in a real world example, where my old work took all the sales reps out of Commodores and Camrys and put them in D-max twin cab utes because, despite the fact the were $10k dearer to buy, the FBT exemption made them cheaper overall.

This has driven demand, which has driven product improvements and viola, Ranger, Hilux, Triton BT50, ALL are now in the top ten selling cars in the country. That's not to mention, Colorado, Dmax and even the euros with Amorok. Are selling well. I wonder how long it will take Benz and BMW to get in on the act.?

So government policy can influence demand. It's just our government chose to send that demand offshore.

[GTP534]

Well here's another article on ninemsn which is just going to add to peoples perception that Ford will stop local manufacturing after 2016. I note that there are no quotation marks so could just be hearsay.

http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbu...ian-operations

Seems like Ford still don't want to come out publicly with any statement so it's interesting that this gets turned around that it is Ford itself casting doubts.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by GTP534

Well here's another article on ninemsn which is just going to add to peoples perception that Ford will stop local manufacturing after 2016. I note that there are no quotation marks so could just be hearsay.

http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbu...ian-operations

Seems like Ford still don't want to come out publicly with any statement so it's interesting that this gets turned around that it is Ford itself casting doubts.

Well first off, it's Ford policy not to talk about a future Falcon before the next one (2014) is released,
that's because Ford wants the government to cough up for funding towards Euro 5 for post 2016
so Ford announcing a post 2016 Falcon before funding is secured would be a tactical error..

In terms of difficulty, Euro 3 to Euro 4 was arguably a bigger jump then Euro 4 to Euro 5,
so I'd say that the cost of post 2016 emission updates is going to be a relatively small amount
but also contingent on the emissions lab being upgraded to Euro 5 and 6 evaluation standard.

So there's some essential pre-steps and funding to do before Ford can announce anything
and as we all know, nothing is certain.

Predicting which models and equipment a manufacturer wants to run with more than
two years out has to be a real leap of faith / stab in the dark especially if it's wrong.