Ethenol fuel the con.

[trbo 6]

There are pros and cons in using ethanol based fuels, but saying the fuel is rubbish is wrong!

Corrosive – Yes ethanol is corrosive, but so is unleaded. Fuel companies are required to use corrosion inhibitors in both fuels.

Forests will be replaced with ethanol crops – you seriously think they will knock down forests with ethanol crops? Even if they did, the plants that replaced the trees would still produce oxygen, so we would still have air to breath.

hygroscopic – it will absorb a small amount water from the air in an open container over a long period, but in a fuel tank vapors are created which allow only minimal air into the tank and therefore only a minute amount of water absorbed into the fuel over a long period of time.

Fuel consumption – You will definitely use more fuel with any mix of ethanol, but we are using a renewable source of fuel and as technology gets better in producing this fuel we will be able to create the fuel from just about any waste vegetation. So until we can start growing oil, ethanol sounds like a pretty good alternative.

[ryeman]

If you want power LPI
if you want anti knock LPI
if you want a cleaner engine LPI
if you want economy LPI
If you want everything LPI
I think that just about covers it.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by jimmyxr6t04

my WM caprice is e85 compatible and here are my findings...

98ron fuel i average between 12-13L/100. Cost in canberra is up around 1.66 per litre. Usually get 490-530km per tank...

e10 i average 12.5-13.5L/100 with the cost being about 1.50. Usually get 450-520 per tank

e85 i average about 15-16l/100 with the cost being about 1.30. Usually good for 350-420 per tank


E85 was roughly on par with 98 in terms of cost per km. But the car pulled so much harder and felt a lot more responsive than 98.

I usually fill up with a mix of 95 or e10... 95 and e10 give me the best mileage and probably works out cheaper in the long run. E85 gives me a tank of fun!

IF E85 pricing worked out to be the equivelant cost of e10 per km, i'd use it all the time.

I'm hoping that FPV make the GT/GS cars E85 compatible in the near future... I'd love a tuned GT on e85....

Not sure how people can't see the value in e10 though? for my caprice, it works out to be the cheapest fuel to use per km... Performance between 98 and e10 is barely any different in my car. As such, i'll usually run 95 and throw the odd e10 or e85 in it.

Good info in this post and is what I would expect from a flex fuel car. Being flex fuel the ecu knows what the ethanol content of the fuel is and changes the fuel delivery to suit, it also adjust the spark tables to take advantage of the higher octane fuel and deliver more power.

Unfortunately this can only happen on a flex fuel car so just adding high ethanol content fuel to a car not designed for it can be a pointless exercise depending on the cost of the fuel, because any fuel with ethanol in it will need more fuel to do the same amount of work when compared to unleaded petrol, anyone who says different has not recorded their data correctly. Once a car is custom tuned to suit the fuel it can experience a power increase.

Another thing to remember is that E10 fuels vary with their octane rating, it can be 95, 98 or even 100 octane.

The ford ECU does not add spark based on a higher octane fuel being used, it will only pull spark when a knock event has been identified.

[trbo 6]

Originally Posted by cheap

Pray tell how can e10/e85/e100 possibly make more power than conventional gasoline?

Here is the BTU for the various blends.

Fuel BTU/unit (all in US gallons)
Gasoline (base) 114,000 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E100) 76,100 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E85) 81,800 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E10) 111,836 BTU/gal

Other fuel types:

Diesel 129,500 BTU/gal
Biodiesel (B100) 118,300 BTU/gal
Biodiesel (B20) 127,250 BTU/gal
Liquid natural gas (LNG) 75,000 BTU/gal

In general terms the more BTU's per fuel type then the more bang per drop and the better mileage, hence why diesel gets better mileage and why LNG needs roughly twice the gallons as regular gasoline to go the same distance.

Gas has an energy density of 46MJ/kg, e85 has 33MJ/kg, so at stoich ratio’s of each fuel the energy output not taking into account VE or BSFC is:

For Gas = 46MJ/kg / 14.7 (stoich) = 3.13MJ/kg of air fuel mixture
For E85 = 33MJ/kg / 9.77 (stoich) = 3.38MJ/kg of air fuel mixture

[2011G6E]

Energy negative, massively taxpayer subsidised fuel additives are never the answer...and those who think mandating an ethanol level in all fuel and doing away with "normal" unleaded will be in for a nasty shock when the government drops the subsidy once everyone has no choice but to use it...as they did with LP Gas...

[burnz]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

image

Energy negative, massively taxpayer subsidised fuel additives are never the answer...and those who think mandating an ethanol level in all fuel and doing away with "normal" unleaded will be in for a nasty shock when the government drops the subsidy once everyone has no choice but to use it...as they did with LP Gas...

have you worked out how much energy it take's to get oil out of the ground?

[flappist]

There seem to be quite a number of mechanical and chemical engineers in this thread.

Almost all of the posts are partly right and partly wrong.

Engines are optimised for a particular fuel type which is why some are slightly different while others are totally different.

Fuels have many more characteristics than "how much power can I get before detonation" and no one fuel is superior to all others in every way.

Jet dragsters run on kerosene.
Top fuelers run on Nitro Methane.

Here is a point to consider.

If the law was changed so that all domestic vehicle fuels i.e. ULP, PULP, 98, E10, E85, LPG and Diesel were all fixed at exactly the same price per litre which fuel would you run your car on?

[Tickford Rebel]

Originally Posted by trbo 6

In Australia it's made from sugar cane.

Shhhh don't tell anyone but I work for a Very large company that manufactures Malt for Beer... We export world wide and sell to Australian Brewers... We germinate Barley and then roast it into Malt. The bi product ( or Colmings ) gets used to produce none other than ETHENOL!!! But yeah its a secret for some reason

[burnz]

Originally Posted by flappist

There seem to be quite a number of mechanical and chemical engineers in this thread.

Almost all of the posts are partly right and partly wrong.

Engines are optimised for a particular fuel type which is why some are slightly different while others are totally different.

Fuels have many more characteristics than "how much power can I get before detonation" and no one fuel is superior to all others in every way.

Jet dragsters run on kerosene.
Top fuelers run on Nitro Methane.

Here is a point to consider.

If the law was changed so that all domestic vehicle fuels i.e. ULP, PULP, 98, E10, E85, LPG and Diesel were all fixed at exactly the same price per litre which fuel would you run your car on?

fixed price im already using it.

[ryeman]

LPG subsidised ?
That's news to me, seeing it is a free 'waste' product that had to be 'disposed' of.
Even after the full tax is eventually applied I expect it to remain a great option at lest in Melbourne and surrounds.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by ryeman

LPG subsidised ?
That's news to me, seeing it is a free 'waste' product that had to be 'disposed' of.
Even after the full tax is eventually applied I expect it to remain a great option at lest in Melbourne and surrounds.

diesel is a by product (pre sulphur)

gas is the same price as diesel per kilometre. (until tax kick in)
then the oil Co will parity it.

[CAT600]

People whinging about ethanol being subsidised wont change anything.

If you are building a high powered forced induction car then E85 has no peer for power unless you count E98.

Its nothing like Methanol for corrosiveness, if you update the lines and filters the rest of the car is quite compatible the only thing is keep an eye on your exhaust housings after a few years in short stop-start trips.

The upside of Ethanol is emissions.... with precious metals getting harder to find and therefore more expensive the cost effectivness of ethanol gets a shot in the arm. For those worried about the $ per litre... even when the subsidy ends and the price goes up to the same as gasoline you can always revert to PULP as a daily fuel and just switch the Ethanol in for dyno/track... its a lot harder to do that when you go dedicated LPG.

Diesel (as good as it is) will only get more expensive to own and operate as the downward pressure on NOX emissions starts to take its toll.... Diesel emission technology is getting hammered right now with so many attempts to meet ever tightening targets.... the genuine DPF's on on-highway trucks are $10,000 to replace if they fail self-clean test.

Its a con?.... compared to what?....

The rediculous roadrules we must endure?
The amount of tax we pay in Australia between income, GST and capital gains?
The amount of entitlement that an asylum seeker is eligible for?.. more than a taxpaying pensioner?
The stamp duties on houses and cars, forcing the price of an import up over 50%?
The exorbitant price of land thesedays?... $250,000+ for 450m2 over 30kms from the city?

Ethanol is the least of our worries, especially when compared to all of the above it has some benefits to it.

Daniel

[Nikked]

I find it funny that the Model T was a flex fuel vehicle...it could run on Ethanol...until prohibition...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by CAT600

People whinging about ethanol being subsidised wont change anything.

If you are building a high powered forced induction car then E85 has no peer for power unless you count E98.

Its nothing like Methanol for corrosiveness, if you update the lines and filters the rest of the car is quite compatible the only thing is keep an eye on your exhaust housings after a few years in short stop-start trips.

The upside of Ethanol is emissions.... with precious metals getting harder to find and therefore more expensive the cost effectivness of ethanol gets a shot in the arm. For those worried about the $ per litre... even when the subsidy ends and the price goes up to the same as gasoline you can always revert to PULP as a daily fuel and just switch the Ethanol in for dyno/track... its a lot harder to do that when you go dedicated LPG.

Diesel (as good as it is) will only get more expensive to own and operate as the downward pressure on NOX emissions starts to take its toll.... Diesel emission technology is getting hammered right now with so many attempts to meet ever tightening targets.... the genuine DPF's on on-highway trucks are $10,000 to replace if they fail self-clean test.

Its a con?.... compared to what?....

The rediculous roadrules we must endure?
The amount of tax we pay in Australia between income, GST and capital gains?
The amount of entitlement that an asylum seeker is eligible for?.. more than a taxpaying pensioner?
The stamp duties on houses and cars, forcing the price of an import up over 50%?
The exorbitant price of land thesedays?... $250,000+ for 450m2 over 30kms from the city?

Ethanol is the least of our worries, especially when compared to all of the above it has some benefits to it.

Daniel

Well actually hydrogen and LOX is much better for power production and has no pollution whatsoever. Hydrogen and air is nearly as good but HCN might be a bit of an issue.
Of course these are even sillier than LPG with regard to logistics.........

[Crazy Dazz]

Industrial Ethanol in Australia is mostly produced from waste, grain and cane by-products of other processes.
Debate about which fuel is best for performance are pointless, as it depends entirely on what your engine was built for. An unleaded engine running on LPG will be less powerful and less “economic” per litre, however the same engine optimised to run on LPG produces more power and better economy. It is entirely the same for ethanol blends.

The point with ethanol is that it is a renewable resource. When all the fossil fuel is depleted, I don’t know if biofuel capacity will be enough to match current usage levels, but at least it will be something. Often times government needs to subsidise emergent technologies to encourage uptake and investment in R&D. If the government had not subsidised LPG installations, we may not now have the brilliant ecoli engines.

[CAT600]

Yes Liquid Hyd and Oxy is the go... but im waiting for them to appear at the bowser... i'm told WA will get E85 on pump before them.

I wont hold my breath for any of them.

Daniel

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by T4ME

Your post is a little hard to decipher do you mean E85 or E10 is pointless in your application.

Why is E10 junk?

E10 is only a few cents cheaper than 91, and it gets less mileage than normal 91 in the cars we've used it in.

E85 is great, when you have a car which is tuned for it, which most likely would only be something thats got forced induction happening.

For me, diesel all the way

The problem with the latest diesels is all this crap like SCR systems (Volkswagen Ad Blue, Mercedes Blue Efficiency etc), I think its called "urea injection" where you have this fluid which needs to be replaced every service for emissions regulations, and DPFs.

These seem to be half assed and rushed at the moment and cause problems, until they perfect the technology it seems emissions regulations are getting too hard too fast.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

...Debate about which fuel is best for performance are pointless, as it depends entirely on what your engine was built for. An unleaded engine running on LPG will be less powerful and less “economic” per litre, however the same engine optimised to run on LPG produces more power and better economy. It is entirely the same for ethanol blends...

You wont get a Diesel or Gasoline engine to make the power that Ethanol can for the same give engine size and capacity... Diesel relies on high compression to fire which in turn needs very heavy duty compoentry ergo low rpm = low horsepower production irrespective of torque capability and Gasoline does not have the octane rating to allow high boost or static comp without cheap/dangerous additives like TEL... thats before we get to the point that Ethanol has 35% oxygen available for release in combustion

LPG... well people say it makes a lot of power but I havent seen it done successfully yet, heavy stoich liquid fuels still rule the dyno and the blacktop.

Daniel

[Franco Cozzo]

If you want to see high powered diesel, check out a "Diesel Power" magazine in the news agent, it seems those Cummins 6bt 5.9L diesel engines can make around 500hp with a few mods and more even still depending on how fat your wallet is (isn't that true with everything though?).

Pretty crazy seeing something like a full weight Dodge Ram which can run a 12 second quarter mile.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

If you want to see high powered diesel, check out a "Diesel Power" magazine in the news agent, it seems those Cummins 6bt 5.9L diesel engines can make around 500hp with a few mods and more even still depending on how fat your wallet is (isn't that true with everything though?).

Pretty crazy seeing something like a full weight Dodge Ram which can run a 12 second quarter mile.

I agree with the point that Diesel can make power, but if you get a 5.9L capacity gasoline-style engine and stick the same amount of boost in with pure ethanol (if ethanol will tolerate 50psi that is ) then you would see more like 2000hp just through rpm and the oxygen in the fuel.

Its a shame what the world is doing to diesel, its a truly remarkable fuel with the amount of energy that can be harnessed from each litre.

Daniel

[2011G6E]

Fossil fuels like oil and coal are staggeringly energy-positive. That's why they're pretty much irreplaceable in a real sense, until some sort of catalyst can be developed to make ethanol and hydrogen production cheaper and easier and lower the energy needed to produce it to a fraction of the energy contained in the end product.
Hydrogen is an amazing fuel, but has some rather large problems...storage is a real issue, and the tank in your car is massive, not to mention with current production methods it is also extremely energy negative (takes more energy to make than you get in the end product).

[chamb0]

Originally Posted by CAT600

The rediculous roadrules we must endure?
The amount of tax we pay in Australia between income, GST and capital gains?
The amount of entitlement that an asylum seeker is eligible for?.. more than a taxpaying pensioner?
The stamp duties on houses and cars, forcing the price of an import up over 50%?
The exorbitant price of land thesedays?... $250,000+ for 450m2 over 30kms from the city?

Agree with you except for one point - no need to perpetuate a damaging myth to make a point :(

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/letters...9/le090507.htm

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by CAT600

You wont get a Diesel or Gasoline engine to make the power that Ethanol can for the same give engine size and capacity... Diesel relies on high compression to fire which in turn needs very heavy duty compoentry ergo low rpm = low horsepower production irrespective of torque capability and Gasoline does not have the octane rating to allow high boost or static comp without cheap/dangerous additives like TEL... thats before we get to the point that Ethanol has 35% oxygen available for release in combustion

LPG... well people say it makes a lot of power but I havent seen it done successfully yet, heavy stoich liquid fuels still rule the dyno and the blacktop.

Daniel

Ethanol does NOT have oxygen available for release in combustion, in fact exactly the opposite. The hydrocarbons in ethanol are already partially oxidised.
The only way to strip the oxygen is an anaerobic reaction which would then produce Carbon. Ethanol is a clean fuel because it’s carbon chains are simple, and it contains no sulphur, nitrogen, or metals.
It’s carbon neutral, not because it produces less carbon emissions, but because it is only releasing carbon that has been captured from the atmosphere.

As I said, making claims about the performance of ethanol fuelled engines against petrol is irrelevant. For starters the definition of “petrol” is very broad and so could include some of the more exotic fuels.
Secondly, nobody CARES how much power your dragster is putting out, the debate is about using ethanol as a mass market fuel.
Finally, as I said, it depends on what your engine is designed for. If you put E85 or 100 into an engine designed to run on regular unleaded, it may not even match the regular performance, but bump the cam and compression up, and the higher RON fuels come into their own.
It’s my limited understanding that the best engines for “flexi” fuelling are turbo-charged with ECU controlled boost. Saab was a long term pioneer of such engines.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Ethanol does NOT have oxygen available for release in combustion, in fact exactly the opposite. The hydrocarbons in ethanol are already partially oxidised.
The only way to strip the oxygen is an anaerobic reaction which would then produce Carbon. Ethanol is a clean fuel because it’s carbon chains are simple, and it contains no sulphur, nitrogen, or metals.
It’s carbon neutral, not because it produces less carbon emissions, but because it is only releasing carbon that has been captured from the atmosphere.

As I said, making claims about the performance of ethanol fuelled engines against petrol is irrelevant. For starters the definition of “petrol” is very broad and so could include some of the more exotic fuels.
Secondly, nobody CARES how much power your dragster is putting out, the debate is about using ethanol as a mass market fuel.
Finally, as I said, it depends on what your engine is designed for. If you put E85 or 100 into an engine designed to run on regular unleaded, it may not even match the regular performance, but bump the cam and compression up, and the higher RON fuels come into their own.
It’s my limited understanding that the best engines for “flexi” fuelling are turbo-charged with ECU controlled boost. Saab was a long term pioneer of such engines.

Oxygenates are proven to complete the burn which when you are shoving 10 x as much volume of liquid in the cylinder at 20-30psi of boost... it is sure going to make you more power... have a look how dirty a diesel is when you do that, so they add N2O to diesels to clean up the combustion.

I didnt say the engine would make 35% more power the oxygen isnt there for that purpose.

No, the claims are not irrelevant because if you want to make 400hp from a 2L turbo engine you wont be able to do it with an OEM durability on 92-98 octane gasoline... but you can on E85 ethanol.

Nobody cares about power and the uses of Ethanol?..... stick your head in the F6 and XR6T subforum for half an hour mate.

Daniel

[ratter]

LPG does not produce the same power as E85 when the engine is tuned for the fuel

[ebxr8240]

Should state what car / engine and combo we have..
I highly doubt a XA/ XB 250 would run very good on it..
But any late model forced induction car will..
The only thing a bout Ethanol is the pricing ...
That's NOT an ethanol issue its the service stations and petrol companies..

Another thing to consider is I would rather our hard earned $$ stay in this country
than some rich Arab.. Imo Ethanol fuels should be in competition to petrol companies
to encourage competition.. The oil companies are taking us for a ride with bugger all competition !! Gov doesn't care too much they are STILL getting their cut $$..

[ryeman]

Drag racing is a bit specific.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by ryeman

Drag racing is a bit specific.

And you would therefore argue the merits of the fuel on that?

A 20:1 compression, direct injection spark ignition engine on E98 ethanol is more ecomical than a 11:1 pulp engine.... yet nobody offers one?

As mentioned further up ^^ if the technology is subsidised to allow its growth then the ensuing consumer uptake can drive further technology breakthoughs and improvments.

LPG would be nowhere without this strategy. I would love to see Ethanol continue to expand for the reasons Graeme listed above, as well as the fact that LPG and Ethanol will be two products that allow humanity to breach the gulf between Fossil Fuels and the "next big thing" whatever that may be.

Daniel

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Should state what car / engine and combo we have..
I highly doubt a XA/ XB 250 would run very good on it..
But any late model forced induction car will..
The only thing a bout Ethanol is the pricing ...
That's NOT an ethanol issue its the service stations and petrol companies..

Another thing to consider is I would rather our hard earned $$ stay in this country
than some rich Arab.. Imo Ethanol fuels should be in competition to petrol companies
to encourage competition.. The oil companies are taking us for a ride with bugger all competition !! Gov doesn't care too much they are STILL getting their cut $$..

That is all well and good but I read quite a few white papers on this some years ago and the bottom line was if we used all the cane and grain we are capable of growing in our country for ethanol we would only be able to supply about 4% of fuel usage.

Of course this would really fall on its bum during the next dry period of the climate cycle.

We have the worlds largest deposits of Uranium. How about using some of that and working on technology to make it safe.

Now I know that the greenie loonies will just scream "radiation, hiroshima, chenobyl, fukashima" and run around in circles singing songs and waving plackards made out of recycled dole cheques but there was once a time when most ships sank whenever there was a storm and many jet airliners exploded in flight and infection killed most surgical patients etc. etc. etc.

Hey if we can make safe uranium powered cars then WE will be the energy barons and the "world police" will be invading Melbourne, Sydney and Canberra to oust the insane dictators.......

[ratter]

Originally Posted by flappist

Hey if we can make safe uranium powered cars then WE will be the energy barons and the "world police" will be invading Melbourne, Sydney and Canberra to oust the insane dictators.......

sounds like a plan