Hypothetical: Post 2015 Falcon

[Polyal]

Id love to say option 2 jpd80 but I for one am sick of hearing about the demise of the falcon etc etc. Link it into a brand or model line that is more secure and you remove this stigma that the media love to beat up on, and like it or not this does effect the brands perceived worth.

FWD/AWD Falcon is a waste of time. FWD will kill the performance models, in which IMO the Falcon name relies on (and again it just becomes a bigger...just..mondeo). AWD adds more weight and complexity for little gain, and in theory higher consumption.

There has to be room for a GRWD car in the Ford empire that can cater for multiple market segments and countries. Much the same has BMW does with the 5 series for example. Im not talking about the same quality (although its not out of the question), im talking about the concept of huge build numbers lower costs and increases content quality.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

You dont seriously think for 1 min they're not acutely aware of what customers want?

Do you really think the answers lie on here and they are oblivious to it?

You do realise they spend millions a year researching and surveying REAL quantified customers, not anonymous Internet "experts" who are maybe just school kids or people who'll never buy a new car anyway...
Sometimes, actually most of the time the cost to deliver those expectations far outweighs the return on investment or the risk of investment..

1. I think, THEY think they know what customers want. A little difference there.

The problem with your blanket statment about internet 'experts' is worrying. Most of us have been buying and will continue to buy these vehicles, so i guess we are real world test subjects. If they don't get onto these forums, read, listen to problems, try to solve issues, then they are kidding themselves.

[Dr Smith]

I think the fact a new Focus has "active park assist" highlights the issues between a Falcon and it's globally sold siblings. A $50K+ Falcon should not be out featured by a cheaper model in its own stable. Ford Oz needs to leverage these features into Falcon and sadly a local-only model won't have the budget to get these features or will require a big jump in sales price to cover their cost. I'm realistic to understand why my next new locally built Ford doesn't have the tech features of a Mondeo or Focus however superior road performance and 5 seater capacity eventually won't be enough to sell more down the track.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by ivorya

1. I think, THEY think they know what customers want. A little difference there.

The problem with your blanket statment about internet 'experts' is worrying. Most of us have been buying and will continue to buy these vehicles, so i guess we are real world test subjects. If they don't get onto these forums, read, listen to problems, try to solve issues, then they are kidding themselves.

Feedback is completely pointless unless you can acurately verify and qualify exactly who is providing it.. and what their future buying potential is...

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I dont think FoA even have to do the bulk of the work, just pinch whatever platform is made to reintroduce Lincoln (im repeating from another thread); but that brand is key for me.

Probably not an option, any lincoln platform would probably be too expensive for use in a Falcon. Otherwise they could just use an updated DEW98 as used by Jaguar.

The problem is, that platform is all alloy, which increases costs significantly, thats why a base model XF costs about as much as a GT-P.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Probably not an option, any lincoln platform would probably be too expensive for use in a Falcon. Otherwise they could just use an updated DEW98 as used by Jaguar.

The problem is, that platform is all alloy, which increases costs significantly, thats why a base model XF costs about as much as a GT-P.

Perhaps, or do greater numbers reduce the cost, and there is our weight saving without doing it on individual components. What would the cost of that platform be when financed over what, 4 times it currently does? Heaps more than that actually.

Regardless of material used, a GWRD car just makes sense, but Ive been called crazy among other colorful things before.

[Franco Cozzo]

- Transverse engine setup, non sports model Falcons will be FWD, sports models will be AWD. No more V8, thats Holden's territory, you want V8 you buy Holden, simple. That was a mistake in the 80s, but back then anything without a V8 was slow as crap unless it was a jap import. We've got 20 years plus worth of technology with forced induction, lets use it.

- Build quality is getting an overhaul, I want a WS Fiesta style interior, modern guages, soft touch plastics/vynils and trims which won't fall off or rattle like anything in 20,000km time.

- This is Australia, theres people who live outside of metro areas, I want a "regional" package as an option, which optional inside that is a PSA diesel 4 (or 6) cylinder engine, Bi-Xenons and factory driving lamps or mounting locations, slightly lifted, softer shocks, higher profile tyres and a full sized spare.

- Ecoboost 4 cylinder is the standard engine across the range, ecoboost V6 is will be on the sports/luxury models, optional are PSA 4 or 6 cylinder diesel engines.

- Front/Rear LSDs standard on AWD sports models and optional 6sp manual transmission.

- On luxury models, I want a 10" touch screen with GPS for the in car entertainment system.

[jpd80]

One Ford is meant to help FoA remain viable and profitable, not shut down what is established or what works.
What's the point of changing to a global platform that doesn't work for Australia?
Absolutely nothinmg.

Alan Mulally said to Marin Burela, "If One Ford global platforms don work for you, then don't use them.."

[THE SLUG]

Re-do the interior, make it larger and move the steering wheel higher up. The main reason we got a VE was that you could actually fit your legs underneath the steering wheels comfortably, and that there was much more room overall. Make more fuel-efficient engines, perhaps a diesel option or something similar to SIDI. But overall I think the exterior looks fine.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

One Ford is meant to help FoA remain viable and profitable, not shut down what is established or what works.
What's the point of changing to a global platform that doesn't work for Australia?
Absolutely nothinmg.

Alan Mulally said to Marin Burela, "If One Ford global platforms don work for you, then don't use them.."

There still has to be a business case to support the development of a next generation Falcon though.

And that still goes whether it has its own individual platform or if its a tophat on a global platform.

Do you believe that business case exists?

On that note, do you have up to date figures on the total development spend on FG? And would those figures include FH development costs since you've saids its complete?

[Eaturbo]

With the ecoboost 4 and if they put the 2.7turbo diesel in nxt Falcon than they have plenty of quality engines. The 6 speed auto is plenty, hell we had 3and 4 speed auto's not that long ago and for a cheap car 6 gears is heaps. Fix the god dam cheap $hitt interior components like faulty A/C vent controls (HEM modules) and electric window and door locks failures. Use decent leather and adjustable rear headrests. Build a LTD/Caprice car above G6E out of a falcon shell with just new bumpers guard/bonnet/lights. A Calais V redline has much more equipment that a G6E turbo.

[jpd80]

You can tell that Jay Mays is dying to tell the world but he can't until certain internal processes happen.....

[Franco Cozzo]

Oh yeah, I forgot:


- Heated mirrors
- Auto up down on ALL windows, (Our new SV6 VE at work only has auto down on drivers.....)

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You can tell that Jay Mays is dying to tell the world but he can't until certain internal processes happen.....

You mean that you can tell he wants to shut up all those annoying Australian Magazine Journalists who keep asking him questions about an annoying car from the other side of the world?

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Feedback is completely pointless unless you can acurately verify and qualify exactly who is providing it.. and what their future buying potential is...

Do you even own an FG or any late-model Falcon?

These "Internet" experts are also people and these people buy new Falcons. Their input is definitely important.

Not everyone wants over-size chrome grilles or cheap plastic trim. The issues raised by people on forums or other car websites should be noted by Ford, because these are reasons why they aren't selling as much as they should be.

[MethodX]

How about a 4 door version of the mustang?
I know its been said before.

[Joe5619]

For the love of god, keep a manual & RWD!!!

[Bossxr8]

Higher quality soft touch materials are already being looked at.

Fuel economy will be probably even more important over time. A ZF 8 speed and anything they can do to trim weight is a must. Shave a few cms from here and there if need be.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by Bobman

Do you even own an FG or any late-model Falcon?

These "Internet" experts are also people and these people buy new Falcons. Their input is definitely important.

Not everyone wants over-size chrome grilles or cheap plastic trim. The issues raised by people on forums or other car websites should be noted by Ford, because these are reasons why they aren't selling as much as they should be.

Yep, being buying new Ford products (and Mercedes, Holden and Mazda) for nearly 20 years.
If you have bought a new Falcon recently you'll also know Ford survey you after the sale, after you service the car and periodically.

Anyone who has had an issue with their new Falcon would have had it addressed under warranty by Ford, this then is reported via their internal systems back to H/O. Reading rants here about new car issues is "double dipping" because chances are Ford are already fully aware of the exact case via their internal reporting.

As far as new model or model ideas go they do market research to various qualified demographic groups... These people are pre screened to ensure their feedback is worth while and relevant... Not misplaced, ill conceived, made up or plain mischievous..

Im sure Ford employees read these pages from time to time for some light entertainment..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

You mean that you can tell he wants to shut up all those annoying Australian Magazine Journalists who keep asking him questions about an annoying car from the other side of the world?

Mays is director of Styling so he gets to see a lot of projects develop up to and after approval,
whatever FoA is working on must be pretty awesome for him to be nearly bursting at the seams...

Or is it a ploy to keep the very predictable anti-Ford Aus media off balance and guessing?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Mays is director of Styling so he gets to see a lot of projects develop up to and after approval,
whatever FoA is working on must be pretty awesome for him to be nearly bursting at the seams...

For all we know FoA could have scored the engineering role for Ford's Ford GT replacement that they've been talking about for a while.

@ Point Two: I swear every second Journalist who speaks to him must be from Motor or Wheels or whatever quizing him about the Falcon, lol.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Yep, being buying new Ford products (and Mercedes, Holden and Mazda) for nearly 20 years.
If you have bought a new Falcon recently you'll also know Ford survey you after the sale, after you service the car and periodically.

Anyone who has had an issue with their new Falcon would have had it addressed under warranty by Ford, this then is reported via their internal systems back to H/O. Reading rants here about new car issues is "double dipping" because chances are Ford are already fully aware of the exact case via their internal reporting.

As far as new model or model ideas go they do market research to various qualified demographic groups... These people are pre screened to ensure their feedback is worth while and relevant... Not misplaced, ill conceived, made up or plain mischievous..

Im sure Ford employees read these pages from time to time for some light entertainment..

They wouldn't stop pestering me with ringing me up and sending me these surveys in the mail.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I think the fact a new Focus has "active park assist" highlights the issues between a Falcon and it's globally sold siblings. A $50K+ Falcon should not be out featured by a cheaper model in its own stable. Ford Oz needs to leverage these features into Falcon and sadly a local-only model won't have the budget to get these features or will require a big jump in sales price to cover their cost. I'm realistic to understand why my next new locally built Ford doesn't have the tech features of a Mondeo or Focus however superior road performance and 5 seater capacity eventually won't be enough to sell more down the track.

Good post Doc.

"Should not" is true; on one hand we have what Alan Mulally said to Marin Burela, "If One Ford global platforms don work for you, then don't use them..". If this implies that if the next Falcon isn't part of a global design then we can kiss the chances of it being on par with it's cheaper stable mates.

I see the most pivotal aspect to Falcon's future is what Ford plans to do with Lincoln. Ford recently announced how they will properly focus on the Lincoln brand to be world-competitive (they also said that everything they've done for Lincoln up to this point has been just "patchwork" more than anything so this demonstrates how serious they will be getting).

The big question out of all this is; will Ford deem it necessary that Lincoln has a rwd flagship model? If it's a "yes" then Falcon may well have all (or most of) the tech of this Lincoln's flagship. In other words, it can be a world beater.


Going back to John's question. "What does Ford Australia need to do with the current design to evolve to the next generation suitable for post 2015?

Let's have at it and don't hold back........engines, transmissions, fuel economy, body styles, equipment features....."

So I take this as meaning it's not part of a global platform? If so...

First and foremost: Must be LHD proof.


Chassis: They need to fix Control Blade to take more power.
The reason I say this is because once upon a time Lincoln had a couple of FG Falcons. One had the Miami, the other had their own blown 450+kW Coyote. There was a strong argument to use this to rip the Cadillac CTS-V a new one. The rear needed a lot more attention than they could afford to give it at the time... so yeah, just make the rear bullet-proof.

They should focus on aluminium in the moving components before they employ it in the body.

Obviously, epas would be standardised by then. You would think.



Engines: If they were to use the diesel they should ditch that ancient 2.7 litre and use the diesels from the new Ranger.

But I'd rather the following...
Standard...
3.7 n.a. V6.

Optional...
Ecoboost 2.0.
EcoLPi Ecoboost 2.0.
EcoLPi 3.7 n.a. V6.

Higher (performance) models have standard EB3.5 but LPi also an option.
V8? D.I. 5.0.
EcoLPi, optional.

FPV Models: If they beef CB up they can add fat tyres and therefore unleash Miami.



Gearing:Seven speed DCT as standard across the range. Without GRWD budget, I'm dreaming.

Design language: Whatever Ford's corporate styling is in the future will be I hope Falcon's designers won't forget that it must still symbolise a Falcon. The design language I'm seeing from the Euro Fords is promising but, for heaven's sake, please, don't let that Tasmanian - who did the Focus rear - anywhere near the Falcon's. Please!

Interior: Foot rest.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

They wouldn't stop pestering me with ringing me up and sending me these surveys in the mail.

Hey, atleast they're asking!!!
The people claiming Ford dont care, dont listen or dont follow up clearly have never bought a new one because they hound you for feedback.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

On that note, do you have up to date figures on the total development spend on FG? And would those figures include FH development costs since you've saids its complete?

We know that SZ Territory and FG II cost $240 million but $40 million of that was paid by the government
for V6 diesel, EcoLPI and Ecoboost I-4 so both updates actually cost Ford $100 million a piece, not bad hey...

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by flappist

The one thing that is plaguing Falcons from BA onward is cheap nasty interior components.

One thing that really disappointed me about the new Terri at the Melbourne Motor Show a couple of months back was the crappy interior plastic. The fit in the Terri interior was really tight and good, but the beige plastic looked like soap, it was terrible. Hard, grainy, scratches easily, they need to find someone else to do their plastics. The door was also really tinny as well, not solid like on older Falcons and other Jap cars.

[jpd80]

Now, I didn't set out to imply that I know more than I do, it's just that
there's a lot of clues in published articles that can be taken either way but
the Aussie press chooses to be negative and dismissive.

- One Ford is meant to help regional areas with vehicles either on global platforms
or through being plugged into regional parts supply contracts. The biggest gains
in profitability happen at the supplier level, get costs right here and the
assembly line is of much less significance...

- This does not mean that Dearborn is ready to ram an oversized Mondeo
down our throats as a post 2015 Falcon replacement. Nor do they intend
denying FoA the right to do market research and pick the right product.

- If Dearborn really wanted to kill the Falcon they would treat it like the Crown Victoria,
visually unchanged for years and years with no technical updates and no funding.
The complete opposite of that is happening with the Falcon.

All I ask is that everyone please keep an open mind and not to accept everything that's typed as gospel,
the last few years have been perfect examples of how decisions can be made then either undone or changed.

The press love a scandal and it's obvious they have tried to draw out Ford's plans ahead if time without success
by continuing to paint a picture of negativity but nary a bad word for Commodore exports or 260/mth PPV sales....

[Wretched]

- Better quality control at build time.

- Better quality materials within the interior. The FG and BA/BF console is very cheap to look at and feels that way too. Too many gaps and sharp edges exposed. Not asking for exotic materials just better quality. The Euro Fords can do it and even VW on their base models feel much better. While we're at it, if Ford are going to advertise leather as the seat make sure the whole thing is leather.

- Better quality materials for brakes, the shuddering issue just won't go away.

- Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Use Ford global for technology updates. Prime example is the touch screen in the Territory, a second rate attempt at something Ford already have in the US/Europe. While we're discussing technology, how about getting some LED rear tail lights, use some of the safety features already used by Ford US and Europe?

- FPV should try and differentiate their cars better from the Ford product. The current GT/P/E are not worth the 70k. Need a better interior/seats. Again if need be steal from Ford US/Europe. While I am at it, FPV need to understand chassis development too, their cars are far too powerful for the chassis.

- I'd like Ford to begin looking at using lighter weight materials to try and cut down the weight of the cars. Obviously cost is an issue but saving weight will greatly assist with reductions in fuel usage.

[aussie muscle]

FPV need to start building cars other than Falcon.

Originally Posted by prydey

i guess it all comes back to the fact that building cars in australia is not cheap.

i guess building cars in Germany is not cheap either

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

FPV need to start building cars other than Falcon.

Well there is no point building a Focus or Fiesta when Team RS have already done the work and have done a fantastic job. I'd rather FPV just import the Fiesta and Focus ST and the Focus RS.

FPV could include the Mondeo into their catalog.