QPS's latest toy...

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell this is going to be used for in Queensland...!

In case Pauline tries to get back over the border ?.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by csv8

When did Brizzy become Belfast??????????

If only you knew, less than 1% of the acts of violence I attend end up with even a small mention on the news. Our happy little city is not so happy, under the surface it has a dark side.

We live in a world where even everyday run of the mill paramedics are trained in the management of widespread chemical weapon attack and carry chemical, biological and radiological capable masks in their everyday safety equipment (there is one in my work bag).

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

This team works very closely with SERT and I am sure that if they had to get a wounded cop out of a very bad situation, this vehicle would be a great asset and more use than 8 more GD coppers.

but only useful if its stationed near where an incident occurs... if its down the gold coast and some nutter with a assault rifle shoots a copper and holes up in kingaroy what are they gonna do?
" excuse me mr crim, please dont slit the throats of those hostages until we can get our armoured vehicle up there, we should be good to go in about 6-7 hours...thanks good buddy"
'oh, and please make sure your building has its windows at the right height so we can try out our new fangled window breaker...'

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

but only useful if its stationed near where an incident occurs... if its down the gold coast and some nutter with a assault rifle shoots a copper and holes up in kingaroy what are they gonna do?
" excuse me mr crim, please dont slit the throats of those hostages until we can get our armoured vehicle up there, we should be good to go in about 6-7 hours...thanks good buddy"
'oh, and please make sure your building has its windows at the right height so we can try out our new fangled window breaker...'

So now you are suggesting they need about 1000 more to have good response times for anywhere in the state?

And why is it going to take 6-7 hrs to get from GC to Kingaroy, are they going to push it there?

[nstg8a]

rediculous isnt it...

if your not gonna do it properly why do it half assed?

in all honesty do you really think one armoured vehicle is going to cover queensland sufficiently?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

rediculous isnt it...

if your not gonna do it properly why do it half assed?

in all honesty do you really think one armoured vehicle is going to cover queensland sufficiently?

Are you serious, so lets not have any coverage because we can not cover the whole population. We could have a vehicle in the area with the highest threat of siege or terrorist attack by basing it in Brisbane, but lets not bother because it will not be any good to Agnes Waters.

We don't have a SORT team up there either, better disband SORT as well.

Expensive equipment has to be deployed based on a risk assessment. Look at the responses here, they get one and 20 people claim it is a waste of money, imagine if they had bought 100 of them.

Response times are great in emergency services but you have to be realistic on the cost, the funding has to come from somewhere. One thing will never change, the public want the ultimate service but they don't want to pay for it.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Are you serious, so lets not have any coverage because we can not cover the whole population. We could have a vehicle in the area with the highest threat of siege or terrorist attack by basing it in Brisbane, but lets not bother because it will not be any good to Agnes Waters.

We don't have a SORT team up there either, better disband SORT as well.

Expensive equipment has to be deployed based on a risk assessment. Look at the responses here, they get one and 20 people claim it is a waste of money, imagine if they had bought 100 of them.

Response times are great in emergency services but you have to be realistic on the cost, the funding has to come from somewhere. One thing will never change, the public want the ultimate service but they don't want to pay for it.

Whilst I can understand where you're coming from, I believe that 400k could be put to better use - for example, more police, ambulance staff, etc.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Whilst I can understand where you're coming from, I believe that 400k could be put to better use - for example, more police, ambulance staff, etc.

What, 1 extra ambulance staffed for 6 months, that is all 400k will get you.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

What, 1 extra ambulance staffed for 6 months, that is all 400k will get you.

At the moment, 400k has gotten one vehicle, unstaffed...

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Are you serious, so lets not have any coverage because we can not cover the whole population. We could have a vehicle in the area with the highest threat of siege or terrorist attack by basing it in Brisbane, but lets not bother because it will not be any good to Agnes Waters.

We don't have a SORT team up there either, better disband SORT as well.

Expensive equipment has to be deployed based on a risk assessment. Look at the responses here, they get one and 20 people claim it is a waste of money, imagine if they had bought 100 of them.

Response times are great in emergency services but you have to be realistic on the cost, the funding has to come from somewhere. One thing will never change, the public want the ultimate service but they don't want to pay for it.

You talk much sense, but some people can not be helped, I think people just whine for the sake of it, if the Government gets pro active and starts doing something about anything like terrorism, unregistered vehicles, crime etc etc the same people seem to complain, yet they also complain if nothing gets done.

If we had bought 20 more ambo vehicles they would whine as why we have no anti terrorism vehicles, I think people here just like to whine for the sake of it. They seem to whine when police do their job and they also whine if they do not, depending on which end of the law they stand at the time.

I love the people who claim they hate police yet they call police as soon as they are unable to sort their own lifes out.

I think this is a great idea, and we need more of them if you ask me. I like to know that these guys are out there for us if they are needed, they are obviously out there training to do a job where most key board warriors here would run and hide under mummies skirt till these guys sort it out, then they would whine again that it was too violent or not violent enough or there should have been more armored vehicles etc etc.

[MO]

Well I for one think its a good start. Hopefully they will roll out some more over time.
As ppl have said intially its placed for best response for given trouble potential.
Everyting takes time eventually Qpol will get their helo's as will any other emergency response agency that needs whatever equipment.

[nstg8a]

and when was the last terrorist attack on australian soil?

and isnt that what the adf is there for?

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

You talk much sense, but some people can not be helped, I think people just whine for the sake of it, if the Government gets pro active and starts doing something about anything like terrorism, unregistered vehicles, crime etc etc the same people seem to complain, yet they also complain if nothing gets done.

If we had bought 20 more ambo vehicles they would whine as why we have no anti terrorism vehicles, I think people here just like to whine for the sake of it. They seem to whine when police do their job and they also whine if they do not, depending on which end of the law they stand at the time.

I love the people who claim they hate police yet they call police as soon as they are unable to sort their own lifes out.

I think this is a great idea, and we need more of them if you ask me. I like to know that these guys are out there for us if they are needed, they are obviously out there training to do a job where most key board warriors here would run and hide under mummies skirt till these guys sort it out, then they would whine again that it was too violent or not violent enough or there should have been more armored vehicles etc etc.

who in this thread said anything about hating police? most seem to be saying the money would be better spent on more police... yep, thats hating.

[geckoGT]

What many here do not seem to understand is how emergency services operate. Yes another staffed cop car (that is what 400k will buy) may seem like more use on a day to day basis, it will be used more often. But really how much effect will that one extra asset have?

What everyone needs to understand is that such services are not all about daily usage, it is about maintaining a capability, to be bought into use when it is needed. I carry a $30k monitor defibrillator on my vehicle yet I have defibrillated (shocked) a patient twice in going on 8 years, based on daily usage, this equipment is a waste of money, I could live with a simple cardiac monitor for $10k for 99.999999999% of the time. Times that $20k saving by the 2000 ambulance vehicles and you have a real saving, we could fund more ambulances to cover the majority of work that does not require a defibrillator.

Think of the Counter Terrorist (CT) Team provided by the Army through the SAS, this team costs 100's of times what that new vehicle costs, but has not been used in a domestic terrorist incident yet. It would seem that is a waste of money too, best we get rid of it. Germany raised their version of our SAS CT team (GSG9) and improved Counter terrorism capability as a result of the failed hostage rescue during the 1972 Munich Olympics, yet they have barely used them since. So why do we maintain this capability despite the massive cost involved? The simple answer is holding the capacity is a deterrent to those that have desire to commit terrorist attacks. It is all about making soft targets into hard targets without disadvantaging the public to unreasonable levels. Leave them as soft targets and you leave them vulnerable, terrorists and criminals etc, don't like to hit hard targets for the sake of a challenge. They prefer soft targets that provide maximum effect/gain for minimum effort.

The presence of this sort of asset makes the largest area of the highest density of population a harder target in the future, goal achieved.

I could go further into it but that would require going deeper into counter terrorism tactics and methods, which I am not about to do. Lets just say, I do see the reason behind it.

By the way, if you think this sort of asset will never have a use, I have 2 names for you, Martin Bryant and Port Arthur.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

and when was the last terrorist attack on australian soil?

and isnt that what the adf is there for?

First response in any emergency is the Police, they are the first ones on the scene dealing with it.

The question is not when was the last but when is the next....and no one knows the answer to that one.....

Its not only terrorism its any siege/emergence/critical incident/hi jacking/abduction/bomb threat/explosion/.......etc etc

Originally Posted by geckoGT

By the way, if you think this sort of asset will never have a use, I have 2 names for you, Martin Bryant and Port Arthur.

Wade Frankum Strathfield Plaza could also ring a bell.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

At the moment, 400k has gotten one vehicle, unstaffed...

It will not have a dedicated crew assigned only to that unit, other officers of SERT will be trained in its use.

Just like we have $250k of specialist response unit sitting at an ambulance station in the south of brisbane that is equipped to supply multiple of response teams at a mass casualty incident such as road side bomb, train derailment, building collapse etc. It has never been used and hopefully it never will. It is not manned everyday, but every qualified officer is able to drive it in any conditions to an incident and we are all familiar in its layout.

This new police vehicle will be the same sort of situation, not staffed everyday but those that may need to use it will know how to.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

and when was the last terrorist attack on australian soil?

and isnt that what the adf is there for?



who in this thread said anything about hating police? most seem to be saying the money would be better spent on more police... yep, thats hating.

The last terrorism attack on Australian soil? Let me ask you this, when was the last previous terrorist attack in Bali prior to 2002? We are not immune here.

This thought of "we don't need it, it is a waste of money" is like saying you don't need vehicle insurance because you have not crashed your car.

Without going too deep into and openly discussing stuff I am not allowed to, Counter Terrorism (CT) is a specialist field that requires unbelievably difficult training and is horribly expensive to equip. The general army grunt can not provide this sort of service, only specialist units can. Australia is a big place and for logistical and cost reasons this specialist unit can not be everywhere in Australia at once, they can however respond but this takes time.

Also, don't just focus on full scale terrorist attack, this vehicle will have other critical incident applications for law enforcement.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

First response in any emergency is the Police, they are the first ones on the scene dealing with it.

The question is not when was the last but when is the next....and no one knows the answer to that one.....

Its not only terrorism its any siege/emergence/critical incident/hi jacking/abduction/bomb threat/explosion/.......etc etc



Wade Frankum Strathfield Plaza could also ring a bell.

Very true, how about Julian Knight, Hoddle St or the Fathers Day Massacre, Milperra?

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

It will not have a dedicated crew assigned only to that unit, other officers of SERT will be trained in its use.

Just like we have $250k of specialist response unit sitting at an ambulance station in the south of brisbane that is equipped to supply multiple of response teams at a mass casualty incident such as road side bomb, train derailment, building collapse etc. It has never been used and hopefully it never will. It is not manned everyday, but every qualified officer is able to drive it in any conditions to an incident and we are all familiar in its layout.

This new police vehicle will be the same sort of situation, not staffed everyday but those that may need to use it will know how to.

Point taken, I guess I'm still a little bamboozled as to how they have assessed the requirement for one. Yes, if an incident such as Hoddle Street happened again, there is a high likelihood of loss of life, but surely these such events would be low on the scale of actually occurring?

A little like the gas tanks at Pinkenba exploding and killing all the staff at Bayer, Shell, etc. The devestation is massive, but the likelihood is almost zero on the scale.

I can understand the 'what if's?', and understand that some federal funding has gone into this - I can, unfortunately, see the general population asking why they haven't got decent roads to drive on, reliable transit services, hospital services, etc. It may be a fantastic device, but I honestly can't see the general populace seeing it in the same fashion as you do.

And no, I'm not whinging or whining about it, as someone has previously said, I'm just trying to understand the logic, to which you have helped massively gecko. Now I just need to get my head around the why...and how this was ranked more important than other investments...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Very true, how about Julian Knight, Hoddle St or the Fathers Day Massacre, Milperra?

All just a guy with a rifle.

But it will look good on TV......

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Point taken, I guess I'm still a little bamboozled as to how they have assessed the requirement for one. Yes, if an incident such as Hoddle Street happened again, there is a high likelihood of loss of life, but surely these such events would be low on the scale of actually occurring?

A little like the gas tanks at Pinkenba exploding and killing all the staff at Bayer, Shell, etc. The devestation is massive, but the likelihood is almost zero on the scale.

I can understand the 'what if's?', and understand that some federal funding has gone into this - I can, unfortunately, see the general population asking why they haven't got decent roads to drive on, reliable transit services, hospital services, etc. It may be a fantastic device, but I honestly can't see the general populace seeing it in the same fashion as you do.

And no, I'm not whinging or whining about it, as someone has previously said, I'm just trying to understand the logic, to which you have helped massively gecko. Now I just need to get my head around the why...and how this was ranked more important than other investments...

Trust me, I see your point and I have been dealing with this issue for over 20 years after service in both the Army and now an ambulance service.

Often the public look at expenditure on specialist equipment and question its value, stating the money would have been better spent elsewhere. This is quite reasonable, all departments of government should be open to question by the public. Lets look at the specialist ambulance vehicle I mentioned, cost to the QLD taxpayer is over $250k each and it can not carry a single patient. Instead it is equipped with bulk oxygen, extrication equipment, generators, lighting and medical supplies to supply ambulance crews in a mass casualty response, a situation that can take hours or even days to clear. The simple fact is we could not adequately manage that scale of incident out of the equipment contained in responding ambulances. Added to the cost is the fact that it is not the only unit in existence there are more dispersed throughout the state.

Now lets say there are 4 of these vehicles throughout the state (I believe there are actually more than that), over $1m spent on assets that sit there, plugged into battery chargers up the back of an ambulance station and often only move once a month for the vehicle servicing (every ambulance vehicle gets serviced monthly). To the public this seems a waste of money, surely the money would have been better spent on other daily use vehicles.

The thing is most of the time the public have a very valid point, on the surface it seems that way. That is until a tilt train derails, a earthquake hits, half the state floods or a bus crash in Kempsie occurs. The catch 22 is that if we have this sort of asset we continually cop heat over wasting money, if we don't have those assets and such an incident occurs, that same public question why we did not have the assets and we were not prepared.

Imagine this, I have a CBR mask in my kit which is worth a great deal of money, we all have one at great expense to the public. My mask has not come out in anger in over 5 years and many would question why we have it. These same people would question why we did not have such equipment if ambo's ever found themselves caught in an incident like the Tokyo Subway and ended up being a victim themselves, why weren't they protected?

This situation stems for a basic difference in how emergency services operate in comparison to more mainstream categories of employment. Most people are used to working in productivity based jobs. The goal is to have sufficient staff and equipment to get the job done but not pay for stuff you don't need. The emergency services in many ways operates differently, we have to staff and equip for the worst case scenario, beyond the realms of the everyday but we have to do so with the greatest amount of economy. This is a difficult thing for many to understand but to put it in a nutshell, I am not solely employed and equipped for what I actually do, I am employed and equipped for what I could potentially do.

This new vehicle is in the same situation and trust me, QPS is not the only police service in the world to have such vehicles.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Yes another staffed cop car (that is what 400k will buy) may seem like more use on a day to day basis, it will be used more often.

That is a VERY expensive HP car with a VERY well paid Mr Plod in it!

Originally Posted by geckoGT

By the way, if you think this sort of asset will never have a use, I have 2 names for you, Martin Bryant and Port Arthur.

Very true, how about Julian Knight, Hoddle St or the Fathers Day Massacre, Milperra?

Perhaps we need to ge a little perspective here.
You just pointed out incidents in three different states.
How is a Belfast taxi going to get there in time, from Bris, to do any good

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Without going too deep into and openly discussing stuff I am not allowed to, Counter Terrorism (CT) is a specialist field that requires unbelievably difficult training and is horribly expensive to equip.

You may not be allowed to, but it did'nt stop the Police from sticking up the vid on you tube to tell the world...Look what we've got!

Originally Posted by geckoGT

The general army grunt can not provide this sort of service, only specialist units can.

Like the SAS, and no, they're not just in WA.

[Streets]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

That is a VERY expensive HP car with a VERY well paid Mr Plod in it!

Actually a fully-equipped highway patrol car and the training (as in, full police career training) and salaries of two police officers to use it would probably come out at around a similar price so gecko wouldn't be far off in his estimates I reckon.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Streets

Actually a fully-equipped highway patrol car and the training (as in, full police career training) and salaries of two police officers to use it would probably come out at around a similar price so gecko wouldn't be far off in his estimates I reckon.

Forget the training as they don't train new members for every car they buy, and even if the car cost 100k by this reckoning the two operators would be getting 150k a year? Yeah right.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

That is a VERY expensive HP car with a VERY well paid Mr Plod in it!Perhaps we need to ge a little perspective here.
You just pointed out incidents in three different states.
How is a Belfast taxi going to get there in time, from Bris, to do any goodYou may not be allowed to, but it did'nt stop the Police from sticking up the vid on you tube to tell the world...Look what we've got!
Like the SAS, and no, they're not just in WA.

A couple of things.

It is not an expensive cop car once you have bought it, fitted it out and then manned it 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year and taken into account annual leave of staff on that vehicle. Each vehicle takes about 6 people to man it through 24 hrs for the whole year, make it a 2 person car and that doubles. Now your $400k does not even cover salaries for the year.

Yes I pointed out 3 incidents across three states, 2 of which happened in a capital city. Now of course this vehicle can not respond to Melbourne or Sydney but considering it is a state asset and not a federal one, it does not have to. It can however respond to a Brisbane incident.

Making the asset known achieves one of its primary objectives, deterrence.

Please tell me about SASR I would love to hear more.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Forget the training as they don't train new members for every car they buy, and even if the car cost 100k by this reckoning the two operators would be getting 150k a year? Yeah right.

So would you work 24 hrs each day, 7 days a week with no holidays for $150k? If so QPS would love to have you.

[trippytaka]

What i sthe point of this thing, seriously?

[SEZ213]

Milperra, 1984
Hoddle Street, 1987
Strathfield Plaza, 1991
Port Arther, 1996 (gun laws became more stringent after this point, much to the farmers' chagrin).

So the last one of this level was 15 years ago...I'm still failing to get my head around it. Why now?

[MO]

Well perhaps in the greater scheme of things those in comtrol know something we don't.
If there was one of these in Sydney yesterday I reckon it would have been at the Villawood detention center riots.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by MO

Well perhaps in the greater scheme of things those in comtrol know something we don't.

Very good point, what you don't know would scare the pants off you.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Milperra, 1984
Hoddle Street, 1987
Strathfield Plaza, 1991
Port Arther, 1996 (gun laws became more stringent after this point, much to the farmers' chagrin).

So the last one of this level was 15 years ago...I'm still failing to get my head around it. Why now?

And they were spread over 12 years, do you know when the next will be?