Future of Ford and Holden Could be Revealed in Detroit this week

[Falcon_Crazy]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I wonder if the Falcon ute plays on the decision at all, surely they dont want to throw that market away.

My feeling is the T6 will take lead here. But as said before, T6 is a GREAT reason to involve FoA in any large car programme.

[JG34JA]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I also dont see them going global for a long long time, thank Cadillac's abysmal failure in Europe for that.

Hi Brazen, always good to read your posts.

However, you surely must remember Taurus' abysmal failure in Australia last time around as well?

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

Ssshhh...you're making too much sense!

Sounds more like wishful thinking

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Ford Australia needs to come out swinging against all this crap - Drive pulled the same stunt last year based on a throw away comment from a Detroit exec, yet they let the speculation fester and snowball. This has damaged the Falcon I believe.

I'm not sure how Ford Australia can come out swinging when the chief guy is saying & I quote "I wouldn’t be holding my breath for a rear-wheel drive Falcon,” This one quote alone has changed my mind about what we'll get here in Aust past 2015.. Get use to FWD & AWD I think. This is not journalist making things up, J Mays (Chief designer) said it, what can Ford Aust do now??? Nothing really

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I'm not sure how Ford Australia can come out swinging when the chief guy is saying & I quote "I wouldn’t be holding my breath for a rear-wheel drive Falcon,” This one quote alone has changed my mind about what we'll get here in Aust past 2015.. Get use to FWD & AWD I think. This is not journalist making things up, J Mays (Chief designer) said it, what can Ford Aust do now??? Nothing really

It's not up to J Mays whether the Falcon is FWD, RWD or AWD, he is the design director - design is all about the physical shape, size and look of the car. Powertrain and systems are an engineering issue - which would have already been decided if they (Ford Australia, Ford of Europe and Ford NA) are engaged in a design comp for the new global large car.

My point was that the same hysteria was promulgated by the same media outlet at the same time last year from a comment that was later demonstrated to be taken way out of context - for all we know, a journo may have asked Mays of what the chances are of Ford US getting the RWD Falcon (because don't forget there have been US auto media outlets reporting a link between the S/C Coyote cars and the Falcon being sent to the US) but because it is the same media outlet as last time, they jumped at the chance to reignite the issue and shore up support for their opinion by manipulating comments to suit their argument.

Think about it - first Autoblog and Motortrend start making noises about S/C Falcons going to the US, then you have a flurry of enthusiast activity in the US, then the Detroit show, and of course the question will be asked by journos at that show - I'm not surprised Mays said "don't hold your breath".

What I'm saying aint the gospel, but I think its important to have a look at these things from another angle.

[Joe5619]

F.. me Ford are crap at this.. Why do some of these poeple even open there months

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2578150001C58C

Now I read this one from Ford communications executive Mark Schirmer

“While I know J was talking about possible directions for the Falcon platform, I confirmed with (Ford global product boss Derrick) Kuzak that the decision is still open, and that we have NOT turned down a specific path,” said Mr Schirmer.

“We are considering the alternatives (AWD, FWD, RWD), but nothing has been finalised. Our decision on Falcon has not been made at this point.”

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

It's not up to J Mays whether the Falcon is FWD, RWD or AWD, he is the design director - design is all about the physical shape, size and look of the car. Powertrain and systems are an engineering issue - which would have already been decided if they (Ford Australia, Ford of Europe and Ford NA) are engaged in a design comp for the new global large car.

My point was that the same hysteria was promulgated by the same media outlet at the same time last year from a comment that was later demonstrated to be taken way out of context - for all we know, a journo may have asked Mays of what the chances are of Ford US getting the RWD Falcon (because don't forget there have been US auto media outlets reporting a link between the S/C Coyote cars and the Falcon being sent to the US) but because it is the same media outlet as last time, they jumped at the chance to reignite the issue and shore up support for their opinion by manipulating comments to suit their argument.

Think about it - first Autoblog and Motortrend start making noises about S/C Falcons going to the US, then you have a flurry of enthusiast activity in the US, then the Detroit show, and of course the question will be asked by journos at that show - I'm not surprised Mays said "don't hold your breath".

What I'm saying aint the gospel, but I think its important to have a look at these things from another angle.

I also got an odd out-of-context vibe from J Mays comments in that article as well, so who knows what is going on.

[XR4568]

If.....If Falcon went AWD, surely whatever system is used could be configured to direct more drive went to the rear. Say a 70%/30% split. Maybe for the XR/FPV series?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I also got an odd out-of-context vibe from J Mays comments in that article as well, so who knows what is going on.

Yep. And that GoAuto article quoted above adds more mystery to it. I smell a rat.

Originally Posted by XR4568

If.....If Falcon went AWD, surely whatever system is used could be configured to direct more drive went to the rear. Say a 70%/30% split. Maybe for the XR/FPV series?

Fat chance, we will get whatever the Toreass gets, an east-west engine with a FWD bias.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

F.. me Ford are crap at this.. Why do some of these poeple even open there months

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2578150001C58C

Now I read this one from Ford communications executive Mark Schirmer

“While I know J was talking about possible directions for the Falcon platform, I confirmed with (Ford global product boss Derrick) Kuzak that the decision is still open, and that we have NOT turned down a specific path,” said Mr Schirmer.

“We are considering the alternatives (AWD, FWD, RWD), but nothing has been finalised. Our decision on Falcon has not been made at this point.”

Whilst what they are doing is quite damaging, this is EXACTLY what I would be doing if I had bad or suprising news to announce.

Do you really think blokes as bright as Mays, Mually and Kuzcak would publicly cause so much damage unless they were doing it to mitigate much larger damage down the track.

I would over a period of 18 months to two years, have execs publicly question the viablity of RWD, I would talk about the benefits of FWD, talk about the benefits of platform sharing whilst all the time never confirming one way or the other and always stating the option remains open.

Over time, every time there is an article the anger or outrage gets smaller and smaller until people are ready to accept the inevitiable. Then when the timing is right announce the AWD/FWD Falcon.

People have to get used to the idea before the car is released, and it has to be done gradually otherwise the 2015 Falcon will be one of the biggest failed launches in Ford Australia's history.

If it does go FWD/AWD, Im betting the offical announcement will be made on the launch of some really good news like at the release of the Ecoboost Falcon at the end of the year, or a new export contract, or a new technology. Giving Ford buyers enough time to get over it by 2015.

[bigsta]

Originally Posted by XR4568

If.....If Falcon went AWD, surely whatever system is used could be configured to direct more drive went to the rear. Say a 70%/30% split. Maybe for the XR/FPV series?

Depends how they built it to start with, most of these crap "AWD's have pathetic cheap rear ends that could not handle more than 5-10% and the AWD add on is just a gimmick really.

But thats not to say it wont be a decent set up look at the Imprezza, Audi's etc end of the day it depends on the bean counters and in all likely hood i think the falcon will stay RWD and hopefully be engineered for LHD export and global platform duties.

No matter what i do not think that there will be many 1 market platforms built any more from Ford global in the near future.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by GK

These "journalists" won't rest until they see Ford shut production down in Aus.

GK

Worked for MMAL.

Falcon is not going FWD/AWD. It will be sharing a basic platform with Mustang. The I6 is dead, but we get to keep our RWD, Australian made Falcon.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I also got an odd out-of-context vibe from J Mays comments in that article as well, so who knows what is going on.

RWD makes some design headaches, so maybe he is in the internal camp pushing for Falcon to die and be replaced with a predominately (as in sales) FWD package that they are more familiar with.

If the AWD is compromised in packaging, this isn't such a big deal as they are the performance models and the owners will overlook these things. I do in my Mazda 6 MPS.

Sounds like a power play is on in Ford management over Falcon. Thats my take.

Dan

[JutroXR8]

who cares. As long as there is Falcon with a v8 in either RWD or AWD.

[nstg8a]

an awd gtp would certainly stop the journos whinging about a lack of traction.



they they will whinge about it bogging down when launched...

[XRFutura]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

an awd gtp would certainly stop the journos whinging about a lack of traction.



they they will whinge about it bogging down when launched...

nah they'll just whinge about it being faster than a holden/hsv lol!

[cardinalred]

If Australia gets Taurus, I think it is safe to assume there will be no V8. The twin-turbo V6 and probably an equivalent diesel will be as good as it gets.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Sta Arhidia Mou

But isn't the Taurus FWD based so even in AWD layout the engine is going to be mounted transversely?

^^^Spot on.

It will be a FWD based AWD system which will have all the handling characteristics at the limit more or less the same to a FWD car.

AWD based on FWD is not a RWD alternative.

No more V8's
No more utes
No more FPV

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

It's not up to J Mays whether the Falcon is FWD, RWD or AWD, he is the design director - design is all about the physical shape, size and look of the car. Powertrain and systems are an engineering issue - which would have already been decided if they (Ford Australia, Ford of Europe and Ford NA) are engaged in a design comp for the new global large car.

No, its not up to J Mays which drivetrain will be used, but he would be among the first to know. Whether the engine is transversely or longitudinally mounted makes a massive difference to the cars design and appearance. It makes fundamental changes to the entire cars proportions.

From an enthusiast point of view - AWD Falcon based on Taurus is an absolute disaster, and would spell the end of any real performance versions.

From a more general, pragmatic point of view, I can see this working really well for Ford. We'll hand the performance market on a platter to HSV, but maybe there’s more sales in the lower ends of the range. For the general public, AWD is perceived as a premium layout, and it could help position the Falcon in a more mainstream light than it is currently.

[Brazen]

So is the basic consensus that if the Falcon goes FWD/AWD it cant keep the V8? The fact they have just spent $40 mill on the new V8 then means that it wont go the FWD/AWD route..?

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Brazen

So is the basic consensus that if the Falcon goes FWD/AWD it cant keep the V8? The fact they have just spent $40 mill on the new V8 then means that it wont go the FWD/AWD route..?

I cant see them going to the effort and expense of engineering a transversely mounted V8 Taurus.

Maybe they'll start importing the Mustang and use the S/C V8 in that. Sounds ideal really.

[Perko]

If the next Falcon is AWD who says that it can't have a V8? Audi do a great job with it and surely Ford could get it right. At this stage it's all heresay until something is announced. Until then I'm not too concerned. I must admit I do have a chuckle when I read about the Yanks and this One Ford concept yet the only RWD platform that they haven't touched is the Mustang. A RWD platform that is crying for a better chassis set-up. Something that Ford Australia could help develop and share.

One good thing though. If they get rid of the V8, RWD and Falcon ute. Get your hands on the FGII as they may be worth morth money secondhand then brand new.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Perko

If the next Falcon is AWD who says that it can't have a V8?

Because the AWD system will be FWD-biased and based on the Taurus layout which means it will be a system with compromises.

I too have to wonder at the logic behind spending $40M on Coyote, $120M on EcoBoost and LPI and however much it is for the FG update when the Falcon is supposedly a futureless car.

[OnaMission]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

an awd gtp would certainly stop the journos whinging about a lack of traction.

I was actually thinking about this as i was reading this thread. We have a silver bullet now for an engine, but the chassis etc appears to be at its limits.

We/journo's/etc are now begging for a chassis that can handle the engine and utilise more of its potential....all of the reviews are more or less saying the same thing. Is it now going to be a case where we should 'be careful what we ask for' and we end up with an AWD based off the Taurus?

Interesting times...

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Because the AWD system will be FWD-biased and based on the Taurus layout which means it will be a system with compromises.

I too have to wonder at the logic behind spending $40M on Coyote, $120M on EcoBoost and LPI and however much it is for the FG update when the Falcon is supposedly a futureless car.

Exactly. Where is the Return on Investment there?

I think these journalists need to take a good hard look at the facts. Falcon is having the biggest investment on its platform (and engines) in years, and these investments won't be recouped overnight. If they kill off Falcon, this money might as well have been flushed down the toilet. Burela found a Business Case for everything that is about to be released, and none of these have room for a four year lifetime.

Coyote (Miami) alone is a long term deal. The EcoBoost is longer. Wake up people. Falcon is not going anywhere. RWD is not going anywhere.

[BroadyFord]

My main concern is whether or not any new Falcon will continue to be manufactured here.

If the Falcon is no longer built here, then why are we worried about whether or not it will be RWD, AWD or FWD?!? It will just mean another imported car that means nothing to us as Australians.

This quote from Kim Carr back in August is the only thing reassuring me at the moment:

"Senator Carr said he was certain that Australia would still have three manufacturers – Ford, Holden and Toyota – building cars in this country in 2020, although he could not specifically say that this would include engine production."

“I’m confident in the future of the three manufacturers being maintained here, in the full range – the full range – of capabilities, from design and engineering through to manufacturing,” Senator Carr told GoAuto.

[Polyal]

I could see the engine plant changing, but not going, just doing different work.

Either way I wish there was more accountability out there, sick of reading opinions and not facts.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

My main concern is whether or not any new Falcon will continue to be manufactured here.

If the Falcon is no longer built here, then why are we worried about whether or not it will be RWD, AWD or FWD?!? It will just mean another imported car that means nothing to us as Australians.

This quote from Kim Carr back in August is the only thing reassuring me at the moment:

"Senator Carr said he was certain that Australia would still have three manufacturers – Ford, Holden and Toyota – building cars in this country in 2020, although he could not specifically say that this would include engine production."

“I’m confident in the future of the three manufacturers being maintained here, in the full range – the full range – of capabilities, from design and engineering through to manufacturing,” Senator Carr told GoAuto.

Ford is currently, the only Profitable Australian manufacturer of cars. It can do this without any major export markets. Toyota is tied to the Middle East, and Holden is relying on Cruze.

I don't think Broadmeadows is going to close, but the products coming out of there may need to change.

[BroadyFord]

I'm also getting the feeling that it would be incredibly damaging to the federal government if Ford were to close Broadmeadows seeing as they have given them $6 billion of taxpayers money.

It also amazes me how these journos have forgotten about the government's car plan which has a strong chance of properly assisting the carmakers through their transitions.

[Road_Warrior]

If Detroit closes the Broadmeadows assembly plant, it would be like ripping the heart and soul out of Ford Australia.

[Brazen]

I dont think manufacturing here is at risk, more about what kind of Falcon will be built here.